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Post by textbender on Apr 30, 2008 18:09:40 GMT -5
I know Azula is evil to the core, to the point that a lot of people think she is more evil than her father Ozai. But in the finale trailer she is going crazy, losing control, and I am intrigued by the mirror scene, where she throws the brush at a reflection in it of her mother. I am sure the reflection is a hallucination, or she'd be aiming the projectile at the real person, not its reflection.
But I think that mirror symbolizes Azula's conscience and her feelings of guilt. Otherwise, why see her mother? I think the presence of her mother in her conscience (the mirror) is a symbol of the presence of some level of humanity that has been completely buried, because that is what Ursa represented with her admonitions. Thus, perhaps what she said in "The Beach" about feeling hurt that her own mother thought she was a monster (although "she was right of course") is important for her development as a character. The reason I think this might open a path for redemption (I am not saying Azula will take it, but perhaps she will glimpse it) is that the first step to do the right thing for her would be to realize and feel that she is doing the wrong thing. I don't see Ozai having this kind of self-doubt. So, the fact that Azula will have some crisis of conscience might perhaps serve to make her more human in the end? I'd love to see a melodramatic breakdown with Azula realizing that she hates herself. But what then?
The only problem is, B & M said Zuko develops / changes most as a character, so if Azula were to develop a conscience, it would definitely be a bigger change than Zuko's, who was good to begin with. So maybe the most we can hope for her is to end up in a stalemate, nonfunctionally insane.
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Post by montenak on Apr 30, 2008 18:38:04 GMT -5
Where trailer at?
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Post by gwhiz on Apr 30, 2008 19:52:50 GMT -5
well we can't say she'll developed more than zuko when she has only going to develop in a few episodes compared to zuko's 2 1/2 seasons of developing.
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Post by textbender on Apr 30, 2008 19:56:40 GMT -5
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Post by gambitia on Apr 30, 2008 20:24:20 GMT -5
I think if Azula does get the opportunity to redeem herself, she either won't take it, or she'll have a deathbed repentance. She's been set up as extremely evil and virtually irredeemable from the start aside from some flashes of humanity in "The Beach." I don't think she gets a happy ending. Redemption, possibly, but I doubt it. If anything, I think Bryke will play the "not born evil, but made evil" card.
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Post by ZamKenobi on Apr 30, 2008 21:02:05 GMT -5
I kind of agree with the idea that she'll either glimpse redemption and not take it or she'll have a deathbed repentence. Either way, I think she'll end up hating herself. I don't think she'll get a full redemption though for a lot of the reasons you've already listed. Good post.
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Post by .....:~~LordToph~~:...... on Apr 30, 2008 21:16:01 GMT -5
I hope azula will at least see that what zuko and aang are doing is right and what the FN are doing is wrong.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Apr 30, 2008 21:23:44 GMT -5
Before I delve into my highly negative answer, I'll pose a question of my own. Why do so many people WANT Azula to be redeemed? Is it not enough for her to remain a completely unlikable, despicable villain? I just want to know why there's a sudden rush of sympathy for this girl, when, not long ago, people were clamoring for the most violent death Nickelodeon would air. Does insanity -- or perceived insanity -- beget compassion from a hateful fanbase? We have known for a while that Azula has mental problems. Her lack of conscience: In The Avatar State, she ruthlessly toppled her own brother over and prepared to kill him, at point-black range, with a lethal dose of lightning, that only by the grace of Uncle Iroh did he survive. She regularly abused the turtleducks in the palace gardens, as strongly hinted at in Zuko Alone. She brutally attacked her own uncle in The Chase, with a fireblast en route to his heart. She struck down the Avatar in The Crossroads Of Destiny with no remorse; nay, a smirk on her face. Her lack of empathy: In Return To Omashu, she felt no compassion whatsoever for the plight of Mai's parents. She was willing to let enemy forces injure or kill Tom-Tom in a hostage exchange. She forced Mai to make a split-second, life-or-possibly-death decision: to sacrifice her baby brother, 'lest the rest of her family be in peril. She couldn't have cared less about her uncle's loss in Zuko Alone, only thinking about her father's possible rise in status, should Iroh himself die in battle. She regularly disregarded her mother's teachings and focused solely on political ascension. All of this suggests she's a sociopath, and these people -- real-life or fictional -- are incurable. You can't create a conscience. You can't create empathy. These are things inherent in the personality -- that, if absent, cannot be replicated or be instilled in the psyche. In fact, some scientists believe sociopathy is the result of faulty wiring, if you will, inside the brain. Certain sectors develop improperly, incompletely, or don't manifest at all. As you can imagine, going inside the brain and trying to hardwire it in order to mimic empathetic behavior is impractical and dangerous. If treatment is sought, some sociopaths make progress and can function relatively well within the confines of society, but they can never be cured. Azula is too far gone... and she should remain that way. Anything less will undermine Zuko's -- and even Iroh's -- redemption. A sudden turnaround -- and it would be sudden -- should not eclipse what has taken episodes ( and, in Iroh's case, years ) to realize. I don't think it should be attempted, nor hinted at. firefan: Is there a reason you're using my signature?
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Apr 30, 2008 21:41:41 GMT -5
I really don't think we need a new thread for this, especially in the spoilers board, yeah? We aren't talking about spoilers. The trailer was sent out by the creators for everyone to see. I don't see why we couldn't just talk about the trailer here, in this ever so famous thread: distanthorizons.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=characters&action=display&thread=147Heh, looking back it seems that grandmaster deleted every single post he made in that thread...which kind of makes some of the debates hard to follow ;p
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Post by textbender on Apr 30, 2008 22:38:47 GMT -5
Well, I don't know, if a mod wants to move this discussion to the trailer discussion, that's ok. I felt it was a theory that should stay in the same Spoilers section with said thread (some people feel spoiled by trailers). But I was very curious what other people thought about this topic, which is why I posted it as a thread/topic rather than a post/comment.
FireLordAzula: I agree with what you say, but it's the trailer that makes me wonder; Azula sees her mother in the mirror, goes crazy, cries, throws her brush. If there's not hint of a suppressed conscience there, what is it?
Yes, this makes redemption not possible for her. But how about crisis if not redemption? I mean a crisis of the conscience. She'll probably fall in some abyss as a result, not survive beautifully like Iroh and Zuko. But what if she will actually see herself in a new light, only choose to hate herself and the whole world (a bit of a Harry Potter thought... makes me think of the impossibility for Voldemort to be redeemed; not quite impossible, Harry gave him the chance; but some people are so evil that the attempt to put their soul back together through repentance would be too painful and would destroy them; I wonder if we'll see something like this with Azula.)
Thanks, Suzume!
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Post by rysenkari on May 1, 2008 0:55:47 GMT -5
Oh, but I wish it would. It's really gotten to the point where I don't care about the rest of the story, I just want to see Azula redeemed SOMEHOW. If this means 90% of the fandom implodes, so be it. I just feel too sorry for her. She's 14. I don't care if it's implausable, or if it ruins Zuko's redemption, I just so badly want to see Azula redeemed. >_<
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 1, 2008 1:49:30 GMT -5
How is her going berserk on a mirror a sign of a conscience? All it does is show she has issues with her mom. I bet a lot of crazy murderers had issues with their parents.
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Post by textbender on May 1, 2008 9:05:02 GMT -5
I just found this thread: forums.avatarspirit.net/index.php?topic=7971.225 (Weird: proudnintendfan reply #240 posted something about the mirror at almost the same time that I started this thread. Dun, dun, dun...) Something crossed my mind: Azula indirectly (and probably unintentionally) saved her brother as a kid. She heard the plan between Azulon and Ozai, and she could have kept quiet and let them get on with it. But instead she taunted Zuko, and thus Ursa found out and took action to protect him. I don't know if she meant to give Zuko any amount of real warning. It could be she regretted that she couldn't resist taunting him. But it's possible to speculate about it. Yiceman: but a lot of real life crazy murderers are not fictional super villains. Name an absolute, irredeemable fictional villain who has haunting visions of a good person whose approval they have admitted they want, and who cries and loses control before this vision. We know so far in Canon what Ursa represents for Azula: someone whose approval she wants, someone who thinks she is a monster, and someone whose lack of approval "hurts" her. The fact that Azula is capable of feeling any amount of hurt at all at her mother seeing her as a monster shows she is not as absolutely evil as someone like, say, Voldemort. Although it's a little weird how she said "she's right of course." It's almost as if she wishes her mother didn't disapprove of monsters, but was more like her dad, Ozai. Anyway, I never thought Azula would crave anyone's approval... The fact that she needs or remembers needing it makes her more vulnerable. I just wonder if we'll feel sorry for her in the end. EDIT: just changed my spelling of canon.
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Post by ZamKenobi on May 1, 2008 9:35:02 GMT -5
Anyway, I never thought Azula would crave anyone's approval... The fact that she needs or remembers needing it makes her more vulnerable. I just wonder if we'll feel sorry for her in the end. I'm sure we'll end up feeling sorry for her even if she's not redeemed. I honestly think Azula isn't necessarily the person to crave approval but crave control over every situation. She has to have everyone around her fear her enough so that she knows what they're going to do at all times, and the people she can't get to fear her (her father, mother, Zuko) she has to either manipulate (Zuko) or find some form of approval. I originally thought that she was going to try to take the thrown from Ozai but I'm not so sure anymore. Anyway, that might be where her need for approval comes in. Her father thinks she's the perfect daughter so giving her what she wants usually coincides with what he wants, but to her mother she's the opposite and it will probably come back to haunt her at some point. Well, we know it will.
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Azula's Flames
Avatar Korra
Your banished, and you and you and....
Posts: 1,092
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Post by Azula's Flames on May 1, 2008 11:26:11 GMT -5
I dont think we will see a redemption for Azula, thats Zuko's story. She can serve as a parellell story of Zuko, what could have happened to him if he didnt choose to join Aang. I compleatly agree with Fire Lord Azula (as usual) the girl is a certifyable sociopath and what she craves in life is control and it looks like shes going to start loosing it pretty soon. She thrives in fear and power and has always wanted to be firelord. Now she has got that but not quite in the way that she invisioned, shes a puppet subordinate to her father. She may attack Ozai, not for the greater good but out of anger of being denied power and Ozai will immediatly shut her down. The reason that shes angry/upset at the vision of her mother is not out of guilt. I think she hates her mother because she was the one person who she could not control or manipulate. Ursa is the one person who knew exactly what Azula was and Azula didnt like it. I have a little theory that when Azula sees Ursa in the mirror she will flip out and she herself as her mother leading to the blue flame crazula (see icon<) and I think she will cut off her own hair to loose this resemblace because look at the back of her hair in this pic (someone else will cut her bangs in a fight)
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