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Post by textbender on May 1, 2008 11:50:33 GMT -5
Eowyn: It looks like she is wearing the same thing in both pictures... I think it's a good idea that the two images are related. But maybe the picture from your sig is not in the same room. With all that fire in the background, I wonder if it's not in the throne room, but somehow she has managed to turn those flames blue. Maybe she threw the brush at the mirror, left the room (symbolically shutting down her conscience) and walked into the throne room, choosing evil and power over the brief glimpse of good.
About control: Perhaps all she wanted was to be able to control her mother, but I would disagree that Ursa is the only person she could never control. There are plenty of people she can't control before she goes crazy. She looks up to Ursa for some reason, she cares about being able to control her. For example, I don't think she was ever able to control Iroh, nor did she care (she underestimated him, too). But what can Ursa give Azula? Ozai can give her the throne, but what can Ursa give her? Ursa is a good, loving person, who also has morals and principles, although she is willing to become "vicious and traitorous" in order to defend her young (like the turtleduck mommy). I don't think who Ursa is, what kind of person she is, is irrelevant to Azula's need to control her (or in my own terms, her desire to have her approval). I think Ursa represents the conscience that Azula tries to shut down, but she will have a glimpse of it (and yet she'll try to destroy it).
It's true that Ursa is probably the only one who has ever chastised Azula, told her she was doing something wrong, and whom Azula was never able to control (at least, not overtly; she was certainly capable of manipulating her: "don't you think siblings should play together, mommy?"), yet I think that also makes Ursa a symbol for Azula's conscience. That is partially how we develop a conscience, by internalizing outside figures who can keep us in check.
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Azula's Flames
Avatar Korra
Your banished, and you and you and....
Posts: 1,092
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Post by Azula's Flames on May 1, 2008 12:31:44 GMT -5
Well I dont think that her lack of control of Iroh would really matter to her. Firstly he was usually off to war when she was young then when he did come back her father was the Firelord and she was 1 step closer to what she wanted in life. After that she thought he was just a fat lazy old man then he went off with Zuko. When she finally saw him again years later she wasnt too happy that he could redirect her lightening and within a few week she had him in prision.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 1, 2008 14:26:17 GMT -5
I just found this thread: forums.avatarspirit.net/index.php?topic=7971.225 (Weird: proudnintendfan reply #240 posted something about the mirror at almost the same time that I started this thread. Dun, dun, dun...) Something crossed my mind: Azula indirectly (and probably unintentionally) saved her brother as a kid. She heard the plan between Azulon and Ozai, and she could have kept quiet and let them get on with it. But instead she taunted Zuko, and thus Ursa found out and took action to protect him. I don't know if she meant to give Zuko any amount of real warning. It could be she regretted that she couldn't resist taunting him. But it's possible to speculate about it. Yiceman: but a lot of real life crazy murderers are not fictional super villains. Name an absolute, irredeemable fictional villain who has haunting visions of a good person whose approval they have admitted they want, and who cries and loses control before this vision. We know so far in Cannon what Ursa represents for Azula: someone whose approval she wants, someone who thinks she is a monster, and someone whose lack of approval "hurts" her. The fact that Azula is capable of feeling any amount of hurt at all at her mother seeing her as a monster shows she is not as absolutely evil as someone like, say, Voldemort. Although it's a little weird how she said "she's right of course." It's almost as if she wishes her mother didn't disapprove of monsters, but was more like her dad, Ozai. Anyway, I never thought Azula would crave anyone's approval... The fact that she needs or remembers needing it makes her more vulnerable. I just wonder if we'll feel sorry for her in the end. It sounds like you made that all up so your call for an example is rediculously specific. ;p But your call is for an iredeemable villain who is still haunted by someone they care about, yes? Pfft, easy. How about examples from a couple popular shows out there? Sylar from Heroes missed his mom, went back to see her, ended up accidently killing her. He's not exactly close to redemption. This one guy from Lost's girlfriend got killed, and he went nuts and tried to kill one of the main characters for revenge. www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGPgFMqrWv8It didn't make him a sympathetic character though, and he remained the primary source of direct antagonism and villainy until he was killed in the next episode. Theodore Bagwell from Pirson Break was in jail for murder and rape (of both men and women). He had been dating a woman before he was imprisoned who turned him in when she found out who he was. So when he breaks out, he goes and kidnaps her and her kids and tries to force them to be his "perfect family". I don't much foresee his character getting a happily ever after. And those are just from big name TV shows. You want books? Too many to name. There's thousands of characters out there more complex than Azula who never served as anything but antagonists. Maybe you might have a point if Azula handled these issues in a normal way. But she goes nuts and apparently burns up her room. All this shows me is that Azula's character is finally slipping off the deep end and falling into open insanity.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on May 1, 2008 16:44:39 GMT -5
FireLordAzula: I agree with what you say, but it's the trailer that makes me wonder; Azula sees her mother in the mirror, goes crazy, cries, throws her brush. If there's not hint of a suppressed conscience there, what is it? I don't think flipping out and throwing a hairbrush at a mirror equates to the sudden attainment of a conscience. Rather, I think it's out of frustration. Ursa saw Azula for the monster she truly is; never did she pay tribute to or praise her daughter's prodigal talents. This is something Azula never understood. Why lavish attention upon a "failure" ( Zuko ), while chastising a prodigy ( Azula )? She likely felt rejected; ignored; sleighted -- it was a blow to her ego. Ursa never stood in awe or kowtowed to her, in the way that virtually everyone else did... and Azula, being Azula, resents it to this very day. Oh, but I wish it would. It's really gotten to the point where I don't care about the rest of the story, I just want to see Azula redeemed SOMEHOW. If this means 90% of the fandom implodes, so be it. I just feel too sorry for her. What makes you feel sorry for her? She's a horrible person. I'm just wondering. I feel sorry for her, but only because I'm a huge fan of hers. In the same breath, I believe she's getting everything she deserves -- and this is from someone who collects what scant amount of Azula merchandise exists. I acknowledge -- and celebrate -- her status as an irredeemable villain. That's what I believe she was always meant to be. Age is irrelevant. A child who murders is still a murderer. I'm sure many of us have heard of older siblings suffocating their younger brethren with pillows, or putting them in lethal choke-holds, because they despised the new arrival for detracting from their parents' attention. These children took lives; they are killers; and they did these deeds with malicious intent. Their age shouldn't excuse them. Too often are they given a pass because "they didn't know any better". Oh, yes, they did. They wanted to "be rid of their sibling(s)" forever. Rarely do these children go on to experience remorse for their actions. I don't care if it's implausable, or if it ruins Zuko's redemption, I just so badly want to see Azula redeemed. >_< Well, a lot of us care about Zuko's hardpressed redemption, as well as the expansion and conclusion of the storyline proper. We feel Azula's redemption would: make no sense, undermine the struggle and sacrifice of those who actually worked to achieve redemption ( because you have to want to be redeemed to be redeemed ), create loopholes within what has been an overall successfully-maintained storyline, and ruin one of the finest animated villains to ever exist. You're free to feel as you do! But many of us would vehemently disagree. Maybe this is a bit random -- but, in addition to the Spanish/Portuguese word for "blue", azul, Azula's name is a play on the Sanskrit word for "demon", asura. Names are important in works of fiction... they often define a character's personality, or seek to accentuate certain traits. I... doubt they would name this character after a word for "demon", if she were to eventually attain redemption.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 1, 2008 16:53:17 GMT -5
^I think we're definitely not supposed to feel sorry for her..."Pity" is the word.
Because Azula is not a victum of bad deeds done to her.
I hate when people try to claim that Ursa treated Azula unfairly. We saw in Zuko Alone that that is not the case at all. Ursa scolds a child when it does a bad thing. She scolded Zuko for throwing bread at the turtile-ducks. He was good enough to feel sorry about it though, so she forgave him.
Azula, on the other hand, was nothing but wicked in that episode. So we see Ursa scold her...because she's a good parent. She doesn't let Azula get away with being a brat. Any good parent does that.
So no, Azula was anything but wrongfully treated. Zuko said that everyone loves her and admires her, and she clearly has her father's respect. She's had a good life.
She's just mean and crazy.
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Post by Draco Argenteus on May 1, 2008 17:43:03 GMT -5
I 100% agree with everythign that Fire Lord Azula has said. Took the words right out of my mouth keyboard.
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Post by textbender on May 1, 2008 19:06:58 GMT -5
Princess AzulaOk, that's a good argument. If Azula is a demon, ain’t nothing to redeem there. But she’s a human being, so how about she’s possessed by a demon? Ozai’s influence? So maybe she could be exorcised, but it could cause her death. Just saying. I didn't say "sudden attainment of a conscience" but "glimpse of a conscience." Attainment already sounds like the conscience is in full bloom. When you put it like that, yes, it sounds ridiculous. I didn't say it's the flipping out and throwing the brush that I equate with the glimpse of a conscience. It's the presence of Ursa in Azula's mind at all, and the tears in crazy Azula's eyes. Azula wants her cake, and she wants to eat it too. She wants to be a monster, and she wants her mother to love it. Everything you say fits with how Azula has felt up to now about her mother. But it does not explain the intensity of that mirror scene. I do think we'll hear Ursa say something, and whatever Ursa says will be a reflection of Azula's inner conflict. What is happening in that scene looks like an inner conflict to me. I don't know what you see in it. Azula flipping out because of ego issues is of course a possibility. She is already begun to lose battles, and she has lost her friends. If she has just lost let's say her first battle as FireLord Azula, and then she sees Ursa saying something like: "You can't win, Azula, because you are on the wrong side, and you are therefore weak" or something of that nature, yes, that would be self-doubt only of the nature of what gives one power, and she may be angry that her choice to be evil has actually made her less powerful. But it's also possible Ursa will say something like: "You were capable of killing your own brother. You were ready to allow him to fall in the boiling lake. What kind of monster are you?" And that would not be the real Ursa, but a hallucination (if she were present, Azula would throw the brush at the real thing, not at a mirror), or, in other words, Azula's own mind speaking. Wouldn't that be a budding conscience? I remember how Zuko was practically crazy after he let Appa go, the fever and turmoil he had to endure, the awakening, and yet he still went down the bad route at the Crossroads of Destiny. I just think that Azula being a teenager, she ought to at least also be offered a Crossroads of Destiny of her own, demon or no demon. And in her case, I think the Mirror scene might be it. But what I can concede is that she will choose wrong, just like Zuko, and not unexpectedly so, but get no more second chances like Zuko did. For Azula deserves no second chances. I'd give her a first chance though. And given she's been driven by an evil nature all along, I'm not sure she's ever had a "choice" if you know what I mean. I'd like that Mirror to be her choice scene. Here, now you have a glimpse that you could go down a different path, you see that possibility, will you take it? So, according to you, the Mirror scene will go something like this? ;D Azula: “Mirror, Mirror on the wall, who is the most powerful of them all?” This right after Ozai has made her Firelord, and she feels all triumphant, and stares at her own amazing reflection full of self-satisfaction. And then suddenly Ursa appears in the mirror and answers: “You are powerful, yes, my daughter, but Zuko is still more powerful than you are, for he has learned the true way of Firebending from the dragon masters, who would never, ever, ever in a million years teach you, never deem you worthy, and so you will never reach his level, never catch up, and he and the seven Avatar dwarfs will kick your a--, bwahahahahahaha!” Azula: “Shut up! Shut up! Shut, shut, shut.... up!” Throwing the brush. And, to complement that, some fanart by motterhorn: motterhorn.deviantart.com/art/avatar-seven-dwarfs-74441650
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 1, 2008 20:15:10 GMT -5
^I think "Azula is possessed by a demon" is a little out there, don't you think?
I don't think that Azula will even reach those crossroads you speak of. I don't think the choice will ever even be available for her. Why? Because she would prevent it.
What would this choice be, anyway? To help the Avatar? That's waaaaayyy too out there at this point. To help Zuko? Phaw.
The mirror scene, in my opinion, will only exists to show just how far Azula's craziness is going. Anything else would just be a sudden 180 for her character. What DEFINES her is how twisted she is.
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Post by textbender on May 1, 2008 20:59:13 GMT -5
I was talking symbolically about demon possession. Did you see the "Ozai's influence" part? The Poster Fire Lord Azula talked about the meaning of Asura being demon, meaning Azula is irredeemable, just like a demon. And I say that we can't say Azula is a demon because she is a human being. We can say she is symbolically possessed by a demon (which I equated with her father's evil influence). And if she were to get exorcised (i.e. if she were to try to rid herself of this influence) she might just rip out a part of herself as well, and die in the process.
I think her choice would be to step down and leave and not cause more harm. Not join anyone, just leave on her own, lead a kind of Jun life. Anyway, that is the best I could imagine possible for her. I don't imagine her joining Aang or Zuko. So no, I don't think I'm out there, because I never said those things. Azula doesn't have to start doing good to stop doing bad. That's asking too much.
But how do you mean she would prevent the crossroads from happening? If my argument is that the crossroads is Ursa's presence in Azula's mind, she hasn't prevented it from happening. But I agree, there is this whole theme of Azula's craziness, and the Mirror scene doesn't have to illustrate more than just that, Azula losing control. I'm just moved by Ursa's presence in that mirror. Azula can lose control in many ways, but why in the presence of her mother? Unless she has internalized her mother only as a symbol of disapproval, with none of the reasons for that disapproval. And since she is losing on every front (she's already begun losing), she may hate herself so much that she sees Ursa, the only person who saw her as a monster and whose opinion of her hurt. But even so, I think there's Ursa's presence illustrates more than that.
On the side, I thought I had included a response to your earlier post, but it looks like I erased it while typing. It was long at first, then it got progressively shorter. But now I don't see it anywhere. I was just saying that the examples didn't illustrate what I had in mind, i.e. examples of a crisis of conscience, of self-doubt, and I felt those other shows were also too mature in content to have their villains compared to Avatar villains.
But I just want to nuance my belief here: when I talk about redemption for Azula, it is completely relative to how evil she is. For her to grow the most minuscule bud of a conscience would for me constitute a redemption for her. She would still not be admirable, but she would be less than absolute evil. But I am sure it's debatable, who is more evil, Azula or Ozai. I am sure either option would be interesting. I am not so enamored of evil Azula that I wish no redemption for her. What I mean when I say "Any chance of redemption for Crazula" is a redemption at her level, not a redemption at Zuko's level.
I mean, Ozai was going to kill Zuko, and it is Azula's warning that saved him. I don't care what Azula's motivation was in telling him (I know motivation is important, I'm thinking especially of Ender's Game), but the fact remains that without Azula's warning, Zuko would not be alive today. That is what I mean also by the demon possession. It was her father who wanted Zuko dead first, not Azula. Azula perhaps wants it now, too, but maybe that's the "possession" bit at work. Azula likes eaves dropping. How much has she been watching her father and listening to him? When she was saying all that to Ursa about her uncle, cousin, and grandfather, how much was it her own imagination or and how much was she parroting her father? Ursa says "we do not speak that way" but it seems to me it is very possible Azula heard her father speaking that way, possibly even to her, personally. And we see how imitation works at that age when Zuko throws the bread at the turtle duck. But I don't deny it is very likely Azula dreamed all that up on her own. It's just interesting how alike she and her father are, and maybe that's not just nature, maybe it's also nurture.
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Post by rysenkari on May 1, 2008 21:07:41 GMT -5
Of course she's a horrible person and deserves to go through some psychological agony, but I hope she comes out of it a better person. Better than than dead, or even evil. I've seen so many people worse than Azula redeemed and still enjoyed them for the villains they were (of course, most of them were video game villains, so all I had to do to experience their villainy again was replay through the game).
What about child soldiers in South America and Africa? Azula was brought up the same way (okay, she had more comfortable living conditions). Anyone would develop heartlessness and sadism when brought up like that. The only thing that saved Zuko from becoming as bad as Azula was his Oedipus complex. I wouldn't want to kill child soldiers and Azula's the same way.
I know, I know. I'm just selfish like that, when I'm watching a film or a show or playing a game I want the storyline to go MY way, even if 90% of the fandom would hate it. The only thing I'd hate about it would be having to defend the unpopular storyline choice to everyone else. But yeah, like I said, I don't care if every other Avatar fan would riot, if Azula were redeemed I'd sit in my chair with a big smile on my face. ^_^
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Post by textbender on May 1, 2008 21:29:22 GMT -5
rysenkari Yeah, me too. She is more than evil crazy in that scene, she is anguish crazy. I don't think she can be fully redeemed in the show given that the creators said that Zuko is the character who changes/develops most, something like that. But I don't think Azula having some bit of conscience would change that in any way. Even if we won't see her become good, I hope we'll see her struggle with her evil.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on May 1, 2008 21:50:31 GMT -5
I 100% agree with everythign that Fire Lord Azula has said. Took the words right out of my mouth keyboard. I'm glad you feel that way, Draco! textbender: But a suppressed conscience is also highly questionable. Why does Ursa's appearance in a mirror draw it out -- should it exist -- and why now? Why not back then, when Ursa was a physical presence in her life? What makes a vision in a mirror more powerful than the real article? My core argument is that a conscience can't suddenly "appear"; and that I find it highly doubtful that it would be so fantastically hidden for fourteen years, with no indication of existence whatsoever. Nothing has made Azula second-guess herself, up to this scene. For her entire life, she abused people and animals without remorse. I find this "repression" hard to swallow, because she's been painted as a firmly unapologetic character for the duration of the show thus far. Ordinarily, hints are given well in advance of such a monumental revelation. The appearance of her mother in her bedroom mirror makes her question her existentialism? It's very hard to judge a scene without knowing anything about it, other than what we perceive with our eyes. It's a silent sequence of events, not given vocals... probably intentional, on the part of the creators, so as not to spoil something so apparently groundbreaking. I do think it has to do with ego issues, as opposed to some repression of a conscience. The former fits more snugly with what we know of Azula -- that said, it's my natural choice. But it's also possible Ursa will say something like: "You were capable of killing your own brother. You were ready to allow him to fall in the boiling lake. What kind of monster are you?" And that would not be the real Ursa, but a hallucination (if she were present, Azula would throw the brush at the real thing, not at a mirror), or, in other words, Azula's own mind speaking. Wouldn't that be a budding conscience? A conscience is defined as "the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action"; or "the complex of ethical and moral principles that controls or inhibits the actions or thoughts of an individual". So, not necessarily. I propose that it could be her subconscious thoughts at work, which hold neutrality. Something evidently triggers a vision of Ursa. But the appearance of this apparition could be the catalyst of a memory -- something Azula does not want to relive or revisit. She would then hold no feelings of remorse, but those of anger, betrayal, frustration, jealousy, etc., as she remembers the indignity she felt during her younger years in the presence of her mother. Those emotions are potentially strong enough to make her fling a hairbrush at a mirror. A conscience implies that she would experience uncharacteristic regret or guilt over her misdeeds. I can't see that from her; not until proven wrong by something within the show, 'lest it even come to pass. In other words, I believe it to have more to do with her subconsciousness, not a conscience. As mentally unstable as she apparently is, feverish visions are certainly not out of the question... nor is her violent reaction. I really think it's meant to illustrate how off the deep end she's fallen. Of course she's a horrible person and deserves to go through some psychological agony, but I hope she comes out of it a better person. Better than than dead, or even evil. I've seen so many people worse than Azula redeemed and still enjoyed them for the villains they were (of course, most of them were video game villains, so all I had to do to experience their villainy again was replay through the game). Ah. I can't imagine such a forgiving fate for her, but I would never begrudge someone the desire to see it. What about child soldiers in South America and Africa? Azula was brought up the same way (okay, she had more comfortable living conditions). Anyone would develop heartlessness and sadism when brought up like that. The only thing that saved Zuko from becoming as bad as Azula was his Oedipus complex. I wouldn't want to kill child soldiers and Azula's the same way. Those are child soldiers, as you said. They're trained to fight and kill; as such, they're just as guilty of taking lives as their adult counterparts. While Azula was unquestionably brought up in much the same way, what separates her from the grand majority of those kids is her enjoyment of what she's doing. The children in South America and Africa, I believe, act out of necessity, not pleasure. Azula intermingles them in sadistic fashion. And, like those murderous siblings I cited earlier, she feels no remorse for her actions. Also, I don't believe Zuko would have been "just as bad" as Azula, had he not enjoyed the love and guidance of his mother and uncle. Sociopathy is, to some varying degree, an inborn behavior. I doubt Zuko had the capacity for such cruelty. He wouldn't have been a very nice person, needless to say -- but doubtful would he have reached Azula-like sadism if left to his own devices. I know, I know. I'm just selfish like that, when I'm watching a film or a show or playing a game I want the storyline to go MY way, even if 90% of the fandom would hate it. The only thing I'd hate about it would be having to defend the unpopular storyline choice to everyone else. But yeah, like I said, I don't care if every other Avatar fan would riot, if Azula were redeemed I'd sit in my chair with a big smile on my face. ^_^ To an extent, I think most of us are guilty of that. I know I am. I want Azula to live out her potential as a top-tier villain, and anything less would disappoint me, in some way. So I do understand where you're coming from...
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 1, 2008 21:55:50 GMT -5
You're asking for a pretty impossible and not entirely relevant example there, textbender.
I'm supposed to find a character who's complex enough to be a villain who has a crisis of conscience and self-doubt, but I have to reference a kid's show on the same level as Avatar O.~
Well, first of all...you're completely and entirely making up the crisis of conscience and self-doubt part. We don't know what the mirror scene is about.
Secondly, I don't see how you can ask for an example of a complex character and tell me I can't look in shows that are more complex than Avatar ;p
Anyway. Ozai metaphorically possessing Azula. I don't see how that works, even as a metaphor. Why? Because a possession implies that Azula's natural and normal state of being is under forcible control.
What is Azula's natural and normal state of being? Wicked.
We've seen her as she is now, we've seen her as a child, and she is and always has been like she is now.
She HAS no personality outside of her current behavior. Ozai's influence is not overwriting her own...that's how she naturally acts. That's how she's always been.
There IS no Azula outside of that. Therefore, there is nothing under that which could resist any outside influence.
How could Azula throw of her father's influence, when she agrees and enjoys everything he is and has taught her to be? She's like her father because she CHOOSES to be, and he's who she CHOSE to take after.
Your idea of a "possessions" leads one to believe that she was an innocent victim with her own unique personality who was forced to change by Ozai. That is not the case.
Azula, step down and leave? Could there possibly be an ending LESS satisfying for her character? After all she's done in this story? To have her just LEAVE? Gak...I threw up in my mouth a little.
Could you imagine if Zhao had just put the moon spirit back and left the North Pole at the end of the first season? What a horrible ending that would be. The villain, just like the hero, has to go the whole nine yards at the end. And as many of us have noticed, Azula is a more personal and visible villain to all of us than Ozai is.
What I mean by Azula preventing her own crossroads from happening is that there is nothing for her down the other road. What does Azula want? What is her motivator? Power.
Ozai has just named her Fire Lord. What waits for her down the other path? What POSSIBLE motivation could she have for giving it all up and leaving everything behind to live a life with nothing? She has no motivation to change. Why would she even consider it?
Now, what would redemption at Azula's level require her to do, exactly?
P.S. I hated Ender's Game >.<
So much....
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Post by montenak on May 1, 2008 22:15:02 GMT -5
I still don't know where trailer at.
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Post by montenak on May 1, 2008 22:16:56 GMT -5
Azula is going down psycho. she is going to accidentally kill herself and battle and that will be the end of that.
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