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Post by textbender on May 5, 2008 8:40:54 GMT -5
SpiritBender I don't know if you meant this to be funny, but I laughed. yicemanI don't think there is a big possibility for redemption for Azula, but I think there's some possibility for some redemption. This was my original post. I haven't changed my view: You ask "to what purpose"? Well, first of all, I did not come to the trailer with my mind all made up about what end I wanted for Azula. It was the "evidence" in the trailer that got me thinking that maybe something more profound was in store for her than being the two-dimensional villain she is. And since in this type of show villains do tend to be two-dimensional (i.e. all evil, no glimpse of good), I wondered if some amount of redemption was possible if Azula develops a third dimension... Now that I've seen Ursa in that mirror, I can't shake the impression it has left on me, which is that Azula will gain some glimpse of a conscience, making her slightly more human. I can accept the argument that Zuko is the one who is supposed to be redeemed and it wouldn't work to have that same story for Azula. What I can't accept, until I see it that is, is that Ursa's presence has nothing to do with self-doubt in Azula's mind, with a glimpse of a conscience, and is only there to reinforce her evil insanity, her drive for absolute power, her ego. I think it would be very interesting if Azula gets a Crossroads of Destiny choice like Zuko did, and like Zuko chooses wrong the first time, but gets no second choices. What would have been the purpose? To show that at some point, we all have free will. I think that is a better lesson than showing us that some of us are just born monsters, and can't do anything about it, because we never even get the idea to be different. It would take off some of the edge of our enjoyment to see her go down, because there would be an element of pity there. But I don't know if that is so bad.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on May 5, 2008 16:17:30 GMT -5
Yet your "evidence" is 80% speculation. A brief scene that shows Azula breaking a mirror says little of what she will do.
You say it is a sign of conscience, meaning that she may be feeling empathy for others and some sort of goodwill toward the common man.
Where do you get this? Where do you get conscience from?
Self doubt I can understand. She's clearly having some issues in that scene. To me, it looks like rage and frustration. Those hardly seem tears of grief.
But let's look at the scene and try to figure out where oh where conscience might exist in it.
So, Azula is in her room. Ursa shows up, whether as some sort of memory-induced phantom in a mirror, or the real deal.
We can all figure the sort of things Ursa would have to say to Azula...you're a monster, yadda yadda, yadda.
Now, if you ask me, a sign of conscience might be Azula accepting and considering this criticism. But what does she do? She smashes Ursa's image. She symbolically destroys her mother...in essence, her good side and conscience.
So, to me, it appears she outright REJECTS whatever message her mother might carry.
Is that what you meant by "crossroads?" Because I could see that. Azula is presented with an opportunity, and openly rejects it.
What I CAN'T agree with is the idea that Azula would even CONSIDER the alternative choice. You worded it as if the choice would be equally as difficult for her as it was for Zuko in CoD. I don't agree with that. I cannot see her even giving it two seconds of thought.
Why? Because that's the difference between making us feel sorry for her as a tragic character, and making us realize that, hey, she made her choice, she's not a victim, and now she should be expected to deal with the consequences of her actions.
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on May 5, 2008 19:51:16 GMT -5
but in that same vain, so is yours Oh, and welcome textbender! It's great having another person on board for the whole "Azula redemption" thing. Your arguments are very well thought out as are your responses and brought up really excellent points
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Post by textbender on May 5, 2008 20:44:17 GMT -5
Thanks kaibasgirl. I think yiceman would probably say that he is basing his comments on the evidence throughout the show, so that his speculation is more justified than mine. But I'll let him answer. yicemanI don't think it is so predictable what Ursa would say, and I'd like to see more specific speculation about it. I think or at least hope it will be very interesting for the development of Azula's character. Yes, if the criticism were from the real person. That criticism has already happened, and Azula appears to have completely blown it off. However, if the Ursa in the mirror is a hallucination of Azula's (and that is my belief), then whatever "Ursa" says is in fact something that Azula is saying to herself, so that in fact it is "self criticism." It is possible that Azula is so evil and crazy that she can only criticize herself morally during a bout of insanity. Still, there would be a "good self" in Azula criticizing her "bad self" and, to imitate uncle Iroh, Azula wold need to look hard to decide which is her "true self." So it really all hinges on what Ursa is saying. If it has to do only with power, etc, as in the Witch and the Mirror above, then yes, there is no conscience there. But if Ursa is saying something else, even calling her a monster, and Ursa is a hallucination, then Azula is calling herself a monster, i.e. Azula is developing a conscience. To me a conscience is just that, self-criticism (of a moral nature). At least, that is how it begins. It needs to be followed through with action, and that part may not come so easily to Azula. But in the mirror scene it looks like she really cares about what it is that her mother is saying, unlike her attitude in the past. Of course, this could be because she is losing the battle, and in the past she felt invincible. Still... It all depends on what Ursa is saying (if she is saying something, but I expect or hope she will). Azula rejecting the advice wouldn't mean she never developed a conscience at all. After all, Zuko made his bad choice when he had a conscience. It would only mean that she is so far gone that she cannot imagine herself being different without self-destructing. She identifies so much with her bad self, that she can't listen to her "good" self. And that good self doesn't have to have been there to begin with. Even if it is only an interiorization of her mother, it is something.
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on May 5, 2008 20:50:19 GMT -5
Thanks kaibasgirl. I think yiceman would probably say that he is basing his comments on the evidence throughout the show, so that his speculation is more justified than mine. But I'll let him answer. ROFL! You know what? That sounds exactly like what he'd say XD I'm giving you karma for that ^^
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Post by cybertron log on May 5, 2008 22:36:43 GMT -5
For some reason this reminds me of the situation in Marvel's Avengers universe, after Iron Man comes out on top of the civil war. Right now there's a Skrull invasion where a shapeshifting alien race is slowly taking over Earth, and apparently some people think that Iron Man's recent appalling and rather "villainous" behavior is atributed to him actually being a Skrull trying to disrupt order. But the majority of the readers say that's stupid, Iron Man needs to be held accountable for his actions which includes the death of Captain America.
Marvel and Avatar aren't exactly same but I just happen to see a few parallels. I can't ever imagine Azula being redeemed, because it's just not possible for a character like her. She and Ozai are the epitome of the current warlike Fire Nation, and since we all know Ozai wouldn't be redeemed by the end of the show, why would she? I can see her being granted with a chance to turn back but she's gone too far and who's to say she's going to give it up for a philosophy she clearly doesn't believe in, which is the Avatar's?
I think Ursa's apperance is that chance to reconsider her entire life, and by throwing the brush at the mirror and shattering it, she's sealed her fate.
In a way, that is excellent character development. Not all characters need to be redeemed.
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Post by username on May 5, 2008 23:11:22 GMT -5
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on May 6, 2008 1:47:39 GMT -5
Thanks kaibasgirl. I think yiceman would probably say that he is basing his comments on the evidence throughout the show, so that his speculation is more justified than mine. But I'll let him answer. ROFL! You know what? That sounds exactly like what he'd say XD I'm giving you karma for that ^^ Nyuck nyuck nyuck ;p But hey, honestly...that's pretty much it. Remember that "rejected" kataang kiss from the trailer? One person could speculate that it's the end of kataang as we know it, another could speculate that it's just some added drama that will not effect the ultimate outcome of the romance. Who has a better point? I'd say person #2, as their speculation is backed by 2 1/2 season's worth of material, whereas person #1 is kinda going out on a what-if limb. Textbender, you have a great way of putting together words and making one think, yet I still struggle to understand what your direct message is. What do you actually think and expect will happen? Maybe's and what-ifs don't really get us anywhere. Basically, what is your point, if I may ask? I've read your first post, but you don't really say anything clear in either way...all I can gather is you saying "what if maybe Azula is almost redeemed but maybe she isn't but what if she is?" Now, Ursa is not a false person invented by some corner of Azula's mind. This isn't some secret voice in Azula's head that she put a face on. She doesn't have a multiple personality. The things Ursa might be saying are not of Azula's own mind. They would be things that Ursa, a living, breathing person, has actually said in the past. So when Ursa says these things, even if only in Azula's memory, they are not at all "self criticism." Azula did not invent those sayings, even in her subconscious. Those were things that were actually said to her by someone else. It's not self doubt or a good side. Ursa was real...assuming that the real Ursa isn't actually in that room, this is Azula's memory, not something of her own invention. Why would these memories bother her? Easy. In the very first episode Azula was in, we discover that, for her, "almost isn't good enough." Azula wants to be perfect. Needs to be perfect. And there was only one person who didn't love, fear, adore, or admire her in some way: Ursa. Her own mother was the only person who was unimpressed with her ruthlessness. Now, we all know how deep an impact a mother can have on a person. Even against our will, if our mother was a moron or a brute, they have a lasting effect. So now Azula is losing. Is she suffering a moral dilemma? I dunno about that. But she is LOSING. Over and over. That's a blow to her perfection. So it makes sense that her biggest source of doubt in herself, doubt referring to insecurities more than morality, would appear in this troubling time. And, as I said above, these stem from MEMORY. This is not of Azula's invention. If Ursa calls Azula a monster, then it is in no way Azula calling herself a monster. It is a memory associated with her mother. Regardless of what Ursa says, does Azula care? It strikes a nerve, to be sure, but does that mean she takes it to heart and considers it? Or does she reject it? It seems pretty clear to me. She smashes Ursa's image. Does this strike you as acceptance? Not so much for me. Add that to the other image of Azula in her robe surrounded by fire, and it looks like she just went berserk on her room. She looks more evilly insane than in any other picture there. Plus there's the scene that looks like it's from the finale (red sky) that has Azula doing some crazy firebending in her FIRE NATION ARMOR. Remember the scene where Zuko decided to change sides? They made a pretty big deal about him removing his armor and undoing his topknot, and here we have a scene from the very end of the show with Azula still trussed up in Fire Nation garb. You say Azula rejecting this message doesn't mean she didn't develop a conscience. To which I reply, it doesn't really matter at that point, does it? If she still serves her role as the villain, why is it necessary for us to ponder if she has a conscience? Azula is not Jet. Her character is not designed to make us think and ponder morals. Her character is designed to provide major conflict for the protagonists. Thus far, she has not had the slightest hint of a conscience. Why add one now? To make us feel sorry for her? Sympathize with her? That's pretty un-Azula, imo. It seems to kind of clash with her whole character up to this point. Lastly, I still disagree with your notion of a conscience in this case. Again, Ursa's words are an external force, not internal, therefore they are not self-doubt. In the Beach we found out Azula was bothered that her mother thought she was wicked. Is this conscience? It's the same thing as what you propose the mirror scene is. It is not a sign of conscience. Conscience requires empathy. Azula feeling hurt that her mom is disappointed in her is not empathy. Therefore, Ursa's presence in the mirror in no way automatically implies conscience. It implies insecurity.
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on May 6, 2008 14:42:45 GMT -5
We can freely discuss TBR in this thread now...
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Kyatto
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Post by Kyatto on May 7, 2008 0:56:42 GMT -5
There really is no redemption for Azula. She has no acknowledgment of good the way Zuko has. She's going to go berserk, do her thing, then meet her end. That's it.
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Post by textbender on May 8, 2008 9:44:50 GMT -5
kaibasgirl: I like your quote about "greater evil." If we are supposed to see everything as a unity in the Avatar world, then I think that should say something about how to look even at enemies like Ozai and Azula. yiceman: I have two ideas. One of them I'm fairly sure about, and the other I'm pretty uncertain about. What I feel pretty strongly about is that the mirror scene is a conscience scene, a Crossroads of Destiny scene for Azula. The thing I'm not so sure about is that Azula will make the right choice. Obviously, her throwing the brush looks like rejection. Of course, that's not the whole scene. And even if she rejects, that doesn't mean she forgets. She may choose to continue with evil, and yet feel conflicted within. That would still be progress for Azula. The problem is that the creators said Zuko's change is the biggest. It's hard to speculate when the creators draw the line. So the "maybe perhaps" part of my speculation is whether that mirror scene will leave a lasting impact on Azula, not enough to make her a good character like Zuko, but enough to make us pity her. I really disagree with your argument that Ursa is just an exterior criticism even if she is in Azula's mind. To me, if she's in Azula's mind, whatever she says is something Azula is thinking at the moment. Sure, she may not be thinking it had she never had the model for it in Ursa, but she has now internalized it, it has become a part of her present self, if not a part of her "original" self. Of course, it depends on what she is saying, which we don't know. This part of your argument is good: But this part I disagree with: I don't think Azula looks like she doesn't care in that scene. And I think internalized Ursa is part of Azula's superego. Empathy is an emotional quality that some people are born without. But a person disabled from this point of view may learn and choose to do the right thing through a reasoned choice without necessarily feeling empathy. At least it's theoretically possible. This person may still make mistakes here and there, hurting people's feelings, but overall try to do the right thing. Anyway, if Azula's partial redemption is under a question mark for me, I veer towards certainty where it comes to her having a crisis of the conscience. She may have been born without empathy, but perhaps her reason is developed enough now that she may well wonder about what it means to do right and wrong for once. I wonder if she's in her room here, or in the throne room. I can see her walking out of her room after the confrontation with Ursa, and going to the throne room, to underscore the choice she's made. Zuko's family is messed up. His mother, so gentle and good, ended up doing some unspeakable things (murder? or what?), and may be dead. Azula is insane evil. Ozai is thorough evil. I think it would be sad and it would lack something for Zuko to simply defeat (destroy?) Azula just as she would have destroyed him, and Aang to defeat (destroy?) Ozai, and the world is so happy now, without those two evil demons around. I think something deeper has to happen, because these two enemies are part of Zuko's family. I want to see at least one of these two "faced with their choice." Perhaps we've already seen Ozai in that situation (after Ursa left). We've never seen Azula as much as blink. And overall, I'd like a resolution that takes into account that these people are part of one family.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on May 8, 2008 14:04:32 GMT -5
I think I'm gonna wait and see if the answer to this question lies on the "Sozin's Comet" book that some folks will (maybe) get tomorrow before responding...
Cross your fingers, folks.
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Post by textbender on May 8, 2008 15:07:57 GMT -5
Some lucky people will get it. But Amazon doesn't say they've mailed my book yet... Are we allowed to mention stuff from the book in all threads in the Spoiler section? I'm so curious I'll probably look no matter where or how it's posted (i.e. with spoiler tags). But I don't know about others.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on May 8, 2008 18:29:45 GMT -5
I'll bet it'll be flowing through the spoilers board soon enough.
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kaibasgirl
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Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
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Post by kaibasgirl on May 8, 2008 20:29:15 GMT -5
LOL, my fingers have been crossed a long time ago XD
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