yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 1, 2008 22:22:42 GMT -5
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Post by textbender on May 2, 2008 18:53:36 GMT -5
You're asking for a pretty impossible and not entirely relevant example there, textbender. I'm supposed to find a character who's complex enough to be a villain who has a crisis of conscience and self-doubt, but I have to reference a kid's show on the same level as Avatar O.~ That was my whole point. Super villains in shows like Avatar are more absolute than villains in more mature shows. So when you see a glimpse of a conscience in one of these, you can well wonder if there is a chance of redemption. In more mature genres, villains may be more complex, and still have no chance of redemption. I'm theorizing, and it's possible that it is a crisis of the conscience and self-doubt. You assume that it isn't. But that was my whole point!! You need to look at the genre. Zuko is complex enough, and he's in a kid show. The point is, once you get complexity in a show like Avatar, you don't have a super villain any more, like you might in a more mature show. So, if Azula shows some complexity, some crisis of the conscience, she loses some of that edge as the absolute evil witch. I know that would ruin her character for many people, but for me it would make her more interesting. If human beings have any choice and they can go against their nature, like Zuko went against his nature and became bad (small example from his childhood: he threw the bread at the turtleduck in imitation of Azula), then, even if Azula was born bad, she could have a choice to go against her nature. But if her nature was encouraged by her father whom she admired, then she is not likely to start making that choice. That is why I said above that perhaps if she tried to exorcise herself of Ozai's influence, she would not survive, because she'd also have to destroy a part of herself... because she has cemented something that perhaps was malleable to begin with. I don't know. If I get any good ideas, I'll write a mini fanfic. But I need some time. Putting aside the idea of redemption, I don't see why you find a crisis of the conscience so impossible. Because as I said, she could still pick the wrong path after this crisis, like Zuko did in the Crossroads of Destiny, so you would still get mad mean Azula at the end, but she still would have had her moment of choice. And she could end up self-destructing as a result, with no second chances. A bit off topic, but I liked it enough to read it more than once.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 2, 2008 20:37:21 GMT -5
Ok, I see what you're saying. SHOULD Azula show signs of a conscience then she'll be passable for redemption? That I can agree with.
WILL she...no. I seriously doubt she will. I suppose that's what's important. As I said, I foresee the mirror scene to be entirely focused around making Azula crazier.
Azula's nature is Ozai's nature. They are one and the same. Now, since Azula is acting in her natural state, under what influence or motivation would she have to change? I disagree with the notion that Ozai's casting some sort of shroud over her. That is how Azula has always behaved. We can not blame her bahavior on him. The time for that has passed.
Considering that acting in Ozai's shadow brings her joy and power, there's no reason for her to 'excorcize" herself.
Now, the thing that I love about Azula is the unapologetic, absoluteness in her villainy. Even having her ponder the chance for change for a moment just clashes with her character, in my opinion.
And if you're interested enough you could PM me for all of my reasons why Ender's Game was the dumbest book I've ever been forced to read all the way through ;p
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Post by username on May 2, 2008 20:46:53 GMT -5
I still don't know where trailer at. YOUTUBE!
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on May 3, 2008 2:56:08 GMT -5
I guess Azula could have some kind of change of heart right at the end and sacrifice herself to make up for all the crappy things she's done...but I'd much rather she and her brother have an awesome, comet-enhanced mega-brawl.
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Post by .....:~~LordToph~~:...... on May 3, 2008 8:20:22 GMT -5
Poor Azula, I would hope that she would see the light. But i don't think she's going to do that
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Post by textbender on May 4, 2008 7:12:50 GMT -5
yiceman: I found a thread here where we can "take it outside" about Ender's Game. . distanthorizons.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=books&action=display&thread=15445Ultimately, we disagree about what that Mirror scene will do: to you, it will only serve to accentuate Azula's craziness, so obviously there will be no chance of redemption associated with it; and to me, it will offer a glimpse of a conscience to Azula (thought she may choose to reject it). I'd like to see what you and others imagine Ursa saying to Azula. I think that will be an interesting part of the scene. I have to think more about it, too. nandireyaWell, yes, me too. Especially now that Zuko has learned "the way" from the dragons. I see that it would kind of suck if we've prepared for a big battle and the villain doesn't show up... like in DOBS when Ozai was nowhere to be found. The thing is, we have two villains (Ozai and Azula) so even if one of them gives up, the battle can go on... But I want to see Azula fight Zuko, too. On the other hand, I want to see Azula contemplate what she is and realize she could take another path as well. It seems like she has never reflected on that, and she ought to do it at least once...
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SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
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Post by SpiritBender on May 4, 2008 20:14:43 GMT -5
Azula will die like a swine....She will come to the realization that she will not attain the throne, and she will seek revenge on Zuko. She is insane, and is not capable of realizing that something more exists in the world than her own desire. She will pick a fight with Zuko because she will believe that only by defeating Zuko can she regain her chance of gaining the throne. However, Zuko's understanding of firebending has FAR surpassed hers by this point in the story, so she doesn't stand a chance against him (even with her insane rage). Zuko will defeat her, and defeat her utterly. As strong as Azula is, she is a hollow shell that will crumble when she realizes that she is not truly THE BEST after all...
-- Spiritbender
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on May 4, 2008 20:25:16 GMT -5
According to the synopsis of the Book 3 Vol 4 DVD she already has the throne...of course that doesn't mean she can keep it...
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Post by montenak on May 4, 2008 21:42:27 GMT -5
I look all over there no trailer/
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on May 4, 2008 21:48:13 GMT -5
Try ASN...it's even available for download there...
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Post by dragonflly on May 4, 2008 22:13:35 GMT -5
but I'd much rather she and her brother have an awesome, comet-enhanced mega-brawl. I think there are many, and I do mean many, of us that wish to see this. I am certainly one of them. It would be a shame for him to learn "the ways" from the "masters" and not be able to use them to full capacity on a worthy opponent. Azula is not going to be redeemed. The only story of redemption here was Zuko's. For redemption Azula must feel like the FN is doing something wrong, she must feel remorse for the evil she does, there has to be something she feels is wrong. Azula doesn't see ANYTHING wrong with what she does or what the FN does. She basks in being evil, she gains pleasure from it. She feels no remorse for any pain and heartache she's inflicted on anyone, she relishes it, she laughs at it, she ENJOYs it. So where in any of that is there a place for redemption? There is none. Azula would have to become a completely different person if she were to be redeemed. Is that going to happen, no. She has no place in this story being redeemed, that was Zuko's place. Azula's place is being an evil obstical to Aang, a villian. She and Ozai were put in this story to show true evil, true villians. The first eppie, we knew that Zuko wasn't the horrid villian, there were things to support his good nature, right from the start. When we first saw Azula, no such things were presented, none. She was presented in a manner of that of the VILLIAN, the one to watch out for, the evil one who posessed no good in her. Well they've done a wonderful job, they made her a true villian, just as M&B wrote her as. She was planned as a villian, not as another Zuko. Redemption? IMHO, I don't think it's possible. I don't think that was ever in the plans for her!
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Post by montenak on May 4, 2008 23:27:59 GMT -5
Yes.
No
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Post by montenak on May 4, 2008 23:32:04 GMT -5
Eowyn: It looks like she is wearing the same thing in both pictures... I think it's a good idea that the two images are related. But maybe the picture from your sig is not in the same room. With all that fire in the background, I wonder if it's not in the throne room, but somehow she has managed to turn those flames blue. Maybe she threw the brush at the mirror, left the room (symbolically shutting down her conscience) and walked into the throne room, choosing evil and power over the brief glimpse of good. About control: Perhaps all she wanted was to be able to control her mother, but I would disagree that Ursa is the only person she could never control. There are plenty of people she can't control before she goes crazy. She looks up to Ursa for some reason, she cares about being able to control her. For example, I don't think she was ever able to control Iroh, nor did she care (she underestimated him, too). But what can Ursa give Azula? Ozai can give her the throne, but what can Ursa give her? Ursa is a good, loving person, who also has morals and principles, although she is willing to become "vicious and traitorous" in order to defend her young (like the turtleduck mommy). I don't think who Ursa is, what kind of person she is, is irrelevant to Azula's need to control her (or in my own terms, her desire to have her approval). I think Ursa represents the conscience that Azula tries to shut down, but she will have a glimpse of it (and yet she'll try to destroy it). It's true that Ursa is probably the only one who has ever chastised Azula, told her she was doing something wrong, and whom Azula was never able to control (at least, not overtly; she was certainly capable of manipulating her: "don't you think siblings should play together, mommy?"), yet I think that also makes Ursa a symbol for Azula's conscience. That is partially how we develop a conscience, by internalizing outside figures who can keep us in check. Azula want to manipulate Ursa's love...from zuko to herself
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 5, 2008 1:33:30 GMT -5
I don't want to be an Ender's Game party pooper in a thread designed for people who obviously are fans of the books =/
All I'll say is that the characters are terrible and unbelievable as children and the hero ALWAYS won, which is just plain stupid, imo.
So, do you think that Azula being redeemed is a big possibility or no? Because it seems you're saying now that Azula will be humanized slightly, but not change in the long run.
I ask you, to what purpose? She works beautifully as is...unapologetic and remorsefully wicked. It's what makes her who she is. I don't see why they would try to make us sympathize with her, right before showing her explosive downfall into villainy.
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