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Post by Gran Gran on Sept 10, 2010 9:57:28 GMT -5
It's upon us: the 9th anniversary of '9/11' It's hard to miss, especially this year. Started by the Controversy over a proposes Islamic community center 2 blocks (I looked at the map, to me it's more like 3) away from the crater that used to be the Twin Towers, the nation is in an uproar. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_51One of the arguments was that 'they can see directly into the hole' which is nonsense, since the buildings between the proposed site and the hole are somewhere around 15 stories high. (Google Map, FT) Another argument was 'the respect for the site' which is somewhat puzzling. I mean, how close is too close, how far is far enough? Will there be road blocks with passport controls to keep 'them' away from the site? Sadly, the controversy has sparked similar actions through out the country, far away from Lower Manhattan. Which again brings one to the question how far is far enough? Also, there is a disturbing equation that seems to exclude muslims from US citizenship, though there have been many, for a long time who have been proud to be Americans. Which now has sparked a Pastor in Florida to hold a book burning party. Sarcastic voices have raised the question if this person knows that there are large parts of the bible represented in the Koran. Personally from not too recent history, I consider book burning an act of ignorance that opens the doors to greater abominations (not to say I regard this old man in Florida to be a Nazi) For a country founded on the premis of religious freedom, this is a very unamerican tendency.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 10, 2010 12:01:17 GMT -5
Well to be accurate and up to date, the pastor in Florida has cancelled the planned Koran burning. Still, just as folks have the right to burn the flag, the pastor had every right to burn the Koran. There should not be a mosque on Ground Zero. It's a slap in the face to the victim's families. Those proposing to build the mosque are not interested in peace and good will or whatever, otherwise they'd voluntarily look for another site. Modified to update myself, it looks like the burning has been suspended but not necessarily cancelled. cnmnewsnetwork.com/126036/quran-burning-in-gainesville-florida-suspended-but-not-cancelled-video/
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Sept 10, 2010 14:37:58 GMT -5
Just because the pastor has a right to burn a Koran doesn't really make it right. There are a LOT of nice/peaceful Muslims in the world, and it's sad that the bad eggs in their community have painted such a negative image on the entire religion. And that applies to other religions as well. I know a Jewish guy who is really rude and has slammed me simply for being Catholic, not even because of something I said/supported, and there are Christians and atheists who are generally small in relation to the size of the community, but generate negative publicity for them.
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Post by longshotsgirl58 on Sept 10, 2010 14:38:03 GMT -5
Well to be accurate and up to date, the pastor in Florida has cancelled the planned Koran burning. Still, just as folks have the right to burn the flag, the pastor had every right to burn the Koran. There should not be a mosque on Ground Zero. It's a slap in the face to the victim's families. Those proposing to build the mosque are not interested in peace and good will or whatever, otherwise they'd voluntarily look for another site. Modified to update myself, it looks like the burning has been suspended but not necessarily cancelled. cnmnewsnetwork.com/126036/quran-burning-in-gainesville-florida-suspended-but-not-cancelled-video/Like Nightmare said the pastor has every right to burn the Koran. Is it a good idea? Probably not. Just because we as American citizens have that right its one that shouldn't always be acted upon. In reference to the mosque on Ground Zero the idea itself is just ridiculous. This becomes less about the idea of religion and more and more a status of "victory" in the Muslim world. They have done this before. ( I actually just read this that one of my friends posted on facebook and it kinda shows this in way www.facebook.com/#!/note.php?note_id=148974001802424&id=100001627530741&ref=mf) I personally would have no problem with a mosque maybe a few miles away; however, a mosque even just a few blocks away can be compared to some kind of Nazi related building or center next to a Jewish Holocaust museum. The people have the right to build it there but it would be in bad taste and cause controversy. We need to take into account the sensitivity we as people all have.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 10, 2010 16:03:49 GMT -5
Just because the pastor has a right to burn a Koran doesn't really make it right. There are a LOT of nice/peaceful Muslims in the world, and it's sad that the bad eggs in their community have painted such a negative image on the entire religion. And that applies to other religions as well. I know a Jewish guy who is really rude and has slammed me simply for being Catholic, not even because of something I said/supported, and there are Christians and atheists who are generally small in relation to the size of the community, but generate negative publicity for them. I am sure that there are many nice and peaceful Muslims. Whether the religion itself is peaceful is hard to say. This goes a little further than just being rude. There is a greater connection between Islam and violent terrorism than there is with any other religion. Is every terrorist reading the Koran wrong or misunderstanding it? Seems hard to believe, after all, they spend their whole lives reading and studying it. Maybe they know something nobody wants to admit. @ LSG I agree. Putting a mosque at ground zero will amount nothing more than a monument to terrorism.
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Post by Gran Gran on Sept 10, 2010 18:20:19 GMT -5
well, look a bit back in time and you will see that Chistianity does not have a clean slate on cruesome deeds. You vilify 25% of the world's population! Forget about the many different shades of Islam...many different countries. (let's not forget Oklahoma City was not bombed by Muslims.)
Not to mention the proposed site is 2 blocks removed, and not in clear sight.
Since this controversy has now sparked protests over like buildings in other parts of the country, like Kentucky, one has to ask the question, how far is far enough?
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Post by luthien on Sept 10, 2010 19:55:42 GMT -5
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 10, 2010 21:45:36 GMT -5
well, look a bit back in time and you will see that Chistianity does not have a clean slate on cruesome deeds. You vilify 25% of the world's population! Forget about the many different shades of Islam...many different countries. (let's not forget Oklahoma City was not bombed by Muslims.) Not to mention the proposed site is 2 blocks removed, and not in clear sight. Since this controversy has now sparked protests over like buildings in other parts of the country, like Kentucky, one has to ask the question, how far is far enough? OK city was not bombed because of Tim McVeigh's religion. Speaking of OK city, did you know that he did that on the anniversary of the ATF siege on the Branch Davidians in Waco? Anyway, I could post link after link that decsribe things Muslims have done (and if anyone asks for the links I will provide them) - In 2006, two Muslim students in Australia urinated on then burned the Bible. - Earlier this year in India, a Catholic teacher had his hand cut off and you know who's facing charges? The teacher, simply because he used Muhammad in a test question. - Two Israeli couples were shot to death, recently, by members of Hamas. - Last month 3 US Christian aid workers trying to help flood victims in Pakistan were kidnapped and murdered, about a month before that 6 US Christian aid workers in Afgahnistan were murdered because they were suspected of preaching Christianity - The Fort Hood shooting by Major Hassan - this one's interesting because it counters the contention that all terrorists are just uneducated pawns - 9/11/01 There's a saying by Maya Angelou. She says when somebody shows you who they are, believe them. I love that saying, it's really good advice. Read the whole thing. What struck me was the quick mention that even some Muslims whose family members died in the WTC opposed construction of the mosque. I've heard that from other Muslims too (mainly calling into talk shows) that agree that building the mosque there is insensitive to the victims families and also that it's fueling contempt against Muslims. It goes to show that you need not be anti Islam to oppose this particular mosque. Of course coming from USA Today, the spin on the article is that Muslims are being unfairly scapegoated and that the mosque should be built. To be fair, read this: capitaltonight.com/2010/09/911-family-members-defend-911-anti-mosque-rally/
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o8jedi
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Post by o8jedi on Sept 10, 2010 22:15:28 GMT -5
I am sure that there are many nice and peaceful Muslims. Whether the religion itself is peaceful is hard to say. This goes a little further than just being rude. There is a greater connection between Islam and violent terrorism than there is with any other religion.Really? Because according to this chart here which separates the terroist attacks in the United States from 1980 through 2005, Jewish extremists (i.e., carried out attacks in the name of Judaism) are more violent than Islamic extremists. [source: www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/] Is every terrorist reading the Koran wrong or misunderstanding it? Seems hard to believe, after all, they spend their whole lives reading and studying it. Maybe they know something nobody wants to admit. Or maybe they are humans, susceptible to the same sways of charisma and dogma that can create the Westboro Baptist Church in Christianity or the Jewish Defense League in Judaism. @ LSG I agree. Putting a mosque at ground zero will amount nothing more than a monument to terrorism. Since when is "2 blocks away in a building 13 stories high (which in Manhattan terms is on the small side)" on Ground Zero? Especially when there's already a mosque 4 blocks away. The fact is, the area Park51 is proposed to be in is an urban wasteland. No one has operated anything of significance there since 2001. Look, I understand the amount of passions and significance that Ground Zero has. 3,000 people is nothing to sneeze at. Perhaps I'm detached from it, somewhat, because I didn't lose anyone I knew (even in passing) in any of the incidents, including the Pentagon and Pennsylvania. I am concerned, however, that this is part of a growing Islamophobia in the country. What I see from the protesters is that Staten Island is too close. Murfreesboro, Tennessee is too close. Wisconsin is too close. California is too close. This is not good. It's as if the only acceptable place for Muslims in North America is "not here." It's hard to say that the United States is not engaged in a war against Islam and our targets are the radical terrorist groups who threaten our people when we collective cannot see a hajib and panic or resort to, at the very least, the threat of the desecration of a holy book. And if you're a Muslim in the United States, this can create feelings of alienation and fear. And when you're afraid, you tend to do stupid stuff. And, frankly, isn't that what the terrorists wanted? If you're in a bit of a reading mood, I have an article from the New York Times. www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 10, 2010 22:46:18 GMT -5
You couldn't find a BIG chart to post? ;D
3 Problems - The commentary under the chart at the linked article shows that the author is anything but objective, although I did have to laugh that the second largest piece of the pie represented left wing extremism. Seems to cut against the argument that the TEA party is creating right wing terror groups.
- It's only speaking of terrorism on US soil. I'm speaking of worldwide events. Also, there have been a number of terrorist attacks planned for the US that have been discovered and thwarted. If that were not the case, the Islamic terrorist pie would be bigger. I am curious as to the Jewish terrorism, can you post information about those attacks?
- What's the comparison between the damage done by the various groups. Is an arson where there's only property damage at, say, a mosque really comparable to 9/11 or the Ft. Hood shooting?
I'm a little amazed that the most you can say about 9/11 is that it's "nothing to sneeze at." Maybe you're a little younger than I am and don't remember 9/11 like I do. Still, you're entitled to see it how you wish.
As to the size and the distance of the mosque itself, the building on that proposed site now was actually damaged by one of the planes. It counts as ground zero, besides, if you think this mosque is really nothing other than an attempt to foster religious tolerance, I think it's strange that you want to argue that it's not at ground zero. Wouldn't you want it to be on ground zero?
To the size, right now the biggest mosque is only 5 stories. At 13 stories, the shadow of the mosque will fall on ground zero, that's no accident. The fact that there's another mosque already close by shows that this is not a case of being anti mosque or Islam, even in New York. Even if there is a rise in "Islamaphobia", given all recent events, is that suprising? The blame lies with the terrorists not with folks who have every reason to be concerned.
Finally, what the terrorists wanted was dead Americans. That folks now want to build a monument to their religion on the site of the worst terrorist attack on US soil would just be a bonus.
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o8jedi
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Post by o8jedi on Sept 10, 2010 23:15:24 GMT -5
You couldn't find a BIG chart to post? ;D Wanted to make sure it was read. 3 Problems - The commentary under the chart at the linked article shows that the author is anything but objective, although I did have to laugh that the second largest piece of the pie represented left wing extremism. Seems to cut against the argument that the TEA party is creating right wing terror groups. To their credit, the Tea Party movement is very civil, but this isn't about them. Furthermore, left-wing extremism encompasses a broad range of issues, not just economic. The right isn't immune, either, as various Aryan Nations attacks have demonstrated. But again, we digress. - It's only speaking of terrorism on US soil. I'm speaking of worldwide events. Also, there have been a number of terrorist attacks planned for the US that have been discovered and thwarted. If that were not the case, the Islamic terrorist pie would be bigger. I am curious as to the Jewish terrorism, can you post information about those attacks. Do you suppose that press coverage might affect that perception? Since the US is personally involved in nation-building efforts in two lands, the personal stakes would give precedence to stories in that region. As to Jewish Terrorism, I'll leave the FBI to that: www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terrorism2002_2005.htm#page_37- What's the comparison between the damage done by the various groups. Is an arson where there's only property damage at, say, a mosque really comparable to 9/11 or the Ft. Hood shooting? If we wanted to monetize terrorism, that might be a point, but one could argue that it's subjective. Surely someone whose livelihood is destroyed would have similar, although not the same, feelings of loss as one whose loved one perished. I'm a little amazed that the most you can say about 9/11 is that it's "nothing to sneeze at." Maybe you're a little younger than I am and don't remember 9/11 like I do. Still, you're entitled to see it how you wish. I'm 26. I was in high school spanish class when I first saw images of the attacks. Please don't patronize me. To the size, right now the biggest mosque is only 5 stories. At 13 stories, the shadow of the mosque will fall on ground zero, that's no accident. The fact that there's another mosque already close by shows that this is not a case of being anti mosque or Islam, even in New York. Even if there is a rise in "Islamaphobia", given all recent events, is that suprising? The blame lies with the terrorists not with folks who have every reason to be concerned. The mosque 4 blocks away from Ground Zero predates the WTC. Your point is moot. In any case, why take out this concern and frustration on law-abiding Muslims? I'm not convinced that people are making the distinction between "The Terrorists" and "Muslims." This project had been in development for years, why is it NOW becoming trivial? Finally, what the terrorists wanted was dead Americans. That folks now want to build a monument to their religion on the site of the worst terrorist attack on US soil would just be a bonus. Again, I question the words "on the site." You also seem to forget that two blocks away from Ground Zero means that there are buildings (of comparable size, I might add) in between the proposed community center and GZ. Certainly, it's difficult to distinguish where one shadow begins and where one ends, is it not?
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Post by Gran Gran on Sept 10, 2010 23:37:58 GMT -5
hm, google maps is your friend: the surrounding buildings are of that size. The building directly across from park 51 is between 13 and 15 stories high. i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/Alagirl_photos/parkview.jpg(you have to stand in the middle of the intersection to see anything: i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/Alagirl_photos/streetview.jpg)Another little fun fact, the location is north of the crater, so there will be no shadow falling that way. go set the little yellow guy in the street, not a heck of a lot that can be seen there... maps.google.com/maps?q=ground+zero+mosque&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wlplease note the shadows... So you think it is OK, to go nuts over your neighbors other ways? Cabbies have been attacked, and all the good stuff. you think it is ok to lump 25% of the earth's population, not to mention a few of your own neighbors into the same heap as a handful of crazies? Think it would be ok to lump all Christians as terrorists, because Timothy McVeigh certainly was not Islamic, or all bronze star winners, for that matter? You think it is ok for the media not only start this mess (thank you Fox News, if I didn't hate you before, I am certainly not liking you now) and in all likelyhood getting somebody killed? I know, it's all about the ratings... and money...what are a handful of rugheads with American passport. that was one of the nicest things, no the most plausible explanation for this whole mess...
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 11, 2010 1:06:54 GMT -5
Couple of quick comments;
@gran, once again, McVeigh did not do what he did out of any religious beliefs. Also, how many different instances of Islamic violence and terrorism do I need to post before you think it's more than just a "handful" of people?
@08 I don't believe Muslim means terrorist, but neither are the two mutually exclusive. I'm just advocating for an honest appraisal of why there's a connection between Islam and terrorism. I wasn't patronizing you, if I was, I'd leave no doubt that's what I intended to do. More than anything, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I was impacted greatly by 9/11. I'm still angry about it. You said yourself you're somewhat detached from what happened. For better or worse, I guess I just took 9/11 more personally, I was speculating on why that might be. That's all.
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 11, 2010 6:49:39 GMT -5
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 11, 2010 16:33:57 GMT -5
Okay, if opposition to the mosque by families of 9/11 victims is not compelling enough, how about those of a self described "believing" Muslim? BTW I'm reading the linked articles of the mosque's supporters here, how about you guys? Are you willing to read opinions and articles that present an opposing view point? Isn't that the purpose of providing links in this board? I ask because nobody's commented either way on articles I've posted the links to. Anyway, if anyone's willing: The Mosque at Ground Zero, a Muslim View: Planting a Flag on an Islamic Conquest www.hudson-ny.org/1346/mosque-at-ground-zero-muslim-view"Implementation of this mosque will make the Jihadists delighted. And I have no taste for helping them be so." Neither do I. BTW, Gran, I just now really noticed that you violated Godwin's Law in your very first post, by all accounts, you lost the argument before there was even an argument. lol
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