Grandi
Bato
Prince of All Cosmos
Posts: 603
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Post by Grandi on Sept 16, 2010 21:14:41 GMT -5
Yeah religion is pretty bad, I say get rid of it.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 16, 2010 21:15:23 GMT -5
Nightmare is confirmed troll. Waiting for ban. Yeah, I'll just bet you want me banned.
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Grandi
Bato
Prince of All Cosmos
Posts: 603
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Post by Grandi on Sept 16, 2010 21:15:54 GMT -5
How much?
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Post by night on Sept 16, 2010 21:17:18 GMT -5
Locking for a bit, this is getting stupid. Really guys, you can't stop arguing?
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Grandi
Bato
Prince of All Cosmos
Posts: 603
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Post by Grandi on Sept 16, 2010 21:17:20 GMT -5
IN BEFORE LOCK <3
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Post by night on Sept 16, 2010 23:48:30 GMT -5
Okay, unlocked. Care to actually debate now?
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 16, 2010 23:57:55 GMT -5
Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. I'm just curious about evidence. [The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah], know of nothing except lies ... commit evil and become engrossed in sin. [Surah II, v. 71-85] www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/quranhadith.htmlThanks for the link to the article. I note that you have basically quoted the second half of the article while of the first half of the article explains the distinction between terms "Jews" and "Children of Israel" used. "The term "Israel" or "Children of Israel" refers to the twelve sons of Jacob and their descendants. Jews almost never referred to themselves collectively as "Jews" until after the 13th century. In the Bible, Prayer Book and Talmud they call themselves "Children of Israel", "Children of Jacob", "Israel", etc. but never "Jews". The word "Jews" derives from the Roman term "Judea" which described roughly the area allocated to the tribe of Judah including Jerusalem. More specifically it refers to the militant zealots who fought against Rome. According to Josephus, these zealots belonged to a Temple Cult at odds with the Rabbinical Jewish authorities, and a portion of which were Idumean converts to Judaism. In this sense the "Jews" or more properly "Judeans" meant militants. New Testament references to "Jews" follow this pattern, for example Jesus was labeled as "King of the Jews", i.e. "King of the militants", not "King of Israel". After the Islamic conquest "Children of Israel" came to imply the Jewish people who kept the Divinely given commandments, and the "Jews" as those who abandoned or rejected them. Borrowing from European anti-Semitic literature, modern Islamists have stressed only the latter stereotype of evil "Jews". " The article also quotes numerous passages of the Quran praising the Children of Israel. I also note the dedication of the website for the article: www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/index.html"This site is dedicated to many: to the countless thousands whose lives have been lost in Arab-Jewish conflict; to the courageous on both sides whose longing for lasting peace between Arabs and Jews transcends politics"
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 17, 2010 0:45:14 GMT -5
Yes, exactly, I wanted to explain (but then I got a little busy w/ something else) that I got those from a site that was not anti-Islam or anti-Koran. I could have gotten those very same verses from JihadWatch or TheReligionofPeace.com and they would have been spun a very different way. The point is, it is reasonable, based on the plain meaning of those passages (w/out any spin), to conclude that the Koran is anti-Isreal. Now, you may buy the contorted explanation of why the words don't mean what they plainly do, but not everybody else does or has to. BTW, don't overlook this in what you quoted, "modern Islamists have stressed only the latter stereotype of evil "Jews".
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 17, 2010 1:10:32 GMT -5
Yes, exactly, I wanted to explain (but then I got a little busy w/ something else) that I got those from a site that was not anti-Islam or anti-Koran. I could have gotten those very same verses from JihadWatch or TheReligionofPeace.com and they would have been spun a very different way. The point is, it is reasonable, based on the plain meaning of those passages (w/out any spin), to conclude that the Koran is anti-Isreal. Now, you may buy the contorted explanation of why the words don't mean what they plainly do, but not everybody else does or has to. BTW, don't overlook this in what you quoted, "modern Islamists have stressed only the latter stereotype of evil "Jews". I appreciate the point of the source not being anti-Islam although I will note that the author of the article was not a muslim but, in fact, a Jew (also a Rabbi) and one who did not view Islam as fundamentaly anti-Israel or anti-"jewish" (in the sense that a non-muslim would understand the word). I didnt overlook the last line either but made a point of quoting the entire paragraph instead surreptitiously dropping it. Those "modern Islamist" have a wrong understanding of Islam. Reading the Koran without the proper context in which the passages were written is like doing the same thing with the Bible, the tragic result of which have been well documented in history. Long before "Islamist" looked to the Bible for reasons to persecute jews, "Christians" did the same. It doesnt prove that that either faiths are evil; simply that a portion of their respective followers are similarly flawed.
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Post by Sweet Dreams on Sept 17, 2010 1:25:19 GMT -5
So I just wanted to know it better asian malasian that the Islamics who hate jews only hate them because of a translation?? So they like totally misunderstand the whole meaning of Jews and Jesus??
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 17, 2010 1:37:32 GMT -5
So I just wanted to know it better asian malasian that the Islamics who hate jews only hate them because of a translation?? So they like totally misunderstand the whole meaning of Jews and Jesus?? My view is that they use it as an excuse. To contrive a religious reason to justify a mixture of prejudice, ignorance and a whole mess of socio-political conflicts and issues that have brewed and erupted in the Middle East since the 20th Century.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 17, 2010 5:36:03 GMT -5
Yes, exactly, I wanted to explain (but then I got a little busy w/ something else) that I got those from a site that was not anti-Islam or anti-Koran. I could have gotten those very same verses from JihadWatch or TheReligionofPeace.com and they would have been spun a very different way. The point is, it is reasonable, based on the plain meaning of those passages (w/out any spin), to conclude that the Koran is anti-Isreal. Now, you may buy the contorted explanation of why the words don't mean what they plainly do, but not everybody else does or has to. BTW, don't overlook this in what you quoted, "modern Islamists have stressed only the latter stereotype of evil "Jews". I appreciate the point of the source not being anti-Islam although I will note that the author of the article was not a muslim but, in fact, a Jew (also a Rabbi) and one who did not view Islam as fundamentaly anti-Israel or anti-"jewish" (in the sense that a non-muslim would understand the word). I didnt overlook the last line either but made a point of quoting the entire paragraph instead surreptitiously dropping it. Those "modern Islamist" have a wrong understanding of Islam. Reading the Koran without the proper context in which the passages were written is like doing the same thing with the Bible, the tragic result of which have been well documented in history. Long before "Islamist" looked to the Bible for reasons to persecute jews, "Christians" did the same. It doesnt prove that that either faiths are evil; simply that a portion of their respective followers are similarly flawed. Did you ever notice that the things in the Koran (and the Bible too) that folks think are "open to interpretation" are only those things that folks don't like? When it's verses or passages that speak of harmony, forgiveness, mercy and love, nobody argues against the literal meaning. Anyway, I knew that posting passages directly from the Koran would also bring the inevitable "it doesn't really mean that" counterargument. You can interpret those passages (not to mention others) however you wish, but if it comes to a matter of interpretation, it's an equally reasonable interpretation that the Koran means just what it says, and, if it does, it is most certainly not pro Israel. There are plenty of Muslims that believe that way, too. Shoot, entire governments in the Middle East are based on a literal interpretation of the Koran (and we haven't even talked about the abuses women suffer under Sharia law). Do you really believe you understand their faith better than they do? BTW if Jew doesn't really mean Jew in the Koran, what about when it talks about Christians? As in; "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends." [Surah V, v. 51]
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 17, 2010 16:19:40 GMT -5
Did you ever notice that the things in the Koran (and the Bible too) that folks think are "open to interpretation" are only those things that folks don't like? When it's verses or passages that speak of harmony, forgiveness, mercy and love, nobody argues against the literal meaning. Anyway, I knew that posting passages directly from the Koran would also bring the inevitable "it doesn't really mean that" counterargument. You can interpret those passages (not to mention others) however you wish, but if it comes to a matter of interpretation, it's an equally reasonable interpretation that the Koran means just what it says, and, if it does, it is most certainly not pro Israel. There are plenty of Muslims that believe that way, too. Shoot, entire governments in the Middle East are based on a literal interpretation of the Koran (and we haven't even talked about the abuses women suffer under Sharia law). Do you really believe you understand their faith better than they do? BTW if Jew doesn't really mean Jew in the Koran, what about when it talks about Christians? As in; "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends." [Surah V, v. 51] Nightmare, it was the intepretation provided by your quoted source who as I pointed out also happens to be both a jew and a Rabbi. Do you really believe that your understanding of anti-Semitism is better than his? Btw, a literal understanding would require comprehension of the text in its original language. In this case, classical Arabic, which I gather neither of us understands. As I noted above, the Middle East has other far more recent social and political roots for their anti-Semitism. Anyway, we seem to be getting further away from the title of the topic which was the GZ mosque. As noted in the New York Times article below, there already was a Muslim prayer room in the World Trade Centre so Muslims were already praying at GZ even before it became known as that. www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?_r=1&hp
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 17, 2010 19:02:03 GMT -5
Did you ever notice that the things in the Koran (and the Bible too) that folks think are "open to interpretation" are only those things that folks don't like? When it's verses or passages that speak of harmony, forgiveness, mercy and love, nobody argues against the literal meaning. Anyway, I knew that posting passages directly from the Koran would also bring the inevitable "it doesn't really mean that" counterargument. You can interpret those passages (not to mention others) however you wish, but if it comes to a matter of interpretation, it's an equally reasonable interpretation that the Koran means just what it says, and, if it does, it is most certainly not pro Israel. There are plenty of Muslims that believe that way, too. Shoot, entire governments in the Middle East are based on a literal interpretation of the Koran (and we haven't even talked about the abuses women suffer under Sharia law). Do you really believe you understand their faith better than they do? BTW if Jew doesn't really mean Jew in the Koran, what about when it talks about Christians? As in; "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends." [Surah V, v. 51] Nightmare, it was the intepretation provided by your quoted source who as I pointed out also happens to be both a jew and a Rabbi. Do you really believe that your understanding of anti-Semitism is better than his? Btw, a literal understanding would require comprehension of the text in its original language. In this case, classical Arabic, which I gather neither of us understands. As I noted above, the Middle East has other far more recent social and political roots for their anti-Semitism. Anyway, we seem to be getting further away from the title of the topic which was the GZ mosque. As noted in the New York Times article below, there already was a Muslim prayer room in the World Trade Centre so Muslims were already praying at GZ even before it became known as that. www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?_r=1&hp Well 9/11 changed a lot of things. If Islamic terrorists had not flown hijacked planes into the two towers of the WTC, those prayer rooms would still be there. Let's not gloss over why Ground Zero is now "known as that." For good measure.
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o8jedi
Jet
Please, call me "o8"
Posts: 364
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Post by o8jedi on Sept 17, 2010 21:53:37 GMT -5
It's funny how picking a single verse, absent the context of the passage that it comes from, can have a dramatic effect if it's on its own. Example:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." Matthew 10:34
To those unfamiliar with the Gospels, it would seem as if Christ is billing himself as a warrior. However, when surrounded by the other verses it becomes [bolded for emphasis]:
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. For I have come to turn
a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter—in—law against her mother—in—law— a man's enemies will be the members of his own household [quoting Micah 7:6]
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Matthew 10: 32-9
The sword Christ speaks of is no longer a weapon, but a metaphor. My point is that context is everything.
On another note, I would contend that the anti-Israeli (or, rather, the anti-Zionist) sentiment has more to do with both the circumstances that came around to its creation and the past that most of the Middle East had suffered through. Though to deny a religious element (i.e. a claim to the "Promised Land") would be foolish.
As you may or may not know, much of the Middle East (and North Africa) was demarcated shortly after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. The victors (i.e., France and England) essentially drew lines on a map, not really giving a hoot about things as "tribal regions" or "culture." Needless to say, the myriad of peoples that populate the region aren't exactly happy with that level of callousness to their needs. After all, these were supposed to be the bastions of Democracy. Why weren't their voices included?
Head to the 1940s, The Holocaust. Needless to say, everyone's shocked. In the aftermath, the Jewish state of Israel is established as a homeland for the Jewish people. Set up right in the middle of Palestine. Again, no representation.
When you add all that along with other bits of Western intervention, like the American-backed Shah of Iran, one can easily see how the citizens would have become distrustful or even resentful of the West. And when people begin to feel desperate, the doors open for even the most ridiculous ideas if they promise things like "self-determination" and "freedom from the West."
Fun Fact: The country in the Middle East with the largest population of Jews outside of Israel is the Islamic Republic of Iran.
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