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Post by ZamKenobi on May 10, 2008 14:42:18 GMT -5
Those debates can go on obviously, I didn't mean that at all. The whole Kataang vs. Zutara vs. Maiko vs. Tokka vs. Sukka thing that deals with canon. But I don't want to say anything else at risk of people getting spoiled for the finale. Well, those never really should have been going on in the first place, mainly because Mike and Bryan aren't very good at being ambiguous with shipping. I don't really understand why there's so much arguing about it since it's not really that important, or maybe it's just not that important to me because I ship crack pairings in almost every fandom. semantics. if you "understand" someone, it is easy to "identify" with them... Eh, I have to disagree Zen. Understanding the character and putting yourself in the character's place is a big difference. I feel like I understand Zuko's drive and determination and having to work to get what he wants because he's not naturally talented, but I can definitely say that I don't identify myself with him because I'm not a guy. I think that can apply to people even if the character they feel that they most understand is of the same gender. I won't deny that this might be a problem among shippers, but I really think the put myself in the place of a character is more of the exception rather than the rule mainly because if a person decides they want someone just like them to fall in love with the character they want they would just make an OC, which many do. I know I make OC's in my head and pair them up with who I want, though I don't have one for Avatar. What I'm saying is I think that most of the time when people want to fall in love with a certain character they just create an OC because usually there isn't a character that fits them just that perfectly. Every character eventually does something they don't want, but you can control an OC. Though maybe I'm just naive.
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Post by frozenwind141 on May 10, 2008 14:47:02 GMT -5
Yer, it's probably because you ship crack that it doesn't bother ye at all. For other shipping is srsz bizness.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on May 10, 2008 17:00:56 GMT -5
Hey!
(future)Toko is only as crack as Zutara. ... in fact, its less crack. because in order for (future)Toko to happen, only mai has to die in the finale. but for (future)Zutara to happen, mai has to die, aang has to die, and (IMO) Zuko and katara have to go through some serious personality warping development.
the size of a ship does not affect its cannon possibilities.
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Post by nymphadora on May 10, 2008 17:07:52 GMT -5
Well Toph obviously has a big crush on Sokka. So Tokka only has to get Suki out of the way for that to happen. It's more likely than Toko IMO. Because if Suki went away somehow, then Tokka would probably happen- halfway there already, but for Toko, both need to develop feelings for each other. Toph has known Sokka has had a girlfriend and she still likes him, so Sukka happening won't make that go away. At least in Zutara there is hatred which can transform into passion and love. There's no feeling at all for Toko.
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melloyello
Appa
Beware the Chittering Monkey
Posts: 229
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Post by melloyello on May 10, 2008 17:41:23 GMT -5
I had a bit of an epiphany about Kataang while reading some of these posts. I've said before that one of the things I don't like about the ship is that Katara acted like Aang's babysitter in the beginning of the series, and envisioning someone being romantically involved with a person they're supposed to be taking care of just seemed really inappropriate. Even if they're relationship did evolve, it's unhealthy to have someone change roles from a caregiver to a lover.
However, did those who ship Kataang see Katara in that light? Even in the very beginning did they see Katara & Aang as friends on an equal standing? If so, then I think I have a better understanding of where Kataangers are coming from...
The problem I have with Tokka is that Sokka will most likely return to the Southern Water Tribe after the war, and where would that leave Toph? She wouldn't be able to see, and she'd be completely deprived of her element.
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Post by Shmandy (: on May 10, 2008 17:42:46 GMT -5
I have always shipped Zutara for "it's so wrong but right" appeal. Forbidden love, if you must. That's always what's attracted me. Sure, Mai and Zuko have had a history but it seems like that's what's all behind it- it seems so predictable and obvious. I feel like both Zuko and Katara are more into adventureous and out of the ordinary type of views. The same goes for Kataang, it's cute but I always feel that there's a certain passion awaiting to be fired in the finale for Zutara. Whether they get together or not I'm satisfied with the hug in the trailer. As for Tokka or Sukka I find both equally fine ships. On the one hand there's a predictable yet stable relationship between Suko and I do see true love behind it. They complete each other yet compliment and this is shown in the first season. Toko is my unlikely love that I'd like to see develope and transform since it's obvious Toph has shown feelings toward Sokka. They have their differences and alikenesses as well. So far it's been one sided but perhaps in the future...
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melloyello
Appa
Beware the Chittering Monkey
Posts: 229
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Post by melloyello on May 10, 2008 17:59:28 GMT -5
Fair enough. I just presumed that Sokka would feel a very strong pull towards his home, and would want to be there with Katara & Hakoda. I think Toph would be fine without her parents, though I'm really hoping they show her reconcile with them in the finale. Of course, realistically, having a 12 year old go off with her boyfriend would be pretty wild...
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Post by Shmandy (: on May 10, 2008 18:04:40 GMT -5
The problem I have with Tokka is that Sokka will most likely return to the Southern Water Tribe after the war, and where would that leave Toph? She wouldn't be able to see, and she'd be completely deprived of her element. Well if that's your only problem, then that's perfectly fine. I agree that it is much more likely that Sokka would wish to return home that Toph would; although I see no reason to think that Toph's parents wouldn't accept her for who she really is after all she has done. However, I also don't think there is any limitation on where they live barring preference. Sure, Toph hates Ba Sing Se and she can't see in the South Pole, but there's a big world in Avatar, and they haven't had a 'home' for a while now. They could visit the South Pole whenever they wanted, no-one says they have to live there. Besides, I don't think living away peacefully would sit with Toph, or at this point, Sokka either. They could go wherever they wanted, with or without the others. Were talking about Zuko and Suki here right? If so... what? Oops I meant Sokka and Suki. Gosh, I'm so out of it today!
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on May 10, 2008 18:25:53 GMT -5
I think Analeisa's explanation on why there are more male kataangers makes the most sense. They identify with Aang as the underdog and want to see him get the girl.
I can, as a male who liked the idea of a Zuko and Katara romance, maybe provide some insight.
I liked it because I thought it would tell the most interesting story. I thought that it would be more compelling and more interesting and more meaningful to the plot.
I can't help it if my tastes in that regard differ to the writers, so oh well...
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on May 10, 2008 20:36:59 GMT -5
To be honest, I'd see Kataang as a canon relationship if they didn't sweep every interaction that shows the potential to lead to a more canon relationship under the rug next episode. -_-"
DoBS for example, has Aang kiss her. And then that's it. Never mentioned again.
It's just, Bryke does something to enhance their relationship and drops it like a hot potato. It's not really good writing when they do that, IMO.
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Post by ZamKenobi on May 10, 2008 22:22:21 GMT -5
Toko, or at least one-sided Toko is entirely plausible. But judging from the characters' personalities, feelings, and experiences, one-sided and/or mutual Zutara seems to be out of the cards. I love Toko and Zutara, but I have to disagree. I know you're talking about romantic canon, but platonic canon is pretty much almost confirmed for Zutara, and I don't see that much of a jump from friendship to romance. It just has one more step than Toko, going enemy to friend to lover. I'm not saying that I think it's going to happen, but I think that it wouldn't be implausible or unhealthy relationship. Unfortunately, I think that any kind of Toko or Zutara other than platonic is out of the cards, as much as I love them. I think Analeisa's explanation on why there are more male kataangers makes the most sense. They identify with Aang as the underdog and want to see him get the girl. I agree with this mainly because it would explain the general popularity in any fandom of a pairing when a girl has a crush on a guy. It's usually a very popular pairing among girls, and I think the main reason that Sukka is a lot more popular than Tokka is because it came along a long time before Toph was even introduced. To be honest, I'd see Kataang as a canon relationship if they didn't sweep every interaction that shows the potential to lead to a more canon relationship under the rug next episode. -_-" DoBS for example, has Aang kiss her. And then that's it. Never mentioned again. It's just, Bryke does something to enhance their relationship and drops it like a hot potato. It's not really good writing when they do that, IMO. I have to agree with this. I don't think that they absolutely ignore it, but they really make Katara out to either not like Aang that way at all, so she ignores it, or a complete idiot for not realizing that he likes her. Maybe up through Season 2 she could be oblivious, but after DOBS....you could say that she could be ignoring it because there are more important things, but I still would think there would be some awkwardness, yet there wasn't. When there's Kataang interaction it's pretty touching and interesting (this coming from a non fan), but I don't really think it would take much to have them be a little awkward around each other for at least an episode to make things realistic, or maybe they just don't care because this is targeted to a demographic that probably doesn't think about things like that.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 10, 2008 23:52:38 GMT -5
Woah, no need to get snarky. What gave you the idea that I don’t think Zuko is angsty? I do think he is angst. I’m quite certain everyone has thought so in some point in time
Ok, now I’m confused. So do you mean that identifying with a character is a bad thing? I vaguely recall in another thread (I’d look for the quote but it was quite a while ago)that you stated you would rather have a gf that mothers you at times versus a dominatrix type. Wouldn’t that be identifying with a character as well? Please elaborate.
I disagree, it may be more complicated but in a way it isn’t. On privacy and secrets, Zuko and Mai did not have a total assurance of privacy because of Azula and yes there were secrets but with a group such as the Gaang it is more logical to not have secrets anyway. You shouldn’t even have that many secrets in a relationship. Sure, they might not have a lot of privacy but a gentle hand hold here, a meaningful look there as well as patience can go a long way and makes the time when you get privacy all the more special. About Sokka, I know he might disagree at first but if Katara were to strike up initiative like she did in “Imprisoned” I’m sure Sokka could see it her way. Toph may tease them but if they show her that all the teasing will not give her anymore amusement like not reacting as much she would stop.
The honest truth: Both of our ships are cliché ! In some way shape or form all of us have seen relationships like Kataang and Zutara in media.
I agree with you she does mother everyone but that was not what I meant. I have explained that the reason Katara mothering Aang is so hard to get over relationship wise is because they never progress in the way they treat each other, there is no acknowledgement! I agree with Zenj that this may very well be because of suspenseful reasons but they have had over 2 and ½ Seasons of suspense a little acknowledgement of their new relationship from Katara is not too much to ask is it?
Once again I am confused. As stated before Kataang has had over 2 ½ Seasons of progress. A relationship can progress even without a lot of “alone time”. Zuko and Mai up till season 3 have not seen each other for approx 3 years if I remember correctly. They weren’t even aware that their feelings for each other were mutual.
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Post by Kohana on May 11, 2008 4:31:28 GMT -5
To be honest, I'd see Kataang as a canon relationship if they didn't sweep every interaction that shows the potential to lead to a more canon relationship under the rug next episode. -_-" DoBS for example, has Aang kiss her. And then that's it. Never mentioned again. It's just, Bryke does something to enhance their relationship and drops it like a hot potato. It's not really good writing when they do that, IMO. I have to agree with this completely. I personally like, even love, Kataang but its biggest and most annoying flaw that their relationship is being dragged out way too much. Aang has liked the girl since the very moment he laid eyes on her in The Boy in the Iceberg and his actual feelings were confirmed in The Fortuneteller. Then Katara clearly showed that she sees the potential of them becoming more than best friends in The Cave of Two Lovers when she suggested to kiss. And it was very obvious on both sides especially in The Serpent's Pass when Aang has a semi-confession and she cries of joy while hugging him. I really think they already should have gotten together after Crossroads of Destiny. Aang had died and Katara was in so much pain seeing him get hit by Azula's lightning. It should have given either one of them enough courage to finally admit their feelings to each other. Besides, seeing the shocked Katara after the Kataang kiss in the trailer, it is obvious Aang will give her up for the Avatar State. Wouldn't it have been way more epic if Aang and Katara already were a couple after CoD? That way Aang knows how truly happy he is with her and would have been in such a more devastating position to give up his love to save the world. Mind you that I already like Kataang on the show very much, but I personally think it's a bit silly with all their epic moments (The Storm, The Fortune Teller, The Cave of Two Lovers, The Desert, The Serpent's Pass, CoD, The Awakening, The Headband, DoBS,...) that the writers drag it out till around the end of the show. And this is why I personally think both Tokka and Sukka are the best written ships on the show, and why I love Tokka the most of all. They both had development on a good and realistic pace. Suki and Sokka were bit of rivals at first, but having spend more time alone together, they realised they actually like each other as friends or possibly more. When they meet again after being separated for so long, they do realise they like each other as more than friends and Sokka having experienced the loss of a loved one (Yue), acts on it and kisses Suki at the end of The Serpent's Pass. Thus the two get involved. About Tokka... Toph didn't fall for Sokka immediately. We learned about her crush after a few episodes of her being in the group. She has never made it obvious (unlike Aang) that she likes him so it's believable that Sokka isn't aware of this crush (unlike Katara). Plus they have good development in their friendship too. They start out with bantering/teasing each other and it develops to the point where they confide in each other (The Runaway) and trust their biggest secrets to each other. Also the fact that Toph fell for Sokka despite knowing what he even looks like, is very beautiful. It means that she actually likes him for who he is and it can't get more beautiful than that. Edit: About the male Kataangians, I think that's also because most guys don't really care about shipping as much as most girls do and they just accept the romance they see on the show. I have a few male friends who watch Avatar and one of them is Kataangian and the others don't care about shipping so they just agree with Kataang. Ana's explanation makes a lot of sense too, though.
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melloyello
Appa
Beware the Chittering Monkey
Posts: 229
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Post by melloyello on May 13, 2008 18:18:21 GMT -5
I love this idea! If this had happened in canon, I think I would've been more supportive of Kataang. I certainly would like it a lot more than I do now. However, Mike & Bryan have a tendency to put off 'epic' moments, to the detriment of the plot.
Example: Zuko could've made his choice to leave the FN after The Avatar & the Fire Lord, or The Beach, or Nightmares & Daydreams. In every one of those episodes he appears to come to the realization that he's on the wrong path, and it becomes tiresome when he appears to finally 'get it', then goes back to his old ways. But Bryke wait 'till DOBS to have him change sides. This leaves only 7 episodes for Zuko to track down the gaang, become accepted by them, train Aang to firebend, (and presumably become a master at it), and bond with the gaang before the finale.
Pausing like this causes some parts of Avatar to feel forced & unnatural, and the Kataang ship has been affected by this. (In my opinion, of course.) I really think if the ship was written a bit differently, it would have more fandom support.
Of course, Zutara is such a great plot twist, and would involve forgiveness, one of Avatar's major themes, so I would still ultimately prefer it anyway.
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Post by username on May 13, 2008 21:20:36 GMT -5
I ship Zutara and Sukka. Sukka because in "Seprent's Pass" it's one of the best written pairings in the show. Zutara because it has the most potential to be excellent, and would require skillful and impressive writing. I also believe it to be vastly preferable to the alternate possibilities; Kataang and Maiko.
Maiko I think was terribly written up until Boiling Rock. "You're so beautiful when you hate the world"? Oh god, the cringe inducing horror. It was well done in Boiling Rock, however even then it's because the actual romantic dialogue was minimal. And despite being pretty well executed in that episode, it still suffered from the fact that it was dependent on the fact that Mai loves Zuko, something the previous episodes have been completely incapable of convincing me of.
Kataang. As people have said, why must it be dragged on so long? It's ridiculously predictable enough, we don't need seasons of blushing and "omg cute" crush scenes. And whenever anything does happen, they never explore the actual relationship. They just kiss and then the ship is dropped. Sure Kataang has canon evidence hinting that it will happen, but it has very little canon evidence saying why it should happen other than "he likes her, durrrr"
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