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Post by chii on May 10, 2008 0:33:27 GMT -5
Hey Zenjamin. I agree with you! I voted Toko. That ship is awesome. Too bad it doesn't have more votes. Seriously. I think Toph and Zuko interaction would be so sweet. Too bad the show glosses over it. Her tomboyishness balances out his dorkiness. Perfect. And I think Li and Lo need their own ships.
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Post by textbender on May 10, 2008 10:31:41 GMT -5
yiceman But they made it serious in the Serpent's Pass. He couldn't kiss Suki under the moon. Kataang vs Zutara by age group: i wonder what the margin of error is? How many shippers percentage wise don't include their age? And what is the reason for not including their age? (Are older people less likely to include their age, or younger people?) Would one 70 yearold Zutaran (or Kataanger) make a big difference in that statistic? How many people were counted? I'm not sure I would say that a one year difference is "pretty extreme"... I don't know how statistically significant it is, once you include the margin of error. I'm not a statistics expert, but just talking about what I see in a science article here and there. If it was something like 14 versus 18, I might do a double take.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on May 10, 2008 11:07:59 GMT -5
ya, 1.5 years wasnt the "Extreem" difference I was talking about. it was the male/female ratio.
there was about 1% of male zutaran's (or something around there) and 40% male kataangers.
the specific stats for the age thing is in the link i provided. about 200 people provided their age. I used metric decimal age when possible, 95% confidence interval, and all ages outliers were between 11-35
... but ya, its the lack of males in the zutaran ship that made me raise an eyebrow to the question of the origin of the zutara ship... especially as it really gained strength before COD, and right after "The Southern Air Temple."
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Post by nymphadora on May 10, 2008 11:13:07 GMT -5
Okay, AWS here, why did Zutara gain strength after the third episode?
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on May 10, 2008 11:44:44 GMT -5
That is the question. And the answer that the zutaran male/female ratio seems to suggest is: "Because Zuko took his shirt off for the agni-ki."
*doges bullet*
Look, I know that sounds crass, and im not challenging any individual Zutaran reasoning, im just trying to understand the origin of the fandom through the numbers... short of mind reading zutarans two years agao, its the best I can do.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 10, 2008 12:11:19 GMT -5
Goin'out on a limb but IMHO there are more female Zutarians 'cause our ship isn't as clear cut as Kataang. I mean, to ship Zutara you have to look harder then you do Kataang emotionally. What I mean is...well...Kataang is an easier ship to see in the show because in most cases it is basically there.
I also don't know how true this is (I'm a girl afterall) but men seem to approach the world in a more logical level whereas women usually go by their emotions. I mean, I have many friends that are guys and every time the topic of love comes up they always tell me they wished that girls would be more straightforward.
They have said that it is frustrating at times that girls seem to make their feelings known "romantically" in subtle ways rather than just facing the guy and saying: I like you.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on May 10, 2008 12:28:14 GMT -5
Excellent counter.
Guys are more prone to be logical in a relationship in the beginning... however that is just our inclination. Not our inhibition. We have all the same tools of the heart that you do. and you have all the tools of the mind that we do.
We can notice and go off hints, blushes, and body language just as well as our female counterpart. And all of those seemingly subtle little things are often pointed out in kataang "logic"
But males have looked for what Zutarans see... and we just. cant. find it. I will be honest with you, I have put my "heart" into it, and all I see is a touching friendship, and a story of forgivness... something that is not at all unique to romantic feelings.
"looking harder" for romantic Zutara, is not an ability that we lack.
However, there is one tool of the heart that you have that I do not. That is the ability to be attracted to Zuko's character type. And once you have that tool, everything is seen in a different context.
men dont jump to logic without feelings, we just honestly question what the reason for those feelings are before we get swept away in them.
It seems like Kataangers first see the ship, then accept it, then grow to like it, then grow to love it the more the see of it.
where as Zutarans simply "feel" the ship, like the Idea of it, and all justification and reasoning for the ship is then used to justify the "feeling" that is already there.
again, I dont mean to be crass. I love you all.
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Post by frozenwind141 on May 10, 2008 12:35:34 GMT -5
Just so you know I don't ship Kataang because it's "easier" to see. It's hard to make statements like that on a general level because everyone is different and due to personal traits will have a different reason for being attracted to a ship.
Also I don't really what this have to do with looking at things emotionally? If you're depressed you don't necessarily ship Maiko. If you're happy you don't necessarily ship Kataang.
I think this statement only applies to little kiddies. They will accept what the show hints to them and go with the flow. But I thinking applying that to older fans is crude as its basically saying we just watch and go for the easy option. That's not the case.
But yer, I don't see the point in shipping debates as most people know what the endgame thing is now. So yer.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 10, 2008 12:51:18 GMT -5
Haha, not crass at all Zenj and I agree with this:
However I disagree with these:
There are males in the Zutarian camp however few.
I disagree with that because there are homosexuals that are attracted to the tall, dark, and handsome with or without angst. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, that wasn't my intention just the first thing I thought when I read that sentence. But, preferences aside there are also men who can identify with Zuko's character because they may behave in that way as well.
To each their own and all of that. Also, if I may be so bold some of us just can't let go of the fact that "Katara mothers Aang" because of the show itself. I don't know if it's because of the writing but it would've been easier to let it go if Katara acted differently. I mean after that whole thing in "The Headband" they went back to Katara treating him the same way she always has up to that point.
Edit:
That wasn't what I meant with that post. I meant that usually males go for the logical choice where as women go for what they feel is right for them.
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Post by ZamKenobi on May 10, 2008 13:03:19 GMT -5
But yer, I don't see the point in shipping debates as most people know what the endgame thing is now. So yer. People don't ship or like a pairing just because it's canon. People will like what they like despite what's confirmed in the show. So the debates over why people like pairings and why they don't like certain pairings will go on far beyond any confirmation in canon. I daresay it doesn't really change anything.
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on May 10, 2008 13:12:19 GMT -5
I disagree with that because there are homosexuals that are attracted to the tall, dark, and handsome with or without angst. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, that wasn't my intention just the first thing I thought when I read that sentence. Im really sure why or how angst was brought into the equation. but my point still stands, the individual themselves attach to the ship because of something they see within themselves, not some actual connection they actual see between the characters. but that is the WRONG way to go about it. you should not support a ship because you see yourself as Zuko or katara. that just makes the relationship some sort of prize or desire. *shot, beaten, drawn, quartered, roasted, ground up, and fed to the dogs* read previous posts. again, the ONLY time after "the headband" that katara acted towards aang was the two second snipped of "the runaway" which was done for comedic reasons, and to illustrate just how motherly she is. the rest of the blushes and hair twirling... not so much. ya... I dont feel like retyping out all of the ways in which katara has demonstrated she is less motherly of aang then anyone else in the gaang. *points to previous posts with specific examples, that are numerous and lengthy in nature... but apparently invisible* PS: keep reppen Toko chii ;D PPS: yes, but when and why did that "feeling" come about? did the "feeling" come about because it would be good for you? Because initial and impulsive "feelings" are, by nature, personal. They are evolutionary conditioned to benefit the person who is "feeling"
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Post by frozenwind141 on May 10, 2008 13:34:49 GMT -5
But yer, I don't see the point in shipping debates as most people know what the endgame thing is now. So yer. People don't ship or like a pairing just because it's canon. People will like what they like despite what's confirmed in the show. So the debates over why people like pairings and why they don't like certain pairings will go on far beyond any confirmation in canon. I daresay it doesn't really change anything. Those debates can go on obviously, I didn't mean that at all. The whole Kataang vs. Zutara vs. Maiko vs. Tokka vs. Sukka thing that deals with canon. But I don't want to say anything else at risk of people getting spoiled for the finale.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 10, 2008 13:35:42 GMT -5
Whew, I need to learn how to word my posts better. Okie, so lets see:
Well, I've noticed some girls at my school are attracted to the angsty type. Don't know why but they seem to find it as a synonym for mysterious. =P
Not see yourself as them more like understand them better. For example, I feel I can understand Katara more because her personality like being tenacious, passionate are things I have as well. Because of this I don't find most of her actions surprising like when she helped liberate those imprisoned Earth benders in the first season. Although some may find her to be unreasonable because of what she did I didn't think so. Identifying with the characters IMO doesn't mean you see yourselves as them because you're not them. It means you understand what they're going through however minute that is.
You misunderstand, it's not that she acts "motherly" again it's that the relationship doesn't seem to progress. Even after that scene she doesn't acknowledge him as her boyfriend unlike say Zuko and Mai. In that relationship their moment like the one for Kataang in "The Headband" was the events in the comic. Next we see them they share a kiss whereas in Kataang, Aang is still unsure if he should confront Katara about his feelings. This changes in DoBS but even then Katara seems to forget their kiss has ever happened.
But then again Avatar does have this tendency of not bringing anything up that previously happened until a certain point in the story.
*yawn* I'm going to hit the hay now. See you guys later.
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on May 10, 2008 13:50:36 GMT -5
Well, I've noticed some girls at my school are attracted to the angsty type. Don't know why but they seem to find it as a synonym for mysterious. =P but you dont see Zuko as angsty, do you? perhaps unsure of himself, but not like "those guys at your school" semantics. if you "understand" someone, it is easy to "identify" with them... ya, dragging it out was mostly done for suspense reasons. But still, it is more complicated with aang and katara then it is with Zuko/Mai. They are travelingtogether, with a close knit group, where there is no privicy or secretes. aang is traveling with a protective prother, and a relentless teasing Toph. ya, their relationship would complicate things allot in the gaang, especially considering the nature of their mission. if Zuko knew he was going to leave the FN, he night have flirted with mai in their close contact, he might have danced with her at a ball, but he would not have brought the relationship to a head. And if Aang had known that He wasnt going to face the firelord, He would not have kissed katara, because bringing it to the open would just upset the balance of the gaang. it would be OK if they did bring it to a head, but it is a difficult thing to do when it will change the way everybody treats you.
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Ana
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Post by Ana on May 10, 2008 13:51:05 GMT -5
Goin'out on a limb but IMHO there are more female Zutarians 'cause our ship isn't as clear cut as Kataang. I mean, to ship Zutara you have to look harder then you do Kataang emotionally. Well, I think there are more male Kataangs simply because males relate more easily to Aang. It seems to me that the type of guys who would watch/ship for Avatar are likely to be the "good guy" types. And what nice guy wants to see the older/suave guy (well, that’s what fans make Zuko out to be ) get the girl yet again? It happens fairly often in real life so it must be beyond a cliche. Also, if I may be so bold some of us just can't let go of the fact that "Katara mothers Aang" because of the show itself. I don't know if it's because of the writing but it would've been easier to let it go if Katara acted differently. Eh, I don’t see why someone would need to "get over" that. Katara mothers everyone and that has included Zuko. In The Crossroads of Destiny one could easily say we see Mother!Katara going "Let me make it all better!". Also, this is just my opinion but I think Aang gets the least of Katara’s mothering. She’s looked up to him from day one ("But he's special. I can tell. I sense he's filled with much wisdom."), has said he should be the leader or is a good leader ("If anyone's the leader, it's Aang. I mean, he is the Avatar."), and she’s a mess without him ("And I know the world needs him, but doesn't he know how much that we need him too?"). You misunderstand, it's not that she acts "motherly" again it's that the relationship doesn't seem to progress. Even after that scene she doesn't acknowledge him as her boyfriend unlike say Zuko and Mai. To be fair, it hasn't had much of a chance to progess. There haven't been many solo Aang and Katara interaction this season because they're busy wrapping everything up. Still, Katara may not see Aang as her boyfriend but she has a lot more romantic interaction with him than she used to. Before it was strictly friends but now there's mutual romantic blushing.
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