|
Post by Paraiba Ocean on May 6, 2008 17:08:00 GMT -5
Is marriage really all that young in the Avatar-verse, though? The only example we see is the Northern Water Tribe, and it's clear their customs and traditions aren't shared by the rest of the nations. I'm not sure we can make that determination just based on the example of Yue alone. Roku looked like he was at least in his mid-20s by the time he got married, and his wife looked about the same age. Sozin didn't get married until way later. Zuko's parents look to be in their late 20s during his young childhood (Ursa, even though she's in silhouette, looks like a fully grown woman even when she's holding baby Zuko). Iroh's age seems to indicate that he was at or close to 30 at the time Lu Ten was born. So, I'm not sure that the "married at 16" thing isn't strictly a NWT deal. What should also be understood is that Yue was of nobility--and we have to assume Hahn came from a family of wealth. And the fact that it's a time of war, like Rikku said in Final Fantasy X *shot*, people think about families at a young age like that. So in a time of peace, and if they weren't in dire need to produce heirs and have families--I wouldn't consider it to be too far-fetched to assume marriages in late teens to early twenties commonplace.
|
|
|
Post by Amira on May 6, 2008 17:09:43 GMT -5
I didn't say it was an absolute. But it is not a foreign concept in the Ava-verse for people to marry young. And the images are deceptive. Court paintings often make people to look as regal as possible and can often times age the subjects a bit.
I could easily picture Ursa being in her mid to late teens when having Zuko.
The young woman with baby Hope looked very young to me.
And the marrying age thing I don't think was because of the war. Yugoda, Yue, the NWT etc. all knew of it and apparently it was an important tradition.
|
|
|
Post by luthien on May 6, 2008 17:09:55 GMT -5
It seems that Fire Lords tend to marry very late, too. Well, if Mike and Bryan's chronology is to be believed... both Sozin and Azulon were well past 20 before they got married.
About the NWT - I think that was just their thing. Definitely not typical of the Southern Tribe, I'd say, since Katara seemed to be taken aback by most traditions. And I'd guess Hakoda's age to be around 40 (since they make sure to give him lines and wrinkles around the eyes). Which would make him about 26 when Katara was born.
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on May 6, 2008 17:26:43 GMT -5
I find the subjects of age and marriage pretty irrelevant topics, as they have nothing to do with emotional personality. people will get involved romantically when they are ready for it, and they will be married when their society is ready for it.
Though, the question of when each culture considers their members "old enough" is interesting. but as we have seen the gaang able to go to war, take positions of leadership, gamble, drink ("The library"), kill, and (in yue's case) even get married...
Now that I think of it, Has there ever been a time where anyone in the gaang has been discouraged from doing because of their age?
|
|
|
Post by luthien on May 6, 2008 17:30:03 GMT -5
Hrm, I don't think so. Though with their pwnsome powers, I'm not sure there are many who would oppose them. I mean, would YOU want to tell Toph she's too young to do something?
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on May 6, 2008 17:56:11 GMT -5
Thats a good point. Even Toph's parents only tried to shelter her because she was too "weak" "fragile" or "vulnerable"
they only judged her biased on their own perception of her... their perception was wrong, but you see what i mean. so she wasnt put down because of her power or status, but because of her actions(or lack there of).
this seems to be the message M&B is sending.
|
|
pg15
Avatar Roku
"Since beginningless time, darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."
Posts: 1,248
|
Post by pg15 on May 6, 2008 22:07:31 GMT -5
And the mother/son thing needs to stop, IMO. The Headband should have killed it. Indeed. And if not The Headband, then at least The Runaway: I mean, I feel like I'm the only one who ever brings this up. Katara not only doesn't think of herself as anyone's mother, but she doesn't even like the idea of it. If THAT doesn't tell you that Katara is not meaning to mother Aang or anyone else (and thus don't see Aang as a son, nor would she feel odd getting into a romantic relationship with him), then...well, hope is lost for reason and logic. As for Aang "crushing on his babysitter"...yeah, that hope is already lost, dead, buried, fossilized, dug up, and is currently being displayed at the British Museum of natural history where millions of people come and enjoy it every year. Seriously, I obviously can't stop people from feeling that way, but all I know is, there is no rational reason for it from within the show; not after The Guru. It'd be a gut feeling. Like...hating something for no reason. You just do it.
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on May 6, 2008 23:17:45 GMT -5
ya, perhaps a subconcious reaction to justify the position of puting one's self in kataras shoes and not being able to see one's self in a romantic relationship with a "12 year old"? ... Ya, I really should take the time to write a permament page of all the instances katara has shown to be less motherly of aang then anybody else. complete with specific examples such as her always siding with him, and pics of all the blushing/hair twirling/jealous/nervous/approval seeking/ect... but for now this vid might do. be warned, it is satirical at best, and rude at worst. but if you can get pass the way the information is presented, there is something to be said for it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=dndvk21dlYcyou can rationalize any idea if it taken away from its original context in the show. PS personality compatibility seen within the show alone can still be a good argument for a ship. That is why I support Toko and do not support zutara. though I feel too tired to get into specifics right now. PPS: ive heard the term "canon lover girl" used. but honestly, when you use it to describe how you think characters should feel towards one another, your just making your own fan-fiction. PPPS: this ramble was referenced to the more extreme zutaran ideals.I didnt mean anything I said to sound inconsiderate. much love and respect to people of the same fandom.
|
|
|
Post by Kohana on May 7, 2008 4:35:14 GMT -5
ya, perhaps a subconcious reaction to justify the position of puting one's self in kataras shoes and not being able to see one's self in a romantic relationship with a "12 year old"? Wait... what? No offense or anything but that seems like a silly assumption why people ship Zutara. I can as well say that Kataangers ship Kataang because they fangirl Aang and dislike Zuko. But I won't. I don't like making such generalizations because I know they aren't true. I don't ship Zutara because I like to picture myself as Katara and that way I can have a "relationship" with Zuko. First of all I like Katara but her random, stronger than the Avatar himself powers annoy me too much and all the attention that she's gotten in S3 has made me like her less. So I wouldn't picture myself as Katara. (Then again, I never picture myself as anyone from a show.) Secondly I think that IRL, I would go for Aang. I'll honestly say that I didn't really like Aang in the first season. He was a bit immature and he refused owning up to his responsibility. But he has grown so much since then; he's able to make decisions, he knows when to be serious and he's become much more patient, yet he still kept his child-like innocence and is still able to crack a good joke to lighten the mood. That's really a personality that I could fall for. Last but not least I ship Zutara because I think the characters would be great together (not because I would). Zuko needs someone who can put him in his place yet would use the gender touch when needed. And I think Katara is perfect for that. When she knows she's right, she stands her ground and doesn't back down. She can keep Zuko's temper in check and vice versa. Yet they both know when they need to use the gentle approach (look at the Beach for Zuko and Bitter Work for Katara), because they both are sensitive people and always using the rough approach wouldn't help them either. So they would know how to deal with each other perfectly. That's one of the reasons why I like it.That's also why I don't like romantic!Toko. I love friendship!Toko, though. Zuko is too sensitive and self-conscious to be Toph's boyfriend. And no, I'm not implying Zuko is a wimp because that is definitely not the case either. I have to agree with that. Katara is just motherly by nature. She has grown into that role since she took upon all the responsibilities when her mother died and kind of replaced her. Besides, in most cases when a girl loves a boy, she'd "mother" him anyways and the boy would "father" the girl. That's only because they want what's best for their love and don't want to see them get hurt.
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on May 7, 2008 8:25:18 GMT -5
Wait... what? No offense or anything but that seems like a silly assumption why people ship Zutara. I can as well say that Kataangers ship Kataang because they fangirl Aang and dislike Zuko. But I won't. I don't like making such generalizations because I know they aren't true. no offence taken. But its not a simple assumption. That idea came from a set a polls I took awhile back, that showed that zutarans were almost exclusivly female, and about 16.5 years old. where as there was a verry high ammount of divirsity among the kataang camp. high ratio of male shippers(still less then female due to the nature of these boards, but enough to strongly contrast they not being in the zutara camp) and very spread out around the age range. while being about 1.5 years older. ya, that scene in "the awakening" turned me of as well, but the opening scene of "the runaway" seemed to mean to illustrate that aang was the most pwnsome. ya, and IRL, people wouldnt be fangirling over Ozi either but I wont try to argue with you over your personal opinions, just trying to understand the numbers of the masses. Here comes the Toko ;D not only does she not back down, she pushes, and pushes. she will take that temper, and fling it back at you in twice its strength. and Zuko is not one to back down either. Toph is one of the most laid back charcters out there. and look how well katara's "not backing down" flew with her. katara would be gasoline to Zuko,s flame. sometimes, when there is conflict, its good to back down. But the best thing to do in the face of temper IMO, is to endure. not back down, but dont escalate or seek trouble either. endure the temper, secure that you know that it will end, and state the blunt honest truth when it is done. in other-words, be a rock. ah, but in "the beach" and "bitter work" when they showed their gentler side, neither of them had someone yeling at them. when they showed their "gentler side". I think your underestimating Zuko's emotional strength (wow, never thought id be saying that) Zuko's uncertainty has always come from not being sure with who he is. Toph's actions in the WAT shows that she would only judge him for who he is, and encourage him to be true to that, and be patient with any slip-up along the way (burning her feet) ya, zuko temper and insecurity are now tempered (unless it were brought out of him and sustained). He could handle the blunt truth with much grace...
|
|
Solvabibble
Metalbending Cop
Zutarian Duchess
You gotta deal with it.
Posts: 5,049
|
Post by Solvabibble on May 7, 2008 9:15:00 GMT -5
Wait... what? No offense or anything but that seems like a silly assumption why people ship Zutara. I can as well say that Kataangers ship Kataang because they fangirl Aang and dislike Zuko. But I won't. I don't like making such generalizations because I know they aren't true. no offence taken. but its not a simple assumption. that idea came from a set a polls I took awhile back, that showed that zutarans were almost exclusivly female, and about 16.5 years old. where as there was an extreemly high ammount of divirsity among the kataang camp. high ratio of male shippers(still less then female due to the nature of these boards, but enough to strongly contrast they not being in the zutara camp) and very spread out around the age range. while being about 1.5 years older. No offense, but it does seem like a simple solution. It seems to me like you're trying to brush off Zutarians as mere Zuko fangirls, when that is simply not the case (at DH, at least). Yes, I am aware that there are some Zutarians who only ship it because they fangirl Zuko. However, out of all the Zutarians I've encountered at DH, I have yet to run across one who only ships it for that reason. I also think that you're making a blanket statement about the ones who actually took the time to vote in your poll. Just because the majority of Zutarians who voted are teenage girls does not automatically mean that it's purely a fangirl ship. Consider all the people who didn't vote. I've come across quite a few Zutarians in other fansites who aren't teen girls. Basically, all your poll proves is that most of the Zutarians at DH are teenage girls. It only takes into account a portion of the fandom. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most Zutarians ship it for the same reason I do: they like the idea of two former enemies becoming begrudging allies, then friends, then possibly something more. I'm not putting Kataang down, I think their story is actually quite good, but it doesn't interest me like the relationship of Zuko and Katara. Anyways, I avoid shipping debates like the plague. In my opinion, it's like having an argument with someone about why Santa is better than the Easter Bunny-- neither of them are real to begin with, nor does it matter in the real world which one you like better, so why bother? Who really cares? To me, shipping is all about what you like. It's like the age-old Coke vs. Pepsi competition. I don't care what the statistics say, I don't care if one ranks way above the other in a national taste test, I'm always gonna prefer Coke. At this point, Kataang is pretty much inevitable, but that still won't stop me from shipping Zutara. It's just a show, people. Stop spazzing out because other people don't like the same thing you do.
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on May 7, 2008 9:56:52 GMT -5
here are two of the polls I was referencing distanthorizons.proboards31.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=avrelations&thread=8937&page=14#320038distanthorizons.proboards31.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=avrelations&thread=8937&page=14#320037I couldnt find the zutaran equivalent... but the difference was pretty extreme. and Solva, I know the numbers dont apply to everybody, and I know that it is only relevant to the people at the DH at the time the poll was taken... but hey, its the best I could do, and better then speculation. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of shippers in general are teenage girls. there are plenty of male shippers out there... we just arent as "passionate" as others on the subject. except for me, I find it nothing more then an interesting discussion of human psychology and chemistry (or at least thats what I tell myself ;D) PS: here I said how I thought toph's personality would be better for Zuko then katara's. and here I showed how good I thought Zuko's personality would be for Toph. ... so my question is, in contrast, How would Zuko's personality benifit Katara in a romantic situation? I havent heard that arguement vocalized much. (Though I have heard about katara "healing" zuko... even though he is as "healed" as he needs to be right now IMO) again, I dont really think "two firery personalities that wont back down" would "keep each-other in check" ... what could zuko offer katara?... (besides the stuff that invokes "passion" that is.( *looking to look at this in a toko contrast so the argument is different.*
|
|
|
Post by Amira on May 7, 2008 15:24:51 GMT -5
Isn't that basically what Mai did for Zuko. Didn't put up with his nonsense and then when it was all said and done, told him how much she cared for him and was physically affectionate.
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on May 7, 2008 16:16:52 GMT -5
if by "resolved" you mean "made clear what was going to happen, kataang was "resolved" a long time agao IMO.
but your right the triangle going on with sokka is much more conflicted then any other sort of potential triangle in the avaverse.
The big ships just take up more watter. /shrug its kinda easier to try to talk Toko, because its connected to a "big ship" through zuko.
... anyways. TBR seemed to make sukka a pretty sure thing, but the scene from "the ember island players showed that suki just isnt on board with Sokka's past, espically when it comes to yue.
... kinda hopen sokka and yue stay together so there is hints of toko at the end though...
I would venture with you into this conversation more, but I have class soon.
PS: look at the sokka/toph/suki to see how M&B do triangles... not with obscure hints and symbolism ... plus, M&B are guys people. its always going to be two girls fighting over a guy ;D
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on May 7, 2008 21:31:00 GMT -5
I think the thing about Yue from the Ember Island Players was just a poorly done joke more than "she doesn't understand his past."
I think it's kinda odd that they make Sokka's lamenting after Yue a joke. They did it before in The Puppetmaster.
|
|