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Post by mindbender18 on Jan 14, 2008 17:32:12 GMT -5
Tha's all fine and dandy, but that has nothing to do with this show and all of those relationship you mentioned are nothing like Zuko and Katara's lack there of.
They are not attracted to each other, they don't have "passionate feelings" for one another (other than being passionately uninterested in one another) they fought bitterly because they don't like each other , not because of some sexual tension, and they're not together not because they can't be, but because they don't want to be and both have people they do want to be with.
Of course Katara's not going to hate Zuko forever, but.....so what? That doesn't in anyway mean she's going to fall madly in love with him also
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on Jan 14, 2008 17:35:27 GMT -5
angry emo idiot.....goodness that made me laugh so much I spit out my rice cake!xD But you're right. It's also not in her nature to be mad at someone forever....that my dears might belong to either Ozai or Koh. I don't count Azula because she's showed the capacity to apologize and doesn't truly hate Zuko. she just loves seeing him suffer.
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melloyello
Appa
Beware the Chittering Monkey
Posts: 229
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Post by melloyello on Jan 14, 2008 17:37:16 GMT -5
@ Victim: Thanks for the Karma!
I've had this theory for a while now that, regardless of the shipping outcome on the show, the live action movies will contain a lot of zutara, just because that kind of relationship would work so well in an epic film. (and it'd better be epic) It's the kind of thing that would draw a larger audience than those that would typically attend your standard action/adventure movie. Of course, it's just my personal thought - we'll just have to wait to see what the director decides...
@ Mindbender: I was just trying to explain a love/hate dynamic in a relationship for those who don't get it. I am not saying there is or isn't a love/hate dynamic in Katara/Zuko's relationship. That's not a question I'd be able to answer, and, even by the end of the show, it still may be left unanswered.
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The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Jan 14, 2008 18:17:44 GMT -5
You've gone through relationships where one party *seriously* threatened to kill the other party? No, silly. With that fine line between love and hate thing... Sometimes you just never know how things will turn out. Zutara happens to align with my opinions, but I am fine with the fact that others obviously have different opinions. I no more consider it my place to change your opinion than I would consider it yours to change mine.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Jan 15, 2008 2:25:04 GMT -5
I think it's that fine line between love and hate thing... No it's not. In this case, there's light years between love and hate. Katara genuinely hates Zuko. This isn't some romantic comedy I'm not a Zutarian...I was just trying to explain their mindset...but I don't think Katara genuinely hates Zuko, there's be no coming back from that. I think there may also be some kind of negative transference involved. She doesn't know how to deal with her feelings about Aang so she's pouring all her energy into hating Zuko, something she CAN understand, and ignoring the feelings that confuse her.
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Post by bongalak on Jan 15, 2008 23:09:10 GMT -5
Man, haven't posted here in a while. It was a long, good break Anyway, how do you guys think Momo feels toward Zuko? So far he hasn't said much about Zuko. But then again I guess Zuko never done anything bad against him directly, so the chances are that he may not care that much.
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Post by dragonflly on Jan 15, 2008 23:21:27 GMT -5
^^I think if Appa is OK with him, Momo will be too!
As for Katara, I think she's mad at herself. She let her guard down, and feels sorta responsible for what happened to Aang because of it. But, she is certainly taking it all out on Zuko. I think she may be startig to trust him, she did let the two of them go off alone. But she is still full of spite, she holds a grudge. I'm not sure that hate is the proper word though. I do think that the snide remarks, and the nasty manner of Katara will stay for a while though, at least until Aang tells her to knock it off!
I do see where shippers are comming from. We've seen it in movies, tv shows, and whatnot. They start out with the hate and end up in love, but I'm not sure M&B would go that route. But ya never know! They have been know to pull a fast one, and make our heads spin.
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The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Jan 17, 2008 1:00:50 GMT -5
Tha's all fine and dandy, but that has nothing to do with this show and all of those relationship you mentioned are nothing like Zuko and Katara's lack there of. They are not attracted to each other, they don't have "passionate feelings" for one another (other than being passionately uninterested in one another) they fought bitterly because they don't like each other , not because of some sexual tension, and they're not together not because they can't be, but because they don't want to be and both have people they do want to be with. Of course Katara's not going to hate Zuko forever, but.....so what? That doesn't in anyway mean she's going to fall madly in love with him also I'm confused... so, if the creative team does happen to take it in that direction anyway, how will you feel? Will you feel that the show has been ruined, or that it was written badly, or that it was unrealistic, in the face of other people trying to tell you that such relationships do exist? Or will you simply like the show fine, but say you wished it had turned out in accordance with your own personal preferences? 'Cause I love Zutara... but if Kataang happened, I'd be fine with it. It wouldn't ruin my experience of the show, because I know that there really are people out there who behave that way. It may not be me, but I'm at least willing to concede that there are different types of relationships among different types of personalities, rather than assuming only one relationship style has a corner on the market.
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pg15
Avatar Roku
"Since beginningless time, darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."
Posts: 1,248
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Post by pg15 on Jan 17, 2008 3:15:57 GMT -5
It's not a matter of whether the relationships exist in real life; it's how much canon build-up there is, and Kataang has a lot more of it than Zutara; there's a lot more REAL foreshadowing and strengthening of Aang and Katara's relationship than that of Zuko and Katara.
If romantic!Zutara happens, then I'd be very disappointed in the writers. It's not the kind of TWIST!! I've come to expect from them, and I'd probably consider it the biggest blunder of the show.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Jan 17, 2008 3:25:26 GMT -5
Why? They put Zuko with Mai with absolutely no build up, foreshadowing or strengthening...
Bad, Nandi, bad...you promised you wouldn't be bitter about that ship you don't like that makes no sense anymore *smacks wrist*
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jan 17, 2008 3:41:39 GMT -5
Why? They put Zuko with Mai with absolutely no build up, foreshadowing or strengthening... Bad, Nandi, bad...you promised you wouldn't be bitter about that ship you don't like that makes no sense anymore *smacks wrist*Yeah...and it was BAD. So they're kinda right about that...
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The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Jan 17, 2008 4:09:18 GMT -5
It's not a matter of whether the relationships exist in real life; it's how much canon build-up there is, and Kataang has a lot more of it than Zutara; there's a lot more REAL foreshadowing and strengthening of Aang and Katara's relationship than that of Zuko and Katara. If romantic!Zutara happens, then I'd be very disappointed in the writers. It's not the kind of TWIST!! I've come to expect from them, and I'd probably consider it the biggest blunder of the show. But that's just it ~ it's not a writers' twist, it's real life for some people. You're not expecting it, and then suddenly something happens. If a person doesn't believe such stuff really does happen, then it will look like unrealistic, bad writing to them, instead of an exciting new aspect to someone's life. Especially if that was part of the point of the storytelling: love can be found in unexpected places, if one is open. Since I don't mind pretty much any ship on the show, I would not go around saying that the relationship which has been established since day 1 and which has no apparent conflict is bad writing. That would be untrue and unkind, and I wouldn't want to hurt y'all's feelings ~ you're free to ship what you like. And yet I also wouldn't presume to say I know the characters' inner feelings, which is why I was responding to mindbender particularly, in an attempt to explain that a little more openmindedness makes more of the world available to appreciate, rather than to judge. It would be a shame to throw away love of an entire great show like this, over something little like dating.
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Post by mindbender18 on Jan 17, 2008 10:43:33 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding arrogant and offending some people, i'm really not going to respond to that. But I will say I don't compare real life things to this show. It just makes no sense to me Bad, Nandi, bad...you promised you wouldn't be bitter about that ship you don't like that makes no sense anymore *smacks wrist* oh please keep being bitter, it makes it all the more fun for me
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The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Jan 17, 2008 10:55:49 GMT -5
If that's the way you choose to approach life, that's your prerogative. You may find as you grow older that you are more open to other points of view. Also, comparing the show to real life is one of the things that makes watching Avatar so fun. Regardless of what relationships do or do not occur in the show, I'm really interested in seeing what message Mike and Bryan intended to convey by them, as well as what real-life experiences might have prompted such a storyline. I don't imagine I'll ever be privy to such information, though... but it would be nice background.
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Post by Malkia Moran on Jan 17, 2008 16:30:28 GMT -5
The reason that Katara is so hostile towards Zuko when he arrives is because she still thinks he's that guy who chased them all over the world and tried to kill Aang. She even specifically states that, in her eyes, Zuko is the face of the enemy. And when he sides with the Fire Nation, her view of him is still the same. It can easily be said that Katara thinks he's exactly like his sister: evil, manipulative, and a liar.
In Crossroads of Destiny, she does begin to trust him when Zuko tells her about his mother. But when it comes down to it, he chooses Azula and is instrumental in killing Aang. So what's Katara going to think? That he's just troubled and confused? No; she's going to think that his entire sob story was a lie and that he tried to manipulate her. And this is why I don't really buy the whole "she'll trust him quickly because she knows he was just confused," because, again, she thinks all of that was a lie.
So when Zuko comes and says that he's on their side now, this immediately hits home for Katara because she's heard it all before. Whilst he didn't actually say that he was on her side in the caves, she believed it to be so, and Katara right away thinks he's lying again this time around. She's thinks he's still a liar, and still manipulative, and has every right to believe so. And I don't think Katara has warmed up to him at all. When she made her threat, it was between them only, so instead of doing so again in front of everyone else (because they obviously trust him and are likely to say something), Katara sticks to cold remarks from the sidelines.
Although many think otherwise, Katara doesn't know Zuko. At all. So when she does begin to find out about him and that he's telling the truth about being on their side, I'm sure she'll warm up to him. But I don't know how long that will take.
That is so incredibly wrong that I don't even know where to begin.
The only twists in this story are ones that make sense. For instance, the entire second season was leading up to a choice for Zuko. If one paid any attention, his eventual choice was so obvious. That twist made sense. Frankly, Zuko/Katara wouldn't make any sense at all, and I'm not even talking about the time constraints. For one, Zuko hearts Mai, and seemingly has no interest in Katara, which makes perfect sense if you think about it. Number two is that Katara/Aang is so intrinsically tied with the narrative, that you would basically have to unravel the basic arcs throughout the story for any other pairing to work.
Secondly, in the first episode that Mai is introduced, we figure out that she hearts Zuko. That alone made it more likely than Zuko/Katara. And right then and there, I knew that Mai was going to be Zuko's love interest because there just wasn't any reason to include that trait in her character to have it not go any where. In my mind, the narrative only had so many paths to take, and an eventual Mai/Zuko romance was pretty much the only reasonable outcome.
In Zuko Alone, we have Zuko saving Mai from a burning apple (which I'm still convinced is forshadowing events still to come). It is extremely easy to deduce that Zuko had a crush on Mai due to a) Azula's confidence that he would save Mai and b) the intention of the scene not being "Zuko is just a nice guy" because that has already been proven time and time again (even later in that episode) but that Zuko did, in fact, have a crush in Mai. There is wee Mai blushing at Zuko and (although I suppose nobody saw it), Zuko does blush once. It's when he says: "Why don't you put an apple on your head and we'll see how good I am!" to Azula. It's only visible for a second, but it's there. While it could be passed off as embarrasement, the comment that he actually liked Mai from someone on the staff and the explicit timing of the blush just causes me to think otherwise.
I also disagree that there wasn't any "strengthening" of the pairing. In The Awakening, we see two people who are still getting used to being a couple. When Mai makes a joke (which she always does) and Zuko doesn't respond well to it (because he never responds well to jokes that harm his pride) Mai quickly changes her tactic and comforts him. She's learning.
"Strengthening" was the whole point of their argument in the beach. Mai and Zuko call each other out on tempers and emotionlessness. Basically, they challenge each other. So when they get back together, it's because they are learning to accept these things in each other. Also, note that Zuko finally finds out why he is so angry (even though it wasn't only Mai that pushed him) and Mai is noticably happier in subsequent episodes.
And when Zuko goes off to help the Avatar and only leaves a note behind, it might open Mai's eyes a bit to the fact that everything maybe isn't okay. So when the couple have their Epic Reunion, I have no doubt that it's going to strenghten them as a couple. (I could even go into how Zuko cares about Mai's welfare enough to leave her a note, when before, he didn't care about the lives of his crew. So not only have Zuko and Mai grown as a couple, but also as individual people.
So when we have two teens who have had crushes on each other before, monumental build-up isn't all that necessary. The only qualm I have with the pairing is that they didn't put the comics into the actual show. In the end, there were numerous hints about the pairing coming to pass (without even mentioning the creator's numerous comments); people just chose to ignore them.
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