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Post by deana on Feb 12, 2008 22:17:04 GMT -5
Zhao being the most evil does not make my point any less valid. We expect Aang to save the day. It's in the hero guidebook. Season 1 villain Zuko, on the other hand . . . .
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 22:27:19 GMT -5
But if he is this confused, troubled creature then fiction and story telling dictates that he will have flashes of goodness and then they are to be expected. And certainly in season two, he wasn't a villian.
Aang I expect to stumble and fall and be human. Its part of what makes him a good character, IMO. I don't expect him to be this perfect hero, I expect him to make choices that are very human, I expect him to make mistakes, and I expect him to behave like a boy thrust into a bad situation who has no one to guide and help him but a ghost and a few other children.
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Feb 12, 2008 22:31:33 GMT -5
I think he made the right choice because I don't think the AS has been explicitly stated as being what saves the world. I think thinking outside the box, building allies, teamwork, loyalty, friendship, Aang learning the elements, etc. will be what saves the world. This war is nothing that I think can be cured by a 3 second glow-fest. So says you. The AS may not be the thing that wins the war, but it's certainly been set into stone that it's important. Oh, yes, and I'm sure sacrificing power that will help win the war to save someone who wasn't in danger at the moment and could have waited a few more minutes is building teamwork. And then lying to his friends about mastering the AS. Aang knows he should have doe it, but he was too wrapped up in his obsession with Katara that created a vision of Katara in chains so he wouldn't have to give her up. He wasn't thinking about building friendships and teamwork, he was thinking about Katara and how he selfishly didn't want to let her go. IMO. Aang's love for Katara isn't going to save the world. But the Avatar State can certainly help.
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
Posts: 5,061
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Post by Ana on Feb 12, 2008 22:33:56 GMT -5
IMO, season three still sucked, and I know people who feel the same way. Prepare to be bored, because the Avatar State will more than likely be key to defeating the fire nation. Yes, I know. All I was saying is that you were acting like S3 sucking was fact when it wasn't. No, it won’t. Again, the entire point "The Avatar State" was that relying solely on power is bad. Also, regardless of when Aang tried to access the AS did it save him in the end? No. That was love. The audience (especially concerning the target audience is kids) is going to consider the latter the good thing because of that. Ah yes, what is best for the world is a bitter young boy whose entire childhood would have been stunted and whose entire attitude would have been shaped by being taken away from a loving environment, being treated less like a person and more like a thing, and abandonment. That’s why I think the whole Avatar system is so flawed. It sacrifices the happiness of whoever is the Avatar and things that are too much are asked of them just because they’re the Avatar. To be frank, I want there no more Avatars after Aang so the world will have to learn how to find balance without relying on one person. @amira- So; you're being harsh on Zuko because of how the fandom treats him? Meh, I don't Amira's being harsh on Zuko. She just thinks Zuko’s made some stupid decisions and Aang’s decision in COD wasn’t stupid like that. I’m not sure I agree with it but I do prefer Aang over Zuko. I love them both but Aang’s positive attitude is more appealing to me than Zuko’s negative one.
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 22:34:36 GMT -5
How did he know she wasn't in eminent danger. He saw a vision of her chained up and in trouble and screaming. Did she have to be bleeding on the floor for it to be okay? I think he truly saw her in danger. I don't think it was a cop out to get out of trying to do what the Guru said.
And I hope their love saves the world. Would fit right in line with the theme of the whole show. Love and friendship conquering all obstacles.
I am being harsh on Zuko because I interpret the whole Guru thing and AS thing differently. And I don't see Aang as this hero who has to do right all the time to be a good hero. He is human and i think it is important to see that he does have flaws. And after all the good things he's done, even after Ba Sing Se, he is still condemned for that one decision which based on what I've seen in the show was not entirely a bad decision.
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Post by luthien on Feb 12, 2008 22:38:24 GMT -5
Frankly, I was a bit disappointed that Aang didn't see Toph in her desperate situation, only Katara. So poor Toph has to find her way out of being captured, but Katara gets the rescue squad? It made me feel badly for Toph - Aang doesn't feel strongly enough about her to see her when she's in trouble. But that's beside the point. Controlling the Avatar State is critical, not just so it can be used as a weapon, but so it's not such a dangerous factor. Aang not being able to control the Avatar State is potentially deadly - for his friends. It's not fair to expect Katara to always be around when he goes ballistic and glows it up. Controlling the Avatar State is about more than having access to some awesome weapon. It's about making that weapon into something you can use at will, not something that could fire off and kill everyone around you. It's very dangerous, and right now, very unstable, and mastering it *is* critical for Aang, no matter what. Ana - whether or not Season 3 sucks is a matter of opinion, so you can't say one way or the other that it doesn't. Deana thinks it does, you think it doesn't, but both are your opinions, and thus, both of them are valid.
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Feb 12, 2008 22:39:48 GMT -5
How did he know she wasn't in eminent danger. He saw a vision of her chained up and in trouble and screaming. Did she have to be bleeding on the floor for it to be okay? I think he truly saw her in danger. I don't think it was a cop out to get out of trying to do what the Guru said. And I hope their love saves the world. Would fit right in line with the theme of the whole show. Love and friendship conquering all obstacles. Well, the image obviously came from his own mind; Katara wasn't in chains in the Catacombs. He wasn't being spiritually connected to her or anything, he was subconsciously conjuring images to convince himself not to let her go. How can their love save the world, though? They'll kiss on the battlefield and everyone will just stop fighting to say "aww" and then everyone will turn good? I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing that happen. Love and friendship conquering all obstacles, eh? Kind of fits the bill of Zutara IMO... Edit: Great point, lu! He has to master the AS to control it if it gets out of hand in the future, not just as a weapon.
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 22:44:48 GMT -5
Frankly, I was a bit disappointed that Aang didn't see Toph in her desperate situation, only Katara. So poor Toph has to find her way out of being captured, but Katara gets the rescue squad? It made me feel badly for Toph - Aang doesn't feel strongly enough about her to see her when she's in trouble. But that's beside the point. Controlling the Avatar State is critical, not just so it can be used as a weapon, but so it's not such a dangerous factor. Aang not being able to control the Avatar State is potentially deadly - for his friends. It's not fair to expect Katara to always be around when he goes ballistic and glows it up. Controlling the Avatar State is about more than having access to some awesome weapon. It's about making that weapon into something you can use at will, not something that could fire off and kill everyone around you. It's very dangerous, and right now, very unstable, and mastering it *is* critical for Aang, no matter what. Ana - whether or not Season 3 sucks is a matter of opinion, so you can't say one way or the other that it doesn't. Deana thinks it does, you think it doesn't, but both are your opinions, and thus, both of them are valid. That I would agree with. He needs to learn to control it. But I think in all honesty the trip to the Guru was too soon. He had not mastered firebending. He had not experienced life in the fire nation. I still think Aang needs to grow as a person more as well as a bender, fighter, etc. and I don't think he's fully done that yet. But I don't think that Aang leaving the Guru is going to doom the world. And according to the timeline I've figured out, she wasn't in the catacombs when he had that vision. Of course it is my theory, but I don't think she was in the Catacombs, I think she was in the hands of the Dai Li.
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Post by mahatista on Feb 12, 2008 22:46:48 GMT -5
But I don't think that Aang leaving the Guru is going to doom the world. It sure doomed Ba Sing Se. But yeah, maybe not the world. Of course, he's going to have to deal with the AS at some point. I think it should've been right away because they made it important at the end of S3 but I guess maybe it wasn't that important.
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Post by deana on Feb 12, 2008 22:47:14 GMT -5
At the end of the day, both Aang and Zuko are still to blame for what happened to Aang in COD. I just happen to blame Aang and his obsession more.
I had no idea that the Avatar State was so frowned upon. It is my favorite thing about the Avatar.
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jillrg
Avatar Korra
By Fialleril at LJ
Posts: 1,067
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Post by jillrg on Feb 12, 2008 22:48:41 GMT -5
Frankly, I was a bit disappointed that Aang didn't see Toph in her desperate situation, only Katara. So poor Toph has to find her way out of being captured, but Katara gets the rescue squad? It made me feel badly for Toph - Aang doesn't feel strongly enough about her to see her when she's in trouble. Probably just because portraying Toph as a damsel-in-distress the hero has to rush to rescue... just doesn't fly. I find it equally suspicious he would have that vision at such a critical point in the process. It must have been a deliberate test. Zuko had to give up his girl to accept his destiny, too, but that was handled more realistically IMO. All the same, it's another good parallel between them. I really can't imagine the show without the interaction and parallelism between these two; it's like the show was made around them both. I wonder at what point in the creative process Zuko was added to the equation. Somebody ask questions about stuff like that at the next interview instead of the same old "How does it take to make an episode?"
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Post by luthien on Feb 12, 2008 22:49:14 GMT -5
I don't think so either, but I think it fits in with Aang's two main character flaws: running away from his troubles, and being scared people are going to leave him. These have shown themselves time and again in the series, and in this particular instance, both elements conspired to lead him to his decision. I don't know whether the choice itself was bad (that's a matter of interpretation, I suppose), but the things that motivated him to make that choice were. Both Aang and Zuko have been given defining character flaws that they must conquer. Aang has got to get past his fears, and Zuko has to get past his pride. And then they need to huggle. Zukaang ftw!
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 22:51:08 GMT -5
And this discussion has gotten vastly off topic and a bit uncomfrotable.
I think we need to move it back to a discussion that is more Aang v. Zuko and not Aang v. the Avatar State cause obviously no one freakin' agrees on that one.
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Silent_E
Appa
A True Flame Master
Posts: 241
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Post by Silent_E on Feb 12, 2008 23:08:00 GMT -5
I tend to blame Zuko more with the choice he made in CoD for two reasons...............
1. He's older and is practically a man.
2. With his past, he had years to accept his father for who he truly is. Also, considering that he traveled the world and seen all the destruction the Fire Nation has caused (and under the tutelage of Iroh), he was more capable of making the right decision. Instead he choose the selfish route and he knew that he made the wrong choice by the end of the episode. (He just denied it at the time.)
Not to say Aang was right or wrong for his decisions, the only difference is he payed for his mistakes. (and is still paying.) Zuko has yet to face any difficult consequences.
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jillrg
Avatar Korra
By Fialleril at LJ
Posts: 1,067
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Post by jillrg on Feb 12, 2008 23:16:55 GMT -5
^ Well, of course; if Zuko's actions in CoD weren't so frightening foolish and selfish, it would have lost shock value. Not that Aang being attacked while powering up wasn't just as shocking.
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