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Post by deana on Feb 12, 2008 21:12:52 GMT -5
Oh yeah, Zuko got my vote. It would be better than over half of the stuff presented in Season 3. Which was/is boring. Season three is only saved by episodes like The Avatar In the Fire Lord and DOBS. Do not state your opinion on Season Three like its fact. It isn’t. I’ve enjoyed Season Three quite a bit and everyone I’ve talked to in RL and has felt the same. As for the Avatar State, the whole point of the first episode of S2 was that trying to save the world by power alone (i.e. the Avatar State) is likely to lead to devastation. This is reinforced in COD when Aang tries to master it again and gets shot in the back by Azula. It's continually reinforced when, like Amira, being all glowy and powerful didn't save Roku from the volcano and Sozin's treachery. So, not only is the idea that the AS is superior unsupported by canon but it would truly make the story a boring one. I mean, when Aang watching be all glowly in The Siege of the North were you thinking "I wonder who is going to win this fight!"? IMO, season three still sucked, and I know people who feel the same way. The mistake was trying to go into the Avatar state in the middle of battle. If he was already in it before the battle started, battle won. Prepare to be bored, because the Avatar State will more than likely be key to defeating the fire nation.
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jillrg
Avatar Korra
By Fialleril at LJ
Posts: 1,067
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Post by jillrg on Feb 12, 2008 21:13:41 GMT -5
I've always ben of the mind that the world relying on one person to keep the peace is ludicrous. Well, it's quite common in fiction; said person is called "hero."
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Post by mahatista on Feb 12, 2008 21:14:27 GMT -5
Ugh, I feel like those monks at the Southern Air Temple. "But what we need is what's best for the world." Which is exactly why Katara will be the one to 'let go' -- no matter how she feels about him -- if she ever finds out he left the guru and didn't master the AS over her. She'll kick him to the curb for his own (and the world's) sake. They've shown Roku go into the AS a couple of times and it's obvious that there's a difference between what he did and what Aang was doing in CoD. He screwed up -- which was part of the parallel storytelling of Zuko and Aang. It seems to me though that Zuko has found his path while Aang is still denying his. I wonder if there's still something huge for Zuko to learn since obviously Aang needs work and they've so far been parallel in such blatant ways. But I agree with Lu's earlier posts that it's kind of impossible for me to choose between them. Even though they have had parallel story lines they are very different characters. I did choose one of them but now I can't remember which one I chose. It was a while ago. That's how equal they are in my enjoyment. I've found them both to be annoying in season 3 though. Can I choose 'neither' and write in Sokka?
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 21:20:05 GMT -5
And Zuko was abused: scarred, humiliated, told he was worthless and a failure, unloved; forced to bear a burden no one should have to bear but forced into by the unfortunate consequence of being born the son of a jealous control-freak like Ozai. And still being honorable enough to spare his arch enemy when he had the perfect chance to kill him or defend a village of people who should mean nothing to him. He's an amazing person. See that's where I disagree. Zuko has had plenty of times to make better choices and he didn't. He could have listened to Uncle, but he didn't. He waffles so much it isn't funny. And it's tiresome and unappealing. And actually I would call someone attempting to overcome a great burden, who is brave enough to admit limitations and face failures, and who is able to understand the value in help and teamwork a hero. And Zuko hasn't found his path. He yelled at Daddy and then ran off with no thought as to what would happen when he found the Gaang. Things are still left out of sorts with Iroh, now he has this whole "your mother is alive" thing. There are plenty of things to distract Zuko. There is nothing to say he'd turn to Azula's side like he did once befre, but there is nothing to say he isn't going to be distracted from his whole "join the Avatar".
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Post by alodar on Feb 12, 2008 21:20:25 GMT -5
The choice was never save Katara or save the world. He could throw Katara to the wolves and get better odds on saving the world, or he could try to save everyone save everyone and have much lower odds. Utilitarian solution vs. Idealistic solution. It took him a few minutes to become a glowing lighting rod, how long it would have taken him to become blinking force of nature is unclear. It took him 2-3 days to open the first 6 chakras, so it would have cost him around 8 hours, more if it doesn't go smoothly, which would be the difference between him showing up at the palace to be told every things ok by the earth king or finding Azula with the earth king by the throat in the middle of a palace she controls completely. Have we ever seen the Avatar state used in an actual fight? The siege of the North is the only time I can think of that his opponents didn't stand around waiting for him to attack. Taking on a bunch of firebending grunts at night is really not that impressive, I don't want imagine what a single lightning bolt would have done to a guy in the middle of a giant conducting puddle. Even Roku made sure to incapacitate Sozin before using the Avatar state. Roku was more powerful than Aang currently, Azula is probably stronger than Sozin, neither of which bode well for a glowing Aang versus Azula. On the other hand if he had just kept fighting for the few minutes until Iroh showed up to provide a distraction he could have escaped in one piece. Katara was able to escape when Aang was just dead weight, if Aang was in a position to help they might even have been able to get Iroh out. At the very least they would have been in a much better position to regroup and retaliate before Azula could fully solidify her hold over city. edit: Woah, what happened to my post? I thought it only took a day or so for him to unlock the 6 chakras? Watch the background light in the Guru Day 1: 1-Night 2-Daylight 3-Sunset Day 2: 4-Dayight 5-Daylight 6-Sunset 7-Night Which gives an average of about 8 hours a chakra.
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Post by luthien on Feb 12, 2008 21:36:44 GMT -5
And Zuko was abused: scarred, humiliated, told he was worthless and a failure, unloved; forced to bear a burden no one should have to bear but forced into by the unfortunate consequence of being born the son of a jealous control-freak like Ozai. And still being honorable enough to spare his arch enemy when he had the perfect chance to kill him or defend a village of people who should mean nothing to him. He's an amazing person. See that's where I disagree. Zuko has had plenty of times to make better choices and he didn't. He could have listened to Uncle, but he didn't. He waffles so much it isn't funny. And it's tiresome and unappealing. And actually I would call someone attempting to overcome a great burden, who is brave enough to admit limitations and face failures, and who is able to understand the value in help and teamwork a hero. And Zuko hasn't found his path. He yelled at Daddy and then ran off with no thought as to what would happen when he found the Gaang. Things are still left out of sorts with Iroh, now he has this whole "your mother is alive" thing. There are plenty of things to distract Zuko. There is nothing to say he'd turn to Azula's side like he did once befre, but there is nothing to say he isn't going to be distracted from his whole "join the Avatar". True, but realistically, they're not going to have Zuko backslide again. He's on an upwards path, so I don't think he's going to ditch the GAang when they need him most. I think the whole point of CoD was that both boys made terrible choices, choices whose repercussions they have to deal with in Season 3. I really think it's just as simple as that. Aang made the wrong choice, Zuko made the wrong choice, and things ended disastrously. Only when they make the right choice, together, will things work out well.
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Post by deana on Feb 12, 2008 21:45:00 GMT -5
I call Zuko yelling at his beloved Fire Lord, path found. It showed that everything that he held sacred up to that point, was not sacred to him anymore. Everything being his father's love, his honor, and his place within the fire nation. He willingly gave up his life as the prince of the fire nation, by yelling at daddy.
Who knows if Iroh wasn't as stubborn as Zuko before deciding to be good. It may have took his son's death to open Iroh's eyes. They are pretty much brainwashed in the Fire Nation.
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 21:46:11 GMT -5
And if I'm being harsh on Zuko, it's because he helps a village or attempts to help Zhao and he's basically a saint.
But Aang saves Zuko in the Blue Spirit, saves the Northern Watertribe, offers himself as a sacrifice in the Avatar Returns, saves the fisherman who yelled at him, accepted imprisonment and punishment for a prior Avatar's actions, stops a drill from boring a hole in the wall of Ba Sing Se and battles Azula, etc. and he is summarily condemned for one action which IMO, would have been confusing and upsetting to anyone, especially a 12 year old boy, and besides which would have made the story dull and boring.
I don't think Aang's choice in CoD was a bad one. I think he did what a lot of people would have done - save a friend. There is nothing that has been explicitly stated that the Avatar State is what will save the world. Aang can still master the elements, he can still be the most powerful bender. But in this case, in this war, it is going to be Aang's ability to represent all nations and to ally himself and build loyalty to him in others that will make the difference.
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Post by deana on Feb 12, 2008 21:58:07 GMT -5
And if I'm being harsh on Zuko, it's because he helps a village or attempts to help Zhao and he's basically a saint. But Aang saves Zuko in the Blue Spirit, saves the Northern Watertribe, offers himself as a sacrifice in the Avatar Returns, saves the fisherman who yelled at him, accepted imprisonment and punishment for a prior Avatar's actions, stops a drill from boring a hole in the wall of Ba Sing Se and battles Azula, etc. and he is summarily condemned for one action which IMO, would have been confusing and upsetting and would have made the story dull. I don't think Aang's choice in CoD was a bad one. Aang's is the hero, so one expects him to be good. One is thrown for a loop when the established villain of Season one does what he does in Season 2. Aang's choice was loyal and gallant, but if there was even a small chance that the Guru's tatics would've worked, sacrifices must be made.
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Feb 12, 2008 22:01:15 GMT -5
Woah, what happened to my post? It took him a few minutes to become a glowing lighting rod, how long it would have taken him to become blinking force of nature is unclear. It took him 2-3 days to open the first 6 chakras, so it would have cost him around 8 hours, more if it doesn't go smoothly, which would be the difference between him showing up at the palace to be told every things ok by the earth king or finding Azula with the earth king by the throat in the middle of a palace she controls completely. I thought it only took a day or so for him to unlock the 6 chakras? @amira- So; you're being harsh on Zuko because of how the fandom treats him? He is rewarded for doing good deeds because it is out of the norm for him! He was a big, bad villain; of course we'll be happy when he's finally doing good deeds! Aang's choice was a mistake! He brought upon his own death by choosing Katara over the power to save the world! He chose the girl over the world, and he had to pay the consequences. When they both start making the right choices, then t'll be fine, But until then, it's cataclysm.
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 22:01:52 GMT -5
And what Katara brings Aang, not as a friend, but as an ally and a fighter I think is something that should not be sacrificed. She is a capable fighter, a gifted waterbender, and someone who has become respected and a bit of a diplomat in her own right. She is an asset to Aang in that respect.
People I think are putting too much weight on the AS and what it is supposed to be used for. The show hasn't focused on 2.5 seasons of teamwork and building allies just for Aang to suddenly glow it up in the end and waste the fire lord in a few seconds.
Zuko wasn't the established villian. Zhao was.
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Feb 12, 2008 22:11:06 GMT -5
^Okay, so that whole "chasing the Avatar" thing was all fun and games? And all the fighting between him and the Gaang?
I'm pretty sure Zuko was the established villian. They didn't feature him in the first episode as the "bad guy" or put him on the box set cover in the classic villian "looking over everyone else" position for nothing.
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Post by deana on Feb 12, 2008 22:11:56 GMT -5
Both Zuko and Zhao were villains. It was great to see AS Aang put General Zhao in his place.
It's not like Katara would've been killed. She was just captured.
As much as I love the gaang, I want to see Aang (hopefully in the Avatar State) battle the Fire Lord on his own.
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Post by Amira on Feb 12, 2008 22:13:47 GMT -5
Zhao was more of a threat IMO than Zuko. Zhao was just out and out evil. He didn't care what he did or what happened to anyone, so long as he one-upped Zuko and got the Avatar. Killing the moon fish and him taunting Aang in "The Blue Spirit" were far more evil and troubling than anything Zuko did.
Um, we are talking about Azula here. But Aang didn't know that. He saw her in danger and responded. So him rushing off to save her if he saw her hanging above a tank of sharks would have been okay because she would have been in danger of being dead? Does the level of potential for death make a difference here?
So says you. I don't think Aang made a bad choice. I think he made the right choice because I don't think the AS has been explicitly stated as being what saves the world. I think thinking outside the box, building allies, teamwork, loyalty, friendship, Aang learning the elements, etc. will be what saves the world. This war is nothing that I think can be cured by a 3 second glow-fest.
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Silent_E
Appa
A True Flame Master
Posts: 241
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Post by Silent_E on Feb 12, 2008 22:16:42 GMT -5
The next time Aang uses the AS, he will have complete control of it and for the most part, complete control of the elements. He will need all of that to fight "Comet Ozai", but I predict Ozai will be more powerful than Aang at that point. (As far as power goes.) Aang will then have to "think like a mad genius" to win against him.
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