bibi
Warrior Sokka
all credits to relaxed_guru89
Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 6, 2006 2:41:20 GMT -5
This may have been asked or mentioned on the previous pages, but does anyone have any interpretations of the second part of Zuko's dream? We obviously know what the first part meant -_- dang you Zuko. I don't believe most of the theory about the first part, so it's not that obvious lol... Well, I haven't finished analysed it but the fact Zuko touched his scar to verify he's not dreaming anymore is for me the proof his scar is more part of him than he really thinks it is. "I'm me cause I have the scar"
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Post by Ichiroga on Dec 6, 2006 2:55:03 GMT -5
Man, Zuko used to be awesome before he joined Azula. used to be.
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Kyatto
Kyoshi Azula
Dance, magic dance!
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Kyatto on Dec 6, 2006 9:33:37 GMT -5
I actually cheered when Zuko sided with Azula. Season One Zuko was awesome. Butterfly Zuko was a pansy D:.
I'm glad Happy Zuko was only for like 20 minutes because any longer would've made me snap. Zuko makes a better Emokid.
Hooray for Zuko being a loaf of douchebread! XD Though I do think he planned this and will betray Azula during her weakest moment.
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reasonable
Meng
I think... I think I need to call tech support.
Posts: 252
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Post by reasonable on Dec 6, 2006 11:01:04 GMT -5
Interesting thing, remember how Iroh always goes on about how he has changed since his defeat at Ba Sing Se, the death of his son, and trip to the Spirit World? Yet, whenever we catch a glimpse of the type of man he was before that, he seems to be basically the same on almost every level.
It seems to me when we all heard Zuko was undergoing a "metamorphosis", we expected too much too fast. I think what he got out of that change was a deeper understanding of why he does the things he does.
From what little we know about Zuko's childhood, it is easy to assume he had no friends. Basically, Zuko's day consisted of hanging from his mother's apron strings, in between Azula teasing him. Then one day his mother gives up everything for Zuko. For her death /disappearance /coma /etc. Zuko gets the destiny of being the firelord. Probably on a very subconscious level Zuko was always obsessing about his honour and destiny for the reason that he didn't want to shame his mother's sacrifice. That would explain why he is always after Ozai's approval, wanting his father to recognize that Ursa's sacrifice was worth it in someway.
Zuko's metamorphosis brought about a level of change in Zuko, he probably understands why he does the things he does. That doesn't change what he does though. In fact, it would probably makes him more willing to go to further extremes to validate his mother's sacrifice. Like betraying Iroh, which even Azula admits, that if there is one thing Zuko isn't, it is a traitor.
A real, drastic change in Zuko wouldn't happen until he meets up with his mother(in the Natural or Spirit World) and gets a talking to about what exactly her motives were and probably some stuff about how she wanted Zuko to live a life without others deciding his fate or some other life affirming stuff.
Anyway that is just how I see Zuko and his development.
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Post by Avatar Pooface on Dec 6, 2006 12:53:31 GMT -5
I guess I was trying to say it was obvious he had to pick a side. If it was a premonition, like I have heard some people saying around here, I was oblivious to the fact that the blue dragon won in his dream. So I was extremely blindsided when he teamed up with his sister. Are there any other theories for the first part of his dream?
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Post by Ikkin on Dec 6, 2006 14:09:09 GMT -5
I guess I was trying to say it was obvious he had to pick a side. If it was a premonition, like I have heard some people saying around here, I was oblivious to the fact that the blue dragon won in his dream. So I was extremely blindsided when he teamed up with his sister. Are there any other theories for the first part of his dream? I'm not so sure that it was meant to be obvious that the Blue Dragon won. It could easily be interpreted in two different ways- either Zuko doesn't listen to either dragon (doesn't sleep, doesn't run), or he listens to the Blue Dragon (because she's the one who remains after everything falls apart). Once we know that he does choose the Blue Dragon, though, it's easy enough to see the rest of it as a premonition- he goes after his mom, and loses the rest of his preconceptions due to what he sees. It can be extended to use the Airbender dream, as well- after he loses everything he knew, he 'wakes up,' realizes that he's not all that different from the one who he's been chasing, and joins him. Of course, there's still multiple interpretations that can be given for the dream, but the dream-as-premonition theory is both straightforward and supported by existing canon.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 6, 2006 16:16:47 GMT -5
And even that one Earth King summary at Nick.com said, "Zuko's dreams predict strange things."
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Lulu
Katara
I wish, I wish I was a fish.
Posts: 97
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Post by Lulu on Dec 6, 2006 17:05:18 GMT -5
So if Zuko's dream was a prediction, it can mean two things
The first and second part were alternatives. If Zuko chose good, this would happen...if he chose evil, this would happen...and so forth. The first one was the path he had always been aiming for and meant he would become the Fire Lord if the Blue Dragon won. The second one would be what would happen if he changed his ways. So he'd basically become the "enemy", which is the Avatar. (Not literally, but you know what I mean)
The other way it could be interpreted is as two different occurances. First, he could turn to the Fire Nation and be on the side of power. Then, later, he could go over to the side of peace. If it's interpreted like this, then the first part is starting to come true. He probably won't become Fire Lord and THEN go over to the good guys, but it could mean he's going to be evil and then fight for peace later. OR, they could be in backwards order. He was good first (Happy Zuko), and then became bad (Crazy Zuko in Cave).
EDIT: dang, I tried really hard to keep it short. Why are my posts always so long??
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Post by mahatista on Dec 6, 2006 17:55:45 GMT -5
^ I don't think his dreams predicted what happened in the season finale but are predicting things for season three.
But regardless, I think the second of his dreams has something to do with this:
In Zuko Alone he is teaching Lee to use his broadswords. Here's what he says via transcript from Avatarspirit.net:
Zuko: Keep in mind, these are dual swords. (he takes the swords and begins to demonstrate moves for the boy) Two halves of a single weapon. Don't think of them as separate, because they're not. They're just two different parts of the same whole.
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So in his second dream he sees himself as Aang then wakes up, touches his scar, closes his eyes. Do these two things represent his own extremes? Once they come together he can become who he is supposed to be.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 6, 2006 18:50:53 GMT -5
Hey, you could be on to something there...
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
all credits to relaxed_guru89
Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 7, 2006 4:43:06 GMT -5
I don't believe any dragon won the fight: the blue wanted Zuko to close the eyes what he did not and the red to flee what he didn't too.
If he had closed his eyes (thus trust Azula), he wouldn't have seen his world crashing down (Black Sun?) and Azula trying to "eat" him. Then he did not so I think actually he doesn't trust Azula though he's not against her. If he had fled, he too wouldn't have seen what was happening but avoid getting hurt. As he chose none of them (Azula and Iroh, thus betraying the two just the same), I think he's chosing his own destiny.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Dec 7, 2006 5:34:11 GMT -5
As I have said elsewhere... to move onwards from your current path when you reach a crossroad you have THREE options...left...right...or straight ahead...Zuko doesn't have to chose the blue dragon OR the red dragon...I'm of the opinion that Zuko will choose the third path...one all of his own making...
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Post by Draco Argenteus on Dec 7, 2006 16:45:21 GMT -5
^I think that too! His whole life he's been doing things that other people want him to do (strange, b/c he's a prince). And even though Iroh had extremely good intentions, the path that Iroh walks is not necessarily the path that Zuko will/wants to walk. He's not happy with giving in to anybody (a trait of his father/sister) and he doesn't like to be cruel to others (a trait of Iroh). It makes sense that he would blend the two mannerisma together and choose his own path. Though, I don't like what he's chosen thus far...
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Post by astroanna on Dec 18, 2006 20:49:40 GMT -5
I’ve been thinking about our banished prince a lot lately and I wanted to put my thoughts out there. I should start with the disclaimer that I’m just an ordinary fan, no background in psychology or anything. Zuko starts out as a prince and as such his surroundings, luxuries, etc are above and beyond the ordinary person. Even so, his family is not immune to the everyday deficiencies of any other family. And what kind of family was he born into? Let’s examine, shall we? The earliest memories we have of Zuko occur at the age of say, ten years old (we don’t have a definite age). At this point his immediate family consists of his mother, father, sister, and grandfather. His uncle and cousin (before his death) are also in his life. Now his father is a cold, calculating man, driven by an unyielding ambition and clearly power-hungry. He is quick to praise his youngest daughter (and give what affection he is capable of giving to her) and is just as quick to withhold that praise from his son. Already we have a possible inferiority complex developing. In any case we have a young child feeling that he has something to prove, that he must somehow earn the love that should be unconditional. He is emotionally stunted, perhaps, but in no real danger as long as his mother is there to give him that love. Then his mother leaves. His first emotional blow occurs at the age of only ten. Now we have no memories of the time in Zuko’s life between the age of ten and fourteen. These are formative years for any child, a time when children take their first steps into the adult, independent world. They develop the foundation for their entire sense of self-esteem. We can only speculate, but this time in his life was probably not a normal, nurturing one. Under the thumb of his father he was probably made to feel that every action was a test. He was also probably compared to his sister at every opportunity. Is it any wonder, then, that in the next memory we see him in he is asking his uncle for an opportunity to prove himself? We all know what happened in the war room so I won’t recount it. What I would like to touch on briefly is Ozai’s reaction to it. For the transgression of speaking out of turn Zuko is punished by being scarred... FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. The punishment hardly fits the crime by any standards. For me this begs the question: was Ozai really punishing Zuko for what he did (which was a minor offense) or was he simply seizing an opportunity to do what he had wanted to do for years? Namely, discredit and exile his son so that his daughter (his favorite) could eventually take the throne. Not canon, of course, but IMO certainly a possibility. In any event we have the exiled Zuko told by his father that he has to regain his honor by capturing the Avatar, a feat that by all accounts is impossible. So we have a fourteen-year-old teenager (barely more than a child) who believes that he did something so unforgivable that he is banished from his homeland. When you strip it down to basics what we have is a child of abuse who is under his father’s psychological control. A boy who believes he deserved to be publicly humiliated, tortured, and permanently scarred. Zuko at this point is an emotional wasteland. He is a young teenager who is already starting to have the normal doubts and pangs of adolescence and then is traumatized by his father on top of that. After all this Zuko starts his journey to capture the Avatar and his uncle joins him. Again we can only speculate about this time but we know Iroh. He has taken Zuko under his wing as a son after the death of Lu Ten. He teaches Zuko firebending but I think there was more that occurs during this time. I think Iroh, who knew what Zuko had been through, did all he could to help Zuko’s emotional scars heal. There is a bond created during this time that we see during seasons one and two. Both Iroh and Zuko seem to benefit from this relationship and by all accounts it is a close one. Zuko finally gets to the point where Iroh feels he can tell him the truth. Ozai is not going to let him come home. Zuko doesn’t want to believe it at first and, in fact, doesn’t believe it. Eventually, though, he seems to come to the realization that his uncle would not lie to him and takes the step of letting the Avatar’s bison go. Zuko was presented with a perfect opportunity to capture the Avatar and he let it go. He seemed, at this point, to be on the road to emotional healing, or at least to letting go of the “I want to make my abusive Daddy proud of me so I’ll do whatever he says” mentality. The finale is when all of that somehow came undone. Azula, in her own unique and devious way, taps into the very insecurity she knows Zuko will respond to. He’s responded to it his whole life and she’s become a master at getting Zuko to do exactly what she wants him to. Iroh seemed to make a lot of headway but, in the end, perhaps it wasn’t enough... In season three Azula will most likely betray her brother the same way she always has but this time Zuko has burned his most valuable bridge. His uncle. Zuko will end up having to navigate the treacherous waters of his family without his moral compass and where will he end up then? Only time (and maybe Mike and Bryan ) will tell… *whew* Sorry for the rambling… discuss!
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Pleading Eyes
Kyoshi Mai
I feel violated... and crispy
Posts: 2,327
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Post by Pleading Eyes on Dec 18, 2006 21:05:40 GMT -5
astronanna?
One word: karma.
Thank you for your brilliant post, you are an asset to this community.
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