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Post by astroanna on Jan 20, 2007 22:52:31 GMT -5
Thanks, P-E!
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Post by waterfire (I am back!!!) on Jan 20, 2007 22:54:47 GMT -5
I blame his bad side.
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Post by dragonflly on Jan 21, 2007 0:51:03 GMT -5
I do not believe for a second that Iroh will not be there for him. Iroh let himself be captured for Zuko, he has already lost one son, he will not lose Zuko. Iroh is a very forgiving man, and he knows that this will be a very long and hard road for Zuko.
Iroh knows that Ozai will not accept his son, and Zuko could be in danger when he gets back to the FN, why would he not be there for him as he has been all along? I do not see Iroh giving up on Zuko unless he feels that he has done something so unforgivable that he has to give up on him. Iroh LOVES Zuko. I think Iroh knows that this "metamorophisis" is not anywhere close to being over, and he knows that Zuko needs him, and HE needs Zuko.
I know it's been said somewhere on this forum before: The last we see of Zuko, his scarred side was in hte shadows. This to me is pretty significant. Could the reason be because he may be finally putting his horrible past behind him? That was done for a reason. Maybe he is choosing his own path: the path of what feels right, the right thing to do. Which may not be totally right to us, but in the end he will be the awesome ruler he was meant to be. The ruler that is for his people, the ruler to bring peace. We all know that the boy is oozing goodness inside, but he fights it with all he has, because he only wants to make daddy happy. But, could it be that he has started to realize that daddy isn't all that important anymore? Azula screwed up when she said " He doesn't have too(restore your honor) you restored it yourself". To me she just admitted in a round-about way that she lied and daddy won't restore his honor ever, no matter what he does. It is a possibility that perhaps he read it that way too(I know I maybe giving the boy a little too much credit, but really he's not dumb, he just doesn't think).
Anyway, my point is (even though I strayed from it a bit) is that Iroh will always be there for Zuko. I believe that Iroh knows what Zuko's destiny is and is trying to get him there on the RIGHT path, not like his dad.
The reason I feel so strongly about this is Zuko's name. I can't remember where I saw it, but someone gave a meaning, so I had a friend, who's majoring in Japanese culture in college, check it out for me. The meaning was correct and has stayed in my mind ever since. Zuko: SON OF PEACE. Interesting choice of a name for a character presented as a bad guy from the beginning don't you think! This is why I will stand to the end saying Zuko will bring and end to the war and help Aang restore balance to the world!
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Post by Ikkin on Jan 21, 2007 1:17:05 GMT -5
I do not believe for a second that Iroh will not be there for him. Iroh let himself be captured for Zuko, he has already lost one son, he will not lose Zuko. Iroh is a very forgiving man, and he knows that this will be a very long and hard road for Zuko. Iroh knows that Ozai will not accept his son, and Zuko could be in danger when he gets back to the FN, why would he not be there for him as he has been all along? I do not see Iroh giving up on Zuko unless he feels that he has done something so unforgivable that he has to give up on him. Iroh LOVES Zuko. I think Iroh knows that this "metamorophisis" is not anywhere close to being over, and he knows that Zuko needs him, and HE needs Zuko. I know it's been said somewhere on this forum before: The last we see of Zuko, his scarred side was in hte shadows. This to me is pretty significant. Could the reason be because he may be finally putting his horrible past behind him? That was done for a reason. Maybe he is choosing his own path: the path of what feels right, the right thing to do. Which may not be totally right to us, but in the end he will be the awesome ruler he was meant to be. The ruler that is for his people, the ruler to bring peace. We all know that the boy is oozing goodness inside, but he fights it with all he has, because he only wants to make daddy happy. But, could it be that he has started to realize that daddy isn't all that important anymore? Azula screwed up when she said " He doesn't have too(restore your honor) you restored it yourself". To me she just admitted in a round-about way that she lied and daddy won't restore his honor ever, no matter what he does. It is a possibility that perhaps he read it that way too(I know I maybe giving the boy a little too much credit, but really he's not dumb, he just doesn't think). Anyway, my point is (even though I strayed from it a bit) is that Iroh will always be there for Zuko. I believe that Iroh knows what Zuko's destiny is and is trying to get him there on the RIGHT path, not like his dad. The reason I feel so strongly about this is Zuko's name. I can't remember where I saw it, but someone gave a meaning, so I had a friend, who's majoring in Japanese culture in college, check it out for me. The meaning was correct and has stayed in my mind ever since. Zuko: SON OF PEACE. Interesting choice of a name for a character presented as a bad guy from the beginning don't you think! This is why I will stand to the end saying Zuko will bring and end to the war and help Aang restore balance to the world! I definitely agree with you about Iroh. He loves Zuko, and he's not going to give up on the boy that easily. (Seriously, why is Iroh assumed to have less faith in Zuko than we Zuko fans have?) Azula's "you restored your own honor" was smart, if you think about it - she subverted Iroh's lessons for her own purposes. But I agree that it'll probably come back to bite her, because that's just the kind of thing Zuko needs to learn so he can get on the right side. As for Zuko's name... The Japanese meaning is interesting, though I think the Chinese meanings (two different meanings, because Zuko is written with different characters on the wanted poster and for his tale) are also interesting (and more likely to be intentional, IMO). In Tales of Ba Sing Se, the characters used to write Zuko's name mean "revive/come back to life" and "studies/books/family;" on the wanted poster, they mean "elderly/parent/ancestor" and "pirate/invader to country/enemy" according to a thread on ASN (I would link to it, but ASN's forum doesn't like linking, apparently; it's called "Translations & meanings of Chinese texts seen on Avatar" if you want to look).
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Jan 21, 2007 1:24:41 GMT -5
In Japanese Zuko's 'Son of Peace'? Given the Chinese translations have been given as 'Enemy of the Parent' (as it is written on his wanted poster) and 'Resurrection of the Ruler' (as written on his tale in The Tales of Ba Sing Se)...it kind of says a lot about Zuko's destiny...screams it really... *EDIT* Seems Ikkin and I had the same thought at about the same time...talk about backing up an argument
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Post by waterfire (I am back!!!) on Jan 21, 2007 2:42:26 GMT -5
hmmmmmm that is a really good one.
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Post by luthien on Jan 21, 2007 8:39:19 GMT -5
You guys have actually given me quite a bit to think on as I'm still trying to wrap my head around Zuko's actions in the season finale. At first I was very disappointed, taking what happened at face value (*facepalm* "Zuko! How on Earth could you believe Azula?"). Then I started to think, maybe Zuko plotted something with Iroh to gain entrance back into the Fire Nation to search for his mother (considering there was a brief period of time when Iroh and Zuko were alone after Azula left). And now I'm mulling over the possibility that Zuko *did* make the choice of his own free will, simply to find out if his father still wants him.
At this point, he's only heard directly from Azula that his father wants to lock him up. He might not fully believe her, thinking the plan to take him and Iroh into custody was solely Azula's idea, not Ozai's. I think he wants to head back to the Fire Nation just to make sure - just to be 100 percent sure - that his father doesn't want him back before taking a drastically different path in his life. I think he just wants to know with some measure of certainty that his former life is just that, his former life. It's tough to move forward with nagging questions in the back of your head. It's much easier once you realize there's nowhere left to go but forward. But I do believe he deeply regrets that betraying Iroh was part of the process.
I think he will eventually come around - perhaps even joining the GAang. But he needs to completely break his ties with the Fire Nation leadership (not the Fire Nation itself - which sadly, he hasn't been able to separate his country from its leaders yet, which is another step in the process) to do it with a "clear conscience," so to speak.
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Post by astroanna on Jan 21, 2007 13:18:53 GMT -5
I see where you guys are coming from, and I fervently hope you're right, because I would love for Zuko to take the path of leadership, strength, and justice. I have a strong feeling, though, that he'll have to suffer some serious ramifications from his decision in the season finale first. He has to learn that lesson, perhaps the hard way. Actions have consequences, and you can't make a decision without being ready to deal with the aftermath. If his relationship with Iroh is damaged, he has to take the steps to repair it. If it can't be repaired, he has to live with that. *sigh* We shall see.....how long till Season three?
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jan 21, 2007 16:41:03 GMT -5
My theory is, though no one seems to want to agree with me, that Zuko will capture Aang and give him to the Fire Lord around the middle or beginning of the season, but Ozai will still reject Zuko. Why would this happen?
A) Zuko has been hunting Aang for years now, and he never gives up. B) With all of the determination we've seen from him, I don't think his storyline could resolve himself until he finally succeeds in the thing he's been trying the hardest to do. C) He wants his own life back. He doesn't want to be a fugitive in the Earth Kingdom forever, and even if that means going against Iroh's advice, Zuko has too many loyalties to his home country. D) I honestly think that nothing short of this could make Zuko realize his father doesn't want him back. I can't see Zuko ever just coming to that conclusion by himself as he sits around. It would be too rushed if he just scratched his head in the first episode of the new season, said "Hey, I screwed up." Nor do I even think that if Zuko faced his father alone and Ozai still didn't accept him would Zuko be able to move on. There would still always be that nagging doubt of "If I had the avatar..." I don't think Zuko's issues with his father could be resolved any other way. E) Aang's wounded, Zuko would be able to capture him. F) It would be a good way for the gAang to get into the FN G) If the gAang saw Zuko talking with Ozai, they would get an understanding of his motives they never had before, and be more willing to believe him later. The secene I see basically has Zuko completely breaking down when Ozai rejects him. Zuko will furiously explain that all of the hardships he went through in finding the avatar were all for him, all for Ozai. Zuko didn't even want to catch the kid, he just did it for his father. Ozai becomes angry at his son's display of weakness, perhaps even angry enough to administer a second scar, and orders Zuko, Iroh, and all of the gAang except the avatar locked up. This is where I perhaps see Mai/Ty Lee freeing Zuko, disgusted as they were at how Ozai treated him. Once Zuko and Iroh are free, Zuko, after spending a night in comtemplation alone in a dark cell, frees the gAang, and agrees to help them rescue the avatar. H) This is where I feel would could get a little taste of how tough Ozai is. Aang is freed, Ozai, Azula, and the elite firebending guards come crashing in, commence a crazy-@$$ fight sequence that we've all dreamed of. First we have Aang vs Ozai, but the Fire Lord completely whoops a weakened Avatar's butt until Iroh takes in. Now we have brother vs brother. Zuko fights Azula, with many a flashing blue flame and fancy kick, while Katara, Mai/Ty Lee and whoever else (I've considered the possibility that Sokka and Toph escaped capture and are flying to the FN on Appa) take on the elite firebenders. I) I think Ozai will kill Iroh here, which would push Zuko just over the edge enough to want to help the avatar take his father down. J) This also gives a chance for Zuko to try to redirect Azula's lightining. I think he'll do it, send the lightning up at the roof which causes the ceiling to collapse, meaning everyone has to get the heck out and the bad guys are separated from the good guys. Zuko messes up, lightning through the heart, he barely has enough strength the drag Iroh out, say his goodbyes, before he falls unconscious and the good guys take him out with them. K) Zuko wakes up later, weakened but alive, and now knows what he should do: take out Ozai.
This is my crackbrained theory.
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Post by astroanna on Jan 21, 2007 17:07:23 GMT -5
Interesting theory....I don't think anything short of something that dramatic could turn things around for Zuko....I agree with you that Zuko may not believe his father doesn't want him back until he faces him personally...
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Post by astroanna on Jan 21, 2007 19:29:36 GMT -5
I keep going back to Zuko in my mind and there's something that keeps coming back to me... Zuko's story in Season 2 seemed clear to us, the viewers. We see him contemplating his past, we see him suffer through his emotional turmoil and grow in power and wisdom under the guidance of his loving uncle. We think to ourselves, "there's no way for season 2 to end without a dramatic statement of Zuko's new loyalties". And in a way we're right. Except we get it turned around. See, Mike and Bryan (brilliant bastards! ) guide us right in the direction they want us to go. The wrong one. So we watch, stunned and horrified, as the season finale unfolds and at the end of it go "How could that happen!?" It happened because the great writers do this to their audience. They set up our characters and the circumstances surrounding them so that we're led to think one thing when, in reality, the writers are planning to go somewhere else completely. One of the best examples of this in recent years has been the Harry Potter saga. J.K. Rowling, over and over again, tells her audience just enough to let us think "she's going to point A" when her destination is actually point X. In book 3 we think Sirius Black is a traitor and murderer only to find out he is actually Harry's godfather and loving friend. In Book 4 we think Moody is a friend and ally when in fact he is a murderous imposter. We don't know what to expect from Rowling because she's one of the elite. So I'm not going to say for sure what's going to happen to Zuko because Mike and Bryan have now proven themselves to be among the elite. And you can't predict what the elite writers will do. Therefore I, for one, will simply wait, with bated breath, until season three starts. Continuing to speculate, of course, but I'll no longer be surprised by the unexpected.
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Post by astroanna on Aug 2, 2007 23:04:35 GMT -5
OK, thought I'd revive this thread in honor of our favorite banished prince... Just to bring up one really cool part of the new season 3 preview, one of the lines Zuko says to Iroh is "You brought this on yourself, you know. We could have returned together. You could have been a hero!" I think this just goes to show how little Zuko has really learned about Iroh. Zuko doesn't seem to want to understand that his uncle isn't out for glory, or "honor" as Zuko understands it. Iroh is about trying to do the right thing no matter what, and that is what he has always tried to teach Zuko. Has Zuko learned this lesson? I don't think so, at least not yet. Perhaps through the course of season 3 he will, but for now I think he is still adrift.
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Post by dragonflly on Aug 2, 2007 23:57:43 GMT -5
He'll learn it sooner or later. I'd prefer sooner cause I really don't want to see him all dark and nasty. Those words he said to his uncle are angering. They need each other, and I hope they can find each other. Iroh will never give up on Zuko. He's hurt right now, but if Zuko needs him, I believe Iroh will be there. And if he's not I'll cry for a week and then cry some more.
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