bibi
Warrior Sokka
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Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 4, 2006 10:53:34 GMT -5
I don't care if Zuko's gay or not (well I suport Maiko so we'll have a problem if it's the case lol), it's just those jokes appear when the latest fashion in the fandom is to bash on Zuko so, maybe I'm oversensitive and paranoïac, but I've never been fond in naming 'gay' someone or something you found stupid or girly. So please, the shorter jokes are, the better they are.
Back on the topic *try to save the topic*, the development of Zuko is just fine. He's starting to master his own destiny: nearly all this season he has been lead by Iroh, by Ozai in the first. Now he's finally becoming an adult, getting ride of all the other's influence on his life, making his own decisions. He manage d to get out of Iroh's now it's Ozai's. As he haven't seen his father for three years, their future encounter would help him to stop idealize Ozai and he'll now be free. That's a good job the creators made: a future FireLord should be a leader not a follower.
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Post by mahatista on Dec 4, 2006 12:05:29 GMT -5
On Topic, I think he's still transforming. Iroh mentions his fever being gone earlier when Happy Zuko's goobering about, but doesn't mention the actual metamorphosis until he's in the cave. It does seem like having a fever is not quite the "unpleasant experience" Iroh was talking about. Everyone gets intense fevers at some point in their lives. Zuko needs to go through something more unpleasant than that to find himself. Except I really thought this whole season was the unpleasant experience he was going through toward the transformation. What else are they going to do with him.
And I want to again register my hatred for the Anakin Skywalker storyline. It's unbelievable and it's a cop-out. I truly hope the writers are better than that.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 4, 2006 13:58:59 GMT -5
But Zuko wasn't even really good to begin with. He almost turned good... then he copped out and rushed back to the bad side (for now).
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Post by Ikkin on Dec 4, 2006 14:35:24 GMT -5
But Zuko wasn't even really good to begin with. He almost turned good... then he copped out and rushed back to the bad side (for now). I'm not sure that Zuko can really be judged in the typical 'good side = good character, evil side = evil character' kind of way. He's never been on the good side, but it could be said that he was still a good character. If he acted exactly the same way he acted currently, but was on Aang's side, I don't think anyone would call him a bad character, just a confused person who is really good at heart. It's just because he's on the wrong side that we think of him that way. The only action of Zuko's that's bad, regardless of the side, is his betrayal of his Uncle. And we don't know where that's going to go just yet.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 4, 2006 15:07:31 GMT -5
I agree Zuko's not pure good or pure evil. I always pictured him like Ying and Yang with his scar. A purebread Fire Nation prince raised to spread chaos, with this little patch of good on him(or maybe it's vice-versa, depends on your point of view). I personally was surprised by his choice because it goes against everything all of us were expecting (except the few random crackpots who are now yelling "I told ya so!' ;p), but I don't think it was as stupid as most people seem to think.
Imagine it this way: you have a sister like Azula and a father like Ozai in modern times. Your father never liked you and kicked you out of his house so you've been living in cheap apartments for three years. You're convicted of a crime, and your sister is a police officer, and she comes after you. So you go on the run, trying to avoid her. Then she finds you, has the chance to arrest you, but says that she needs your help finding an even bigger criminal and offers to forget your crimes and take you back home if you help. Would you do it, or stay on the run?
That might not make as much sense aloud as it did in my head, but I tried.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 4, 2006 15:24:08 GMT -5
^Hey, you have a point about that little analogy. Makes Zuko's betrayal more understandable and believable.
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Post by Dutchy on Dec 4, 2006 15:41:44 GMT -5
I hate that :X and he is a moron for leaving iroh i just hate him he ..... up the whole thing that everyone is working for who should you trust the one who is like a dad to you or a sister who tried to kill you 5 seconds ago I mean come on make up your mind :X I could write a insultations-dictionary with the things I think about him!
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
all credits to relaxed_guru89
Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 4, 2006 16:12:16 GMT -5
I think Zuko needs to escape from Iroh. Yes escape. Zuko has two oppresive fathers.
Ozai who hold his honor and love he craved to have. Ozai wants a son Zuko's not and for this reason, prefered Azula ("you're lucky to be born"), so Zuko's running after what Ozai wanted him to be. After three years without seeing him, Zuko idealized him to the point it scared me.
Iroh loves Zuko a bit too much. He's his master, his only friend, he followed him after the banishment, thought of him as his second son. That's nice but imagine the pression Zuko had on his shoulder: someone so nice and so much above you was following you in hell and ask you to go deeper in it (cause living in EK is hell for Zuko), will you try to take your own decision or shut up for not hurting him ?
We want Zuko to be FireLord, right ? How can he manage to be a wise and independent sovereign with two big ghosts like Iroh and Ozai in his back ?
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Zink
Ty Lee
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8
Posts: 4,279
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Post by Zink on Dec 4, 2006 16:28:16 GMT -5
^ I don't know if I quite agree with you there. Iroh knows that Zuko can and should seize his own destiny, i.e.: challenging Ozai for the throne, but he also knows that Zuko had to come to that conclusion on his own- he couldn't tell him that. He was trying to help Zuko realize he was strong enough for the task, what he knew all along. And Zuko clearly wasn't feeling that "pressure" the same way Aang would: for most of the 1st season, and some of the 2nd, he treated Iroh like crap. That is not exactly the submissive behavior one would expect from the hero-worshipper you're describing.
However, I do think Zuko made the right decision by staying and facing Azula when Iroh told him to jump. Iroh has his best interests at heart, but that requires him staying alive, and I think Zuko values honor over life when it comes to Azula and Ozai- he would rather stand, fight and die than run and live another day.
I personally think Zuko and Iroh planned the whole "betrayal" thing. Zuko is far too intelligent to choose the kid who's been chasing him all across the Earth Kingdom over the man who's been keeping him alive and well and putting up with his emo-fests all over the Earth Kingdom, the Water Tribe and probably the Fire Nation as well.
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
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Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 4, 2006 16:39:30 GMT -5
It's because of the first season, Ozai's influence was stronger than Iroh's but the latter grows even more after Avatar State: Iroh who's begging for money for the two can eat, Iroh who's following you everywhere even when you told him not to, Iroh's showing you his special moves...quite difficult to fight back, isn't it? Zuko tried of course to fight it back but the guilt created by so much a devotion doesn't let him. Now the same Iroh who told him his father would never want him back, implying countless times that he should give up, praising him when he gave up: I highly doubt Iroh ever want what you're thinking he was.
And about the whole plot, I doubt they had time to master a plan.
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Post by mahatista on Dec 4, 2006 16:46:39 GMT -5
Well, one thing's for sure, Zuko has a better chance of getting things done if he rides with Azula. The Avatar is too big of a target and Iroh has no power so they wind up being blown around by the winds of fate. Not good if you're looking to regain your wrongfully attained birthright
Azula's his best chance of getting at least close to the Fire Lord. And also of finding something out about his mother. Remember his dream pretty much told him everything that would happen if he went with the blue serpant. It hinted that the entire Fire Nation would go down (when the soldiers crumpled). I wonder if he will try to control the situation once he's used Azula to his own ends.
I dunno. He's never exhibited that kind of forethought, but then he's in the middle of a metamorphosis so who knows what he's thinking?
The animators were very careful to give no clue about his real feelings once he betrayed Iroh. His expression was either neutral, wrathful (heat of battle) or grim. But not really filled with regret or sorrow, nor was there happiness. That's how you do a cliffhanger I suppose. Even his back-glance at Katara during the supposed romantic moment had no real expression. Disgruntled is how I would describe it. What does that mean? What's he feeling?
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Post by Ikkin on Dec 4, 2006 16:50:38 GMT -5
Now the same Iroh who told him his father would never want him back, implying countless times that he should give up, praising him when he gave up: I highly doubt Iroh ever want what you're thinking he was. Are you saying that Iroh thinks that Zuko should just be happy as a tea server, and that he should give up on his hopes of becoming Fire Lord? I don't think that's the case at all. Iroh continues to call Zuko 'Prince Zuko,' despite the fact that he's banished and they're on the run; he says that the metamorphosis will make Zuko into the 'beautiful prince' that he was meant to be. Iroh knows that Zuko wants his birthright, and he's never said that Zuko should give it up. Whether Zuko knows this or not is still in question (the red dragon telling him to 'get out of here' seems to imply that he thinks Iroh wants him to give it up). And I think, if Zuko isn't trying to play Azula, such a misunderstanding would be part of the reason for his betrayal. He's looked inside of him and decided what he wants- the throne of the Fire Nation- and he's decided to go after it, just like Iroh told him to (rather ironic, actually). Iroh does want him to make his own decision about what he wants, and he knows better than Zuko how he'd get it. He just never told Zuko that, so Zuko might not know that there's another way to the throne besides through Azula.
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
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Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 4, 2006 16:56:56 GMT -5
^Actually I do. In any cases, Iroh was starting to have too much influence on Zuko.
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Post by Ikkin on Dec 4, 2006 16:59:51 GMT -5
The animators were very careful to give no clue about his real feelings once he betrayed Iroh. His expression was either neutral, wrathful (heat of battle) or grim. But not really filled with regret or sorrow, nor was there happiness. That's how you do a cliffhanger I suppose. Even his back-glance at Katara during the supposed romantic moment had no real expression. Disgruntled is how I would describe it. What does that mean? What's he feeling? I'm not sure that this is true, though. He looks like some mix of sad and angry (and sometimes shocked) throughout the whole battle scene, not just 'wrathful.' He actually looked downright crazy when he was punching fire at Aang really quickly. And he looked almost sick in the last scene, mostly due to the shading under his eyes.
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
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Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 4, 2006 17:01:55 GMT -5
The animators were very careful to give no clue about his real feelings once he betrayed Iroh. His expression was either neutral, wrathful (heat of battle) or grim. But not really filled with regret or sorrow, nor was there happiness. That's how you do a cliffhanger I suppose. Even his back-glance at Katara during the supposed romantic moment had no real expression. Disgruntled is how I would describe it. What does that mean? What's he feeling? I'm not sure that this is true, though. He looks like some mix of sad and angry (and sometimes shocked) throughout the whole battle scene, not just 'wrathful.' He actually looked downright crazy when he was punching fire at Aang really quickly. And he looked almost sick in the last scene, mostly due to the shading under his eyes. You know, the meaning of those or that expression it's pretty subjective.
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