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Post by mahatista on Jul 28, 2008 11:25:52 GMT -5
@scarlett: If the first dip into merchandising for Avatar had been successful then they would have done more. They just want/need to make money. Making the toys/games costs money so they'll only come back to the one that earns back a bit -- like Spongebob, Fairly Odd Parents and Jimmy Neutron. Simple action figures probably would have been the best bet for Avatar, but Nick's going to go with the kinds of things that research tells them will sell. And anyway, that's just my amateur opinion. I can think of a million cool things they could have sold but didn't, but I can't guarantee that those things would have been successful, they're just ideas of things I know I would have liked. It's possible that Mike and Bryan would like to do movies like Miyazaki. Something a little more mature than Avatar. So they'll leave the entire Avatar world behind and come up with something new. Like I said, if Nick sees some profit in it and Mike and Bryan don't want to do it, they can probably find someone else to do it. But I doubt they'd do any more of this story because they probably want episodes that can just be plugged in anywhere. Which is why we constantly see Jet, The Great Divide and Avatar Day reruns. And just for the record, I don't criticize Nick for canceling a show that doesn't make them any money. A lot of people here freak about Spongebob, but that show makes all the other shows possible. Animation is expensive -- especially animation like Avatar -- and if it doesn't pay any dividends it just takes away from all the other possibilities. They allowed them to finish the arc and they didn't have to. They stunk up the scheduling aspect, but I don't think they knew what to do with a non-humongous fandom that was also very committed. They seemed to really be floundering with this one. In any case, Mike and Bryan might not have enjoyed the restrictions of a 7+ show and a mega-corp like Nick. I don't blame them for wanting to do something else at this point. EDIT: Thanks for the *karma* CT. And here's one *karma* back at ya. Get to work on that PM!
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Jul 28, 2008 12:02:28 GMT -5
Well I was using the female toys as an example, because I think even making the female action figures maybe instead of some of the other ones would have made a difference. There are a ton of things they could have done, really, but that was just one example. Obviously it costs money to make toys, but if you make things people want to buy then you end up making money, that's how it works, and for me I don't think they did a good job of making things people want, but I guess I'm not in the marketing business so it's just my own opinion and based on what I've heard from other fans.
And I know they based it on their first time selling toys, but that was earlier on I'm sure, and Avatar became more popular in the second season and on. I mean, I didn't start watching it really until the end of season 2. Maybe they just got a wrong estimate on how the merchandise would sell because they didn't have as big of a fanbase...*shrug*
They said in the Q&A that the movie was a faithful adaptation of book 1, and I've heard that they are hoping to do 3 movies, the other two obviously being the 2nd and 3rd books. They also asked if they would try to appeal to an older audience, and they basically said no.
Edit: I realized that you were talking about doing a movie not Avatar-related. Sorry, misread that!
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Post by mahatista on Jul 28, 2008 13:17:19 GMT -5
Well I was using the female toys as an example, because I think even making the female action figures maybe instead of some of the other ones would have made a difference. There are a ton of things they could have done, really, but that was just one example. Obviously it costs money to make toys, but if you make things people want to buy then you end up making money, that's how it works, and for me I don't think they did a good job of making things people want, but I guess I'm not in the marketing business so it's just my own opinion and based on what I've heard from other fans. I know there are lots of things a fan my age would go for. But I think they ended up with a huge problem merchandising-wise because the fan base is actually pretty varied. From 7 up to adult. So what would appeal to a 7 year old isn't going to necessarily appeal to teens/adults and vice versa. So they pick the one that's most likely to spend money on toys and that's the 7 yr olds. And people didn't want them. They did some dvd junk for the rest of us and made a bit on that, but it wasn't enough I think. This goes back to the varied age groups that make up the fandom, I think. Very hard to target when it's this wide. And targeting is important, unfortunately. They'll probably do a lot of little kiddie books though. I think that's probably the best way for them to milk any remaining $$ from the fan base until the live action movies. [/size][/quote] Yes, I was talking about aside from their remaining Avatar commitments.
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Jul 28, 2008 13:57:03 GMT -5
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Post by mahatista on Jul 28, 2008 14:12:45 GMT -5
Exactly. There's a lot of money in kiddie books. Nick's are some of the worst, most vapid, dashed-off ones out there. I don't recommend them. But fans will probably see a lot of them up until the movie gives the marketing people a better idea of who to sell things to.
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Kataang101
Mai
100 years alone, Forever Together
Posts: 4,398
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Post by Kataang101 on Jul 28, 2008 14:32:39 GMT -5
hmmm i think i want to buy that....lol
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 28, 2008 21:07:16 GMT -5
^^ Ditto. They had me at "Ships on or around December 16".
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Jul 29, 2008 3:48:13 GMT -5
As a viewer who watches the show for everything BUT the romantic relationships that one's definitely not going on my Amazon wish list...I'd rather eat wax fruit!
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Post by implode on Jul 29, 2008 4:59:14 GMT -5
jeez. i just read this entire thread from start to finish, and i feel compelled to tell my story now. it's completely irrelevent to most matters at hand, and i advise anyone who's following this thread for actual news about what's in store for the world of avatar to skip it. still, this show has touched me in a way that i didn't think animation would ever be able to do again, so i would be doing myself a disservice to keep this inside...
whew. okay.
i am, first and foremost, an invader zim fan. i had read "JtHM" at a ridiculously inappropriate age and vaguely remember liking it despite not really understanding it, but the day i was flipping through the channels and caught the last 8 minutes of "gir goes crazy and stuff" everything in my life changed. i spent the entire day researching the show, joined a fledgling forum dedicated to it that one or two or the storyboarders posted at occasionally, and basically spent more time on the internet that day then i ever had in my life.
cut to now - i am the administrator of (arguably) the most popular invader zim forum in history. members of our forum have met personally with people deeply involved in the creation of the show, have been given essentially garbage bags full of extra stuff from the show that likely would have never surfaced were it not for our persistance and the willingness to overstep his boundaries of a renegade crew member. we have now had 6 seperate conventions where members of the forum have travelled across the world to meet and celebrate the show with one another. the first existed solely so we could screen previously unaired episodes, but now we just do them because we've become such a big part of each others lives that we refuse to concede to geographical limitations. all in all, i'd say that animation/fandom has had a bigger impact on my life than anything else has, excluding my family. so please excuse me if you feel i'm being condescending in any way - it is the furthest thing from my intent.
i've known about avatar since far before it's actual inception - one of the co-creators, bryan konietzko, was a storyboarder for invader zim, and since a vast array of zim crew members posted on our message board (though i don't think bryan ever did) we got the word that it was coming in extreme advance. i was very excited from the moment i heard about it - i knew bryan was a very talented storyboarder, and i'd heard that the graham bros. (other fantastic zim boarders) were going to be onboard for the show as well, which was enough for me to get into a bit of a frenzy. to me, it felt as though zim was going to live on somehow through the creation of this new series. of course, this was not the case at all - instead something new and beautiful came of it, and i'm much happier this way. another zim-themed show would have just been doomed to the fate zim had, after all.
being a fan of invader zim, i feel as though we hold a bit of a monopoly on being a jilted fanbase operating out of nickelodeon's target demographic, like i'm sure original ren & stimpy fans would rabidly disagree with. despite being a beautifully animated show with interesting storylines and a passionate fanbase, our little show was brutally abused by nickelodeon. the advertising dwindled from at least apparent to horrifically non-existant, the show's time slot was kicked around more times than i care to recall, episodes were altered at the expense of the network to eliminate potentially sensitive material from airing, ENTIRE 11-MINUTE EPISODES were pulled from the air at the last minute and replaced with commercials and a 5 minute li'l romeo video because a concept episode about a slow explosion reminded someone at the network of 9/11, and therefore despite the fact that the animators put in crazy amounts of effort changing the color of the explosion to cartoony green, it still ended up getting pulled from the air the night it was supposed to premiere.
and finally, after being signed to another full 20 episode run, the show was cancelled 7 episodes into the new season. zim was dead.
whoever said that nick has trouble with handling new shows, i think they're entirely correct, to an extent. my take on it is - nick has trouble handling new shows that don't appeal to their target demographic. nick isn't like cartoon network, who, despite all their pull with children, still realize that some adults are also interested in cartoons and therefore make an effort to accomodate them. nick seems completely and utterly flabbergasted when one of their shows attracts a significant teen/adult audience, and that flabbergastation seems to turn to disgust and contempt relatively quickly after that. nickelodeon seems to want no part of anything that doesn't appeal directly to children, because that is not the image they are trying to convey to their sponsors, that's not what is outlined in their 10-point plans for a successful fiscal quarter, and it's certainly not going to convince parents that their station is a perfect babysitter for their kids.
and can you blame them? i suppose you could - a part of me still does, i think. but they have a plan, and they're sticking to it. which, i suppose, is honorable, to an extent. i must say, i'm a much bigger fan of the type of "roll with the punches" philosophy where you alter your strategy to fit what logic dictates, but can you really say you don't understand nickelodeon's decision to distance itself from older audiences? older audiences do things like fantasize about a 15 year old boy and a 9 year old girl hooking up. older audiences spend vast amounts of time detailing aspects of cartoon characters lovelives. these types of things do not appeal to sponsors that are marketing pudding and my little ponies and remote controlled cars to little kids. these types of things scare sponsors away.
all that said, i still think nick is not the great satan some fans make them out to be. after zim was cancelled, they let most of the crew stick around to make one final episode - a christmas episode, which turned out very good, despite not giving any closure to the storyline at all. if any of you are familiar with the show, you realize that despite all the absurdity and episodism, there WAS an ongoing storyline, that was meant to climax in a "movie special" much the same way avatar did. it never came to pass, of course, but the fact that they let them stay to make the christmas episode meant a lot to me, because at this point zim was had become a financial liability. the only people who watched it were us weirdoes, and despite merchandise flying off the shelves at hot topic, it just wasn't enough to support the cost of making a show that only weird adults watch.
however, avatar was different. avatar had an appeal with kids AND adults. it was truly the show that zim fans wanted ZIM to be, in that sense, because it had enough demographic support behind it to convince nick that finishing the series would be a financially responsible idea! oh, how great it truly is to be an avatar fan, in that sense, because despite all the questions we have about the finale, at least there was a finale. there's plans for a live action movie, and though i'm hesitant to actually believe there'll be more animated avatar: the last airbender on the air in the future, the ratings for the finale certainly bring my spirits up in that regard. you guys have hope. the main theme for the serpents pass was that giving up all hope in favor of a cold, calculating approach is the wrong philosophy to employ in most instances, and i am confident when i say that seeing more a:tla is one of them.
there is still a decent chance that avatar may return in some non-live action form, and for that i am very grateful, but i'm even more grateful that this show actually got to play out all its storylines and come to a conclusion on their own terms. to be honest, i wasn't thrilled with the finale, and i really feel as though the approach they took intentionally invites too many questions for a series that is ending, rather than simply being open ended. but in spite of all that, at least it made it to the end. many great shows are cut down before they have a chance to do so, so please, appreciate what you have as a fandom. i'm not saying don't clamor for more - heck, i'll be right beside you doing the clamoring. but at the end of the day, if this is all we get, well... i'd say we got a lot more that we ever could have hoped for after the first episode aired in february of 2005.
sorry for typing all of that in here, i know it's probably the wrong place for it. i hope it doesn't disrupt any actual relevent conversation to comic-con stuff.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 29, 2008 5:30:51 GMT -5
^^ You make a good point, implode. I'll try to keep your wise and temperate words in mind the next time I feel like taking a big hot Nicksplat all over Nickleodeon.
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attonbitus
Blue Spirit
I'm in ur clouds, steel'n ur thundar
Posts: 2,121
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Post by attonbitus on Jul 29, 2008 10:15:01 GMT -5
I'm just said B&M couldn't get the avatar brand away from Nick so they could have more artistic freedom. That being said I'll still buy the dvds.
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Sakura
FN Sokka
Sakura. Just Sakura.
Posts: 1,744
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Post by Sakura on Jul 29, 2008 19:02:24 GMT -5
Umm... Sorry for kinda-maybe-sorta being all off-topic but... Do you guys know if there are any vids of the fan meetups?
Sorry for actin n00bish.
Ah well, kiddie books are better than nothing, right?
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Post by dragonflly on Jul 30, 2008 13:13:52 GMT -5
I have all of the books, except for the coloring book, I couldn't find it! It's just being a fan I want to have all that they put out for Avatar, I guess that's what they bank on. Even if they are for younger readers and are really bad, it's Avatar, that's why I got them. And I still stand by my "if I don't see the storyboard of Ursa, it never existed" statement. I think it's all talk, thinking it'll make us be quiet. I want to see it, that's all!
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Lisa31468
Haru
We all have to do our part to win this war.
Posts: 313
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Post by Lisa31468 on Jul 30, 2008 19:12:34 GMT -5
I'm really glad it's over. It was an epic finale and well worth the wait.
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Post by Musogato on Jul 30, 2008 19:38:28 GMT -5
Thank you for the amazing post, Implode. Seeing it from that way definitely puts things in perspective, and how lucky Avatar was. I haven't seen any fan meetup videos (though I heard there was a cosplay contest at the Avatar panel?), but there are videos from some SDCC '08 panel of a Avatar version of the West Side Story in two minutes. It's really good! youtube.com/watch?v=LDIB1FUr0wk
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