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Post by brilliantlygreen on Jun 4, 2007 1:08:00 GMT -5
I think that was before he even started liking her I'm pretty sure he's loved her since the beginning.
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Power
Fire Lord Zuko
Kataangian Elite. Air/Water Warrior
Toph and Sokka. Every day they get closer to each other.
Posts: 8,513
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Post by Power on Jun 4, 2007 1:08:44 GMT -5
I dont see how love for Katara had something to do with the hiding of the message. Im confused.
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Youkai-Slayer
Wolf Sokka
Patron Goddess and Ambassador of Zutara
I would rather support what SHOULD have happened than what DID happen. ~Yiceman
Posts: 2,846
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Post by Youkai-Slayer on Jun 4, 2007 1:08:56 GMT -5
You say this but love for Katara has cause him to do selfish things. That is where it can be a flaw. Do you not remember how he hid the scroll bearing the location of Hakoda because he feared she and Sokka would leave him? the fear of losing his friends made him do it, not his love for Katara. I think that was before he even started liking her Nope. That was after the Fortuneteller episode where his crush is fully admitted.
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Post by mindbender18 on Jun 4, 2007 1:11:29 GMT -5
I think that was before he even started liking her I'm pretty sure he's loved her since the beginning. ......true, but i don't think his love for her was as strong back then as it is now
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clearsunrise
Pupil Sokka
Waterbending Admiral of the Zutarian Army
Posts: 5,462
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Post by clearsunrise on Jun 4, 2007 1:12:06 GMT -5
i think all the characters have learned from their mistakes actually. in the end zuko cared more about that crew member who almost fell then catching aang. and in the end aang told the truth. the same can be said about any of the characters. they just don't all show it in the same way.
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Post by Amira on Jun 4, 2007 1:14:11 GMT -5
But if I recall correctly Aang said something along the lines of: "I can't believe they would leave me." He was clearly upset for several scenes.
Actually, I was a bit annoyed with Sokka and Katara. I know seeing Bato was great and their excitement was understandable, but they ignored Aang and didn't include him in their talk in the tent and Sokka was rude to him by cutting him off when he asked about a story Bato had mentioned. What made me annoyed is they know and understand (especially Katara) how Aang felt with being alone and abandoned given his history with the loss of the air nomads.
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Youkai-Slayer
Wolf Sokka
Patron Goddess and Ambassador of Zutara
I would rather support what SHOULD have happened than what DID happen. ~Yiceman
Posts: 2,846
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Post by Youkai-Slayer on Jun 4, 2007 1:16:52 GMT -5
No one said Aang was perfect. It's obvious that he isn't. He has just as many issues as any other character, if not more. But his love for Katara is not a flaw. Love is never a flaw. The only time his love for Katara got in the way was when he was learning to master the avatar state. And there's nothing wrong with not wanting to let her go. He's not going to be excited about the fact that he can't feel an attachment to her. He even said, "How is my attachment to her a bad thing? Three chakras ago that was a good thing!" It was hard for him to grasp the fact that someone he had grown so close to was now in the way of his power. hmm, shoving aside someone you love to gain power....who does that sound like to you? Zuko didn't shove someone aside to gain power. Did you see him sitting on the Earth King's throne? He shoved someone he loved aside for the potential love of someone else. His love for his father is a flaw of his because Ozai is never going to feel anything for him and frankly, having Ozai approve of your actions is not worth a hill of beans seeing as how he is evil.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 1:18:36 GMT -5
hmm, shoving aside someone you love to gain power....who does that sound like to you? Zuko didn't shove someone aside to gain power. Did you see him sitting on the Earth King's throne? He shoved someone he loved aside for the potential love of someone else. His love for his father is a flaw of his because Ozai is never going to feel anything for him and frankly, having Ozai approve of your actions is not worth a hill of beans seeing as how he is evil. I wasn't talking about Zuko, I was talking about evil people in general.(No I don't think Zuko is evil) Only a really twisted person would toss someone they love aside for power.
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Post by Amira on Jun 4, 2007 1:19:04 GMT -5
I get the feeling Ozai was the product of an inattentive and not-too-loving father. Azulon didn't seem to like him in comparison to Iroh, defending Iroh's birthright despite the loss of Lu Ten. So I'm wondering if history is repeating itself and Iroh is trying to prevent that by letting Zuko know repeatedly that someone does love him and is proud of him and what he can do when he puts his mind to it.
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Youkai-Slayer
Wolf Sokka
Patron Goddess and Ambassador of Zutara
I would rather support what SHOULD have happened than what DID happen. ~Yiceman
Posts: 2,846
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Post by Youkai-Slayer on Jun 4, 2007 1:23:29 GMT -5
I get the feeling Ozai was the product of an inattentive and not-too-loving father. Azulon didn't seem to like him in comparison to Iroh, defending Iroh's birthright despite the loss of Lu Ten. SO I'm wondering if history is repeating itself. I think his mother probably preferred Iroh too if she was around for his childhood. He seems to be the golden child while Ozai wasn't.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 2:02:30 GMT -5
Alright, time to get to my ultimate point.
Aang chose love over personal perfection, this is not in any way, shape for form, selfish. It is likely the most selfless thing he's ever done. "I know defeating the Fire Lord will be hard without the Avatar State, but if the easy road means losing Katara, I'll take the hard way." He was making his job harder for someone he loved. You can call this many things, but selfish isn't one of them.
In the cave when they were surrounded by Dai Li, Aang made another hard choice, giving Katara up to save her. "I don't want to give her up, but if it means she gets out alive, I'll do it." Then as he was trying to go for perfection to save Katara, he gets a bolt of lightning in the back.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jun 4, 2007 4:00:56 GMT -5
^You seem to have forgotten everything we talked about in the past, friend.
REMEMBER! Aang was not trying to become all powerful! He was trying to gain control of something INSIDE of him that was potentially destructive! If he doesn't master this thing, he is a danger to himself and everyone around him. Aang did not make a conscious choice in that instance. He didn't "choose" to just put off mastering the AS because Katara was in a life threatening situation. He saw a vision of her in danger, I vision that I assert was entirely an illusion, and rushed away just on the FEAR that she was in danger.
The point of it is not that Aang is willing to sacrifice his own strength to save her life; the point of it is that he is willing to endanger himself and those around him, and damage his chance to protect the world, due to his extreme attatchment.
So I don't care if you think that the Guru's teachings = the suck, because if that's the only way he can gain control of this part of himself, prevent it from being unleashed every time he gets emotional, then I'd say it's worth it.
Another thing: you references Star Wars again a few pages back. I think I've told you this before but....
Luke didn't do jack to save the universe. He didn't help at all, in the end. Luke leaving Yoda and going to save Leia did nothing: she escaped herself.
Him learning who Vader was did nothing; the guy and the Emperor would have died when Han and the rebellion blew up the Death Star anyway.
But what if Luke HAD stayed with Yoda? Become a full fledged Jedi? He would have been a lot more help, methinks.
Because that's what it takes. If you want the control, the strength, the power, you have to be willing to pay the consequences. There is no "better way" to be a Jedi in this case; sure it's a hard life, but it's the ONLY way to truly be one.
Same goes for the Avatar. Because I personally feel that the idea of Aang finding some wild, alternative way to master the Avatar State is, as my inventive friend Chris would say, "the downz," (stupid), let us make this wild, insane assumption that the chakra process is indeed the ONLY WAY to do this. You argue that no one should have to do this? Well, good news; only one person has to. That's unfair! So what? If there's no other way, that's the way things are, neh? It's only as unfair as you make it out to be.
Considering that we've seen numerous examples of past Avatars who have mastered the AS, we can see that doing so *gasp* does not leave you as an emotionless enlightened being. Quite the contrary. In fact, ironically the only really unhappy Avatar we've seen is the one who displayed the biggest lack of self control and restraint, Kuruk.
So, yes, as a young person Aang will make mistakes. Does that mean we can accept those mistakes and go "Eh, he's just a kid, whatever"? No. I think, considering his position, Aang has to learn from these mistakes. Because that's the major difference between Zuko and Aang. Zuko's mistakes only seem to damage himself. Aang's mistakes, however, risk the entire world.
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Post by frozenwind141 on Jun 4, 2007 7:06:18 GMT -5
So, yes, as a young person Aang will make mistakes. Does that mean we can accept those mistakes and go "Eh, he's just a kid, whatever"? No. I think, considering his position, Aang has to learn from these mistakes. Because that's the major difference between Zuko and Aang. Zuko's mistakes only seem to damage himself. Aang's mistakes, however, risk the entire world. Sorry that I'm not answering all your points but the whole Avatar State debate bores the hell out of me now. I will say this, Zuko's mistakes do not just damage himself. Because he choose "Power" instead of "Love" which was his uncle, he ended up being one of the main factors in Aang getting a giant hole in his back. This "mistake" obviously affects the entire world cause Aang is the one that is going to be saving it. So actually Zuko's mistakes do have a pretty massive impact.
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Post by Kohana on Jun 4, 2007 9:28:51 GMT -5
So, yes, as a young person Aang will make mistakes. Does that mean we can accept those mistakes and go "Eh, he's just a kid, whatever"? No. I think, considering his position, Aang has to learn from these mistakes. Because that's the major difference between Zuko and Aang. Zuko's mistakes only seem to damage himself. Aang's mistakes, however, risk the entire world. Sorry that I'm not answering all your points but the whole Avatar State debate bores the hell out of me now. I will say this, Zuko's mistakes do not just damage himself. Because he choose "Power" instead of "Love" which was his uncle, he ended up being one of the main factors in Aang getting a giant hole in his back. This "mistake" obviously affects the entire world cause Aang is the one that is going to be saving it. So actually Zuko's mistakes do have a pretty massive impact. That is true. But the difference is, according to me though, is that Aang's decision directly affect the entire world, he knows/realises that whatever he does, he must do for the sake of the world and peace. Zuko doesn't have such a responsibility as Aang, and didn't realise his choice would lead to nearly Aang's death. We know Zuko is not a killer like Azula, he wanted to "capture" the Avatar. Not that I'm really defending Zuko here, because he made a terrible decision obviously. He chose "love of his father" over "The Good Side" and "Uncle's love". But the fact of the matter is that "love of his father" was his goal and purpose since the very beginning of the show and he chose that path once more in CoD. And Aang's goal is saving the world and stop the war, but he didn't choose that path; he choose Katara over gaining control of the Avatar State, making him, and I'm sorry to say this, a bit selfish. (Zuko was selfish too, of course, but his choice doesn't really affect the fate of the world directly like Aang's.) Pff... I hope I made some sense, because I probably didn't.
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
Posts: 5,061
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Post by Ana on Jun 4, 2007 12:17:55 GMT -5
Indeed. That’s why I think people wouldn’t care as much about Zutara (or the pairing of Katara and Zuko probably wouldn't even be given a name) if others weren’t opposed to it. IMO, the reason the ship war are so heated is because people like to get their way. That’s not the reason people think Kataang is close to canon. The actual reason is because Kataang has tons development (so much that’s in the DNA of the show) and Katara is at least being set up to have more than friendly feelings for Aang. Perhaps but the wirters seem to think Zuko's interest in Mai will go farther so I would hardly say Maiko is filled with delusion. I really don’t think it’s correct to say Aang is entirely focused on Katara. Yes, Aang must learn to "let his attachments flow down the creek" but he does love his others and focuses on saving the world. I don’t see Aang’s love for Katara weakness, obviously, but he does need to realize he can’t be there for Katara all the time and should "let her go" when needed. I agree. Zutarains seem to think it means Zuko and Katara will eventually make out and non-Zutarains seem to think Zuko’s choice erased it at all and killed the ship I think it was just a time of understanding and it’ll probably shape Zuko and Katara’s interactions later on (Zuko’s choice will too).
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