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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 13:40:53 GMT -5
Yiceman, I never agreed that he needed to master the Avatar State so he could use it's power, I said he needed to get it under control so he didn't enter it on accident and hurt himself and those around him.
There is a reason that the heroes in these stories usually forsake the ultimate power in these stories, because it usually means being less human. Now you may like the idea of someone sacrificing their humanity to gain that power and defeat the bad guy, but in the end those that do that end up bad guys themselves. Also, most people who enjoy the heroes journey don't want the hero to be perfect because perfection makes the hero less understandable.
Seriously, the bad guys are the ones that give up humanity for ultimate power, and it usually ends up biting them in the back side when someone strong enough without giving up their humanity comes along.
Oh, and Vader and the Emperor could have gotten off the Death Star when they found out the shield dropped.
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Post by luthien on Jun 4, 2007 13:52:11 GMT -5
OT here (I apologize), but I would like to see Aang master the Avatar State. The others before him have done so, why shouldn't he? The Avatar State is more than a super power-up - it is who he is, and was even before he was born. It's Yangchen, Kuruk, Roku - it's the spirit of the earth. And I don't see that as a bad thing.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 14:03:48 GMT -5
OT here (I apologize), but I would like to see Aang master the Avatar State. The others before him have done so, why shouldn't he? The Avatar State is more than a super power-up - it is who he is, and was even before he was born. It's Yangchen, Kuruk, Roku - it's the spirit of the earth. And I don't see that as a bad thing. Out of 40 episodes, only the last two have talked about actually mastering the Avatar State, and it is important to find a way to not enter it on instinct. However Roku, as you so mentioned, was working on mastering the Avatar State for months, and the only thing that seemed to be blocking his true mastery of it was thoughts of food. No one is going to tell me that dinner was his only earthly attachment. I hope I don't insult anyone by saying this, but it seems the only people who want Aang to give up Katara for the Avatar State are Zutara shippers, or those that think Zutara would be a more interesting pairing. I know Kataang bores some of you, or rubs some of you the wrong way, or just just find Zutara more interesting, but heroes don't give up their humanity to master themselves and achieve perfection. Heroes end up taking the hard road, because in the end finding a way to triumph over evil without giving up love and happiness is what the Hero's Journey is about.
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Post by luthien on Jun 4, 2007 14:23:24 GMT -5
The thing is - I don't think Aang has to give up anything to master the Avatar State - at least, not in the way he thinks. He thinks it means giving up someone, which is *not* what Pathik said. Pathik never specifically told Aang he had to give up his loved ones. He said he had to let go of his earthly attachments - and there is a difference.
I know a lot of people are arguing that Pathik is totally off his rocker on this count, and that he's dead-wrong and full of hot air. But I don't think he is. Aang misinterpreted it - he tells Pathik, "Three chakras ago that was a good thing!" Aha, but therein lies the issue. Three chakras ago Pathik said love was a good thing, not attachment.
I think Pathik means attachment in its negative sense, which we have seen Aang display more than once (and he ain't the only one, Zuko does it too with his dad). Aang loving someone isn't a problem. But the jealousy we start to see manifest in him (in "Lake Laogai," "The Crossroads of Destiny") is an Aang we haven't seen before, and is counter to Aang's true nature. And that *can* get in the way of his overriding mission - which is, to save the world. But I think he just took Pathik's words at face value and then zipped off, leaving Pathik in the dust (which I still believe was very wrong).
Sure, Iroh says love is better than perfection and power (this too applies to Zuko, who should just accept his uncle's love rather than submit to Ozai's rigid view of perfection). But is the Avatar really perfection? The Avatar State is just that - a state, a temporary way of being. Outside that, Aang's still Aang - a bouncy, 12 year old kid who's doing the best he can to grow up. There's nothing saying mastering the Avatar State will take that away.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 15:06:45 GMT -5
The thing is - I don't think Aang has to give up anything to master the Avatar State - at least, not in the way he thinks. He thinks it means giving up someone, which is *not* what Pathik said. Pathik never specifically told Aang he had to give up his loved ones. He said he had to let go of his earthly attachments - and there is a difference. I know a lot of people are arguing that Pathik is totally off his rocker on this count, and that he's dead-wrong and full of hot air. But I don't think he is. Aang misinterpreted it - he tells Pathik, "Three chakras ago that was a good thing!" Aha, but therein lies the issue. Three chakras ago Pathik said love was a good thing, not attachment. I think Pathik means attachment in its negative sense, which we have seen Aang display more than once (and he ain't the only one, Zuko does it too with his dad). Aang loving someone isn't a problem. But the jealousy we start to see manifest in him (in "Lake Laogai," "The Crossroads of Destiny") is an Aang we haven't seen before, and is counter to Aang's true nature. And that *can* get in the way of his overriding mission - which is, to save the world. But I think he just took Pathik's words at face value and then zipped off, leaving Pathik in the dust (which I still believe was very wrong). Sure, Iroh says love is better than perfection and power (this too applies to Zuko, who should just accept his uncle's love rather than submit to Ozai's rigid view of perfection). But is the Avatar really perfection? The Avatar State is just that - a state, a temporary way of being. Outside that, Aang's still Aang - a bouncy, 12 year old kid who's doing the best he can to grow up. There's nothing saying mastering the Avatar State will take that away. I have my reasons for thinking that Pathik was suggesting that Aang give up those things. He's following the Air Nomad way of thinking, which was "The Fire Nation threatening to take over the world isn't our problem....wait, it's our turn to raise the Avatar....crap, the Fire Nation is going to come after him. That means we'll have to fight....wait, no we won't, we'll just push the Avatar to train harder now! Hmm...the Avatar is still a kid...oh well, I'm sure a 12 year old will understand he has to give up everything he loves to protect us...er...the world." It was cowardly and selfish of them to force Aang to train his backside off and not have any fun while they continued on with their happy life in the clouds. So yeah, I think Pathik was suggesting Aang give up humanity, just like the monks expected him to.
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Post by luthien on Jun 4, 2007 15:16:49 GMT -5
I still believe Aang can have the best of both worlds. And really, the suggestion about Aang acting "more adult" really only came from one Air Nomad, with the other "elders" just kind of backing him up because they didn't want to rock the boat. But we know that Gyatso was *not* going to allow Aang to go to the Eastern Air Temple. I don't see the entire Air Nomad philosophy that way - just that small group. And while it was tough on Aang to learn who he was at 12 (and Gyatso thought it was a mistake), what else were they to do? Sozin's Comet came that very same year, and with them sitting right on top of the Avatar, who could have had an impact, would it really be right of them to withhold that information with such a huge threat coming?
What did Pathik ever say about Aang giving up his humanity? He just said that to properly enter the Avatar State, one had to give up earthly attachments. Remember, attachment, not humanity or love. Negative attachment, the kind that can hold you back. Attachment isn't always a good thing. This is actually a very Eastern way of thinking, and Buddhists, while enlightened, are not robots. They enjoy life and the world around them a great deal, and there is room for love.
And in "Escape From the Spirit World," we see Yangchen tell Aang living among people and being human is what the Avatar needs to do. So Avatar State does not equal no humanity. The Avatar State is a tool for which a person can help *all* humanity. What greater love is there than helping the world? And Yangchen herself seems to have mastered the Avatar State - we see her enter it in "The Avatar State" without a threat to her or a stressful situation, she does it on command - and she certainly hasn't lost *her* humanity.
I still think Aang misinterpreted what the Guru said, and I hope he'll go back and this time, do it up right.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 15:36:11 GMT -5
I still believe Aang can have the best of both worlds. And really, the suggestion about Aang acting "more adult" really only came from one Air Nomad, with the other "elders" just kind of backing him up because they didn't want to rock the boat. But we know that Gyatso was *not* going to allow Aang to go to the Eastern Air Temple. I don't see the entire Air Nomad philosophy that way - just that small group. And while it was tough on Aang to learn who he was at 12 (and Gyatso thought it was a mistake), what else were they to do? Sozin's Comet came that very same year, and with them sitting right on top of the Avatar, who could have had an impact, would it really be right of them to withhold that information with such a huge threat coming? What did Pathik ever say about Aang giving up his humanity? He just said that to properly enter the Avatar State, one had to give up earthly attachments. Remember, attachment, not humanity or love. Negative attachment, the kind that can hold you back. Attachment isn't always a good thing. This is actually a very Eastern way of thinking, and Buddhists, while enlightened, are not robots. They enjoy life and the world around them a great deal, and there is room for love. And in "Escape From the Spirit World," we see Yangchen tell Aang living among people and being human is what the Avatar needs to do. So Avatar State does not equal no humanity. The Avatar State is a tool for which a person can help *all* humanity. What greater love is there than helping the world? And Yangchen herself seems to have mastered the Avatar State - we see her enter it in "The Avatar State" without a threat to her or a stressful situation, she does it on command - and she certainly hasn't lost *her* humanity. I still think Aang misinterpreted what the Guru said, and I hope he'll go back and this time, do it up right. Hey, I hope I'm wrong and you're right, I really do. I agree Aang should be able to eventually master himself and have love and happiness. If he did misunderstand the Guru, then he still did the right thing based on what he thought, though. There is more than one way to gain power. There is the easy way, where you give up humanity and all the things you loved, having no regret about the people you hurt and lives you destroy to achieve your goal. Aang was thinking this was thinking the Guru suggest he do. Aang could be wrong, but it's what he was thinking. Then their's the hard way, where you give up blood, sweat, and tears, put your nose to the grindstone and work your butt off. This way hurts, and isn't always the best looking road, but gaining power this way means you keep sight of what is important in life. Friends, Family, love, and people in general, plus you still get to enjoy live and have fun on the way. This is what Aang has been doing from the moment he learned he was on a time table, and the way I want to see him gain the power he needs to save the world.
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Post by luthien on Jun 4, 2007 15:51:16 GMT -5
I know - still, I think Pathik was right. I mean, he was dead-on with everything else, so why are people so willing to believe he's dead wrong with Chakra 7? His meditation with Aang did such good things for him - allowing him to dump his fear, grief, regrets, shame. Pathik did wonderful things for Aang, and I see him letting go of attachment as a good thing too. What better gift is there for Aang that something not tainted by jealously? And no one can say him running off to Katara was a good thing - look where it got him. Lying to his friends, a charred hole in his back, the last great defense against the Fire Nation defeated, a psychotic Firebender on the Earth Kingdom throne. These things are not good! If perhaps he had waited and finished opening the chakras, he would have had the confidence and strength to face Azula full-force and defend Ba Sing Se. As it was, he held off on doing what he was supposed to do to the point where it was the only thing he *could* do, and since he wasn't prepared he was left set up for a killing blow from Azula. And even though Katara was in danger, she's a big girl and can handle herself - for Pete's sake, she's the world's only female fighting-trained Waterbending master! This is where Aang's attachment bit him in the tail - sometimes he thinks *only* of Katara, above other people who need his help just as much. You think Toph wouldn't have appreciated an assist in getting away from Xin Fu and Master Yu (though granted, he would have been in the same situation had he left for that reason, too)? But he didn't see her, his friend, because he's only focused on Katara (note when the Guru talked about love he didn't see anyone else either, just Katara - though Sokka, Momo, Appa, and Toph love him too). Aang at this point is too single-mindedly focused on Katara, to the detriment of others - and maybe even on the whole world. He needs to learn how to balance these things. Isn't that what his life is all about - balance? Still think the Guru has more of a role to play down the line.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 15:57:29 GMT -5
I know - still, I think Pathik was right. I mean, he was dead-on with everything else, so why are people so willing to believe he's dead wrong with Chakra 7? His meditation with Aang did such good things for him - allowing him to dump his fear, grief, regrets, shame. Pathik did wonderful things for Aang, and I see him letting go of attachment as a good thing too. What better gift is there for Aang that something not tainted by jealously? And no one can say him running off to Katara was a good thing - look where it got him. Lying to his friends, a charred hole in his back, the last great defense against the Fire Nation defeated, a psychotic Firebender on the Earth Kingdom throne. These things are not good! If perhaps he had waited and finished opening the chakras, he would have had the confidence and strength to face Azula full-force and defend Ba Sing Se. As it was, he held off on doing what he was supposed to do to the point where it was the only thing he *could* do, and since he wasn't prepared he was left set up for a killing blow from Azula. And even though Katara was in danger, she's a big girl and can handle herself - for Pete's sake, she's the world's only female fighting-trained Waterbending master! This is where Aang's attachment bit him in the tail - sometimes he thinks *only* of Katara, above other people who need his help just as much. You think Toph wouldn't have appreciated an assist in getting away from Xin Fu and Master Yu (though granted, he would have been in the same situation had he left for that reason, too)? But he didn't see her, his friend, because he's only focused on Katara (note when the Guru talked about love he didn't see anyone else either, just Katara - though Sokka, Momo, Appa, and Toph love him too). Aang at this point is too single-mindedly focused on Katara, to the detriment of others - and maybe even on the whole world. He needs to learn how to balance these things. Isn't that what his life is all about - balance? Still think the Guru has more of a role to play down the line. Hey, of course he needs to not think about Katara to the detriment of the world, but in this case he was afraid for her life, and he didn't know(no one could have known either) going to save her was going to end badly. What happened happened, now he needs to move on, learn from what ever mistakes he's made and get back to that hard work I was talking about.
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Post by taiyo *on limited hiatus* on Jun 4, 2007 16:31:23 GMT -5
Pathik kinda warned him the consequence. Not being able to go in the Avatar State and crap. But like you said what happened happened.
I hope Gandhi comes back cuz I still think Aang misunderstood the attachment business.
For Zutara: If Zuko were ever to become friends with the Gaang, could it be possible he can teach Aang not to be so attached and Aang can teach him not to be so distant? What does that question have to do with Zutara? Maybe Katara could get along with him better if they learned more about each other. All they know about each other is the loss of their mom (well Katara's mom).
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 4, 2007 16:48:23 GMT -5
@ psylum - I see the Avatar's job as protecting humanity, not giving it up. There has been much emphasis placed on mastering the AS. But then the Avatar is more than just any human. He/she has to be stronger, more dedicated, and more focused in order to do his job. His job is a very selfless/self-sacrificing one. This is something Aang seems to have already accepted when he decided he would take on the responsibilities of being the Avatar. He regretted running away once and if mastering the AS is something that important, I can't see him running away from it.
On another note, I would only like to see Aang give up on Katara if it's proven she doesn't feel romantically towards him. Otherwise, feeling something so strongly for someone when they don't feel that way is just holding yourself back from other things as well as being painful.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 17:11:45 GMT -5
@ psylum - I see the Avatar's job as protecting humanity, not giving it up. There has been much emphasis placed on mastering the AS. But then the Avatar is more than just any human. He/she has to be stronger, more dedicated, and more focused in order to do his job. His job is a very selfless/self-sacrificing one. This is something Aang seems to have already accepted when he decided he would take on the responsibilities of being the Avatar. He regretted running away once and if mastering the AS is something that important, I can't see him running away from it. On another note, I would only like to see Aang give up on Katara if it's proven she doesn't feel romantically towards him. Otherwise, feeling something so strongly for someone when they don't feel that way is just holding yourself back from other things as well as being painful. And I agree, Aang would never run away from his duties. All he was doing in this case was delaying his mastery of the Avatar State to save someone he cared about, he didn't know he'd end up extra crispy in the process. It's been shown that it can take months to master the Avatar state, and he was at it for a couple days at the most. I also agree that if Katara didn't love him then he'd just need to move on, just like with anyone. There is however plenty of evidence to suggest that she does, it's not a "I absolutely love Aang and want to be with him the rest of my life" confession, but it's still there.
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Post by luthien on Jun 4, 2007 17:58:59 GMT -5
Oh she definitely loves him, there's no question about it and there never has been. It's just the form of love that she has is what Mike and Bryan have enjoyed toying around with.
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Post by psylum on Jun 4, 2007 18:06:27 GMT -5
Oh she definitely loves him, there's no question about it and there never has been. It's just the form of love that she has is what Mike and Bryan have enjoyed toying around with. You just know they enjoy seeing all the down right cracked theories a select few extremely nutty fans come up with.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 4, 2007 18:21:56 GMT -5
Whatever happens will happen, right? With his injury, it may be impossible for Aang to master the AS, at least in time before the comet. I haven't been on here in a while. I think I might have lost some enthusiasm for lack of episodes and interesting info, and we can only discuss the same things so many times. :/
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