Melis
Long Feng
hay baby wanna get away on my bison?
Posts: 3,293
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Post by Melis on Jun 17, 2007 1:49:10 GMT -5
I'm sure many Fire Nation soldiers died while he was merged with Tui though... ...I completely forgot about that. I do agree with you though, some Fire Nation soldiers might have died while they were merged. Exactly. It's completely different. Azula doesn't even really care as long as it benefits her needs, IMO. She wouldn't be sloppy about it, that's for sure, but she probably would hold no regrets or any remorse for the victims.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 17, 2007 2:36:43 GMT -5
Out of courtesy for those with slower connections ( myself included ), I'm omitting the images from the quotations, but will still respond to them. I'm sorry, I should have asked for just Ozai, I know about Ty Lee and Mai. It's all right. No harm done. Azula sought Ty Lee with one thing in mind: bringing the girl into her hurting-party. To do this, she would first appear cordial and thoughtful. If Azula had shoved her away, or chose not to reciprocate the hug, Ty Lee would've known right then and there that something was amiss, which would be self-defeating. When cordiality failed, she resorted to more dramatic measures, and Ty Lee wasn't about to turn her down after the veiled threats made during the performance. You could look at it like that. I personally think he was reflecting on his wife and how much he missed her already. Azula didn't do anything like that. She brought up her mother to tease Zuko; how cruel. Exactly, we did see what Zuko saw. We saw the events that stuck out most to him as a child, that had the most importance. of course those events are going to include what made him come to the conclusion that "azula always lies." It was of Zuko's experiences, that shaped him. Not her. It was Zuko's experiences with her that shaped him. They were chiefly in the negative. If Azula was such a fantastic sister, he never would've come up with such a mantra. Like I said, it was memories of events that shaped him and caused him to think the way he does about certain people and certain things. Which usually is the negative aspects of a person And just because it showed it once, doesn't mean it happened once. Clearly if they were playing there, then they had to have played more as children, and it was simply showing that they do. i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/msjimmy/180.jpgHere she is dragging him off to join her. they're doing stuff together. Hn... and Zuko's "I don't want to play with you!" was misplaced, then? He said that, knowing full-well what "playtime" with Azula resulted in. He seemed adverse to it more than anything, opting to avoid her more than interact with her. I can't help but notice the look on Zuko's face as she's dragging him. "Oh no, not again...!!" I think the only fault that she would have in her mother's disappeance is knowing why she disappeared. Or after their little talk, she may have told Ursa what she told Zuko, and Ursa would have then taken it into her own hands. That would have been how Azula would be responsible and know more than Zuko. Notice she doesn't even look at Zuko when she says "no one knows" to answer his question of where their mother is. i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/msjimmy/ZukoAlone001_0001.jpgMaybe. Your reasoning makes sense, but I was talking about years later. IIRC, she didn't look at Zuko when she spoke because she was too busy messing around with the knife she suspiciously stole from him. Now that is from Zuko's point of view, and his narritive. It's his dream. He may think Azula knows more than she has let on, but it's still his dream. From his point of view. His dream was prophetic, though. In said dream, he was presented with choices by the Blue Dragon ( Azula ) and Red Dragon ( Iroh ). Two episodes later, there he is, torn between the two. It was the starkest kind of foreshadowing. I'm not penpointing killing Aang. I'm saying there has been others who have tried to kill. And who have. I mean, Zhao did kill the moon spirit. Is Aang a murderer? His avatar state killed Zhao. Azula killed Aang when he was going into his Avatar state. Clearly she's smart enough to know that if he gets into that state, they don't stand a chance. I see. And, toward the end, Zhao was maniacal, much like Azula. Melis explained the situation with Aang and the Avatar State, so I'll second her. But was the nasty little smile she gave necessary? She enjoyed killing him. She has the Fire Nation killer-instinct she adores so much about the Dai Li. And Ozai is still Zuko's father. He has had influence on him. In that Zuko thinks his honor and throne are more important at times. Azula thinks this more so, because she has more influence from her father. Also she's still in that position of power. And much of Zuko's personality is shaped by Iroh, that's for sure. He's been gone with Zuko for two years. We've never seen Azula and Iroh interact but a few times, and clearly she does not have good relations with him. Most of her influence comes from her father, and just because we haven't seen anything of Ursa, doesn't mean there isn't any there. Zuko's influence has a lot to do with Iroh, and Ursa, but credit also goes to Iroh for keeping that in him. Absolutely right about Zuko. I hesitate to agree about Azula. As a reiteration, Ursa embodied goodness. Azula lacks any semblance of goodness, hence the disconnect I'm proposing. After nine episodes, wouldn't we have seen some of that by now? As the conqueror of Ba Sing Se, her personality isn't about to improve -- it's only going to get worse. Any chance of seeing Ursa-like traits in Azula has passed. At that time, she was pointing out how their father would be a better ruler. She was just degrading Iroh, but saying how their father was a better choice. It's not all resentment. Do you not agree that at least some of what she said was thoughtless? Horrible, even? Her opinion in and of itself could be excused, but her expression of said opinion was snarky and ill-mannered. But I did say it's not all resentment. She seemed quite irritated with her mother at times. So Azula must have more growing up to do, then. "Sympathetic" when the situation calls for it. She's the most manipulative character to date. She has the ability to take on any emotion and act on it with what appears to be total sincerity: the mark of a sociopath. I believe Azula has the ability to be joyous... she was when she killed Aang. In situations like that... yeah... she's joyous. Here they are when they are told Iroh's son died. Does she look happy to you? From what I can tell, she has a blank expression on her face. Like she didn't really care either way about his death.
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LiveInThaskyE
The Avatars
The Honorary Zutarian
Black God
Posts: 12,182
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Post by LiveInThaskyE on Jun 17, 2007 3:02:42 GMT -5
Azula is Azula for a reason,there is no redemption for her.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jun 17, 2007 3:19:37 GMT -5
Redeeming her character would just be a bad move by the writers.
They would be copying themselves. Zuko is the redeemed Fire Nation royal; what possible point is there to duplicate this, especially when doing so would require such a stretch and personality overhaul?
They would ruin Azula's character. What makes per popular IS how evil she is. People love her because of her maliciousness (or they fabricate a character that they WISH Azula would be and love that). Face it: Azula has NOTHING without her evilness. Her acting genuine and nice is so out of place that it threatens to destroy the space-time continium.
It would serve no purose. Zuko is already the main evidence of redemption on the show.
It would basically mess up Zuko's storyline; I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that, in the end, Zuko will have to defeat Azula just like Aang will have to beat the Fire Lord.
It's just a bad, bad idea. No good could come of it. Maybe some folks could just forget the things she's done, but I don't see how murdering Aang could be forgotten.
Just look at Long Feng...I'm a fan of his, and I actually see his point of view. I don't think he's really a vile person. I think he's just a patriot who felt like he was the only one who could do the job right, so he desired to keep himself in power. Pretty much all for the safety of the state.
Do I think he'll be redeemed? No. Why? He brain-washed people and killed Jet. Honestly, I kind of envisioned him joining up with the Earth King or Bumi in the third season and being part of the Earth Kingdom's rebellion against the Fire Nation. Why? Because he doesn't want to see Ba Sing Se in the hands of the enemy. Never did. But after this? He'll probably show signs of getting ready to seize control back away from the King again before he's killed or imprisoned. He's tasted power, and it's addictive.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 17, 2007 12:48:39 GMT -5
General Zoisaito, your post pwns. You have a very good way of presenting your agument. I admire that about you. Well, thanks, grandmaster! You stand up for what you believe in, so I owe you due respect as well. You understand that she is the princess of the fire nation, right? She could have have easily forced them to joing her group and there would be nothing she could do about it. It was simply because of their friendship that she shown kindness. If it was just another powerful fighter do you honestly think that Azula would have shown that sort of kindness? I don't. She simply would have forced him/her to go with her. Azula doesn't have to go through all that trouble just to get a someone on her team. It just isn't necessary, and I don't think Azula would go through such an unnecessary process when she doesn't have to. It just isn't very Azula like. When she went to visit Mai she didn't need to show the kindness she did. Mai exepted the mission without a second thought! Again, there was no reason for her to even try to trick Mai. Azula has a friendship with with these two girls...No doubt about it. You can see it from the way she treats them. Letting them sit on thrones and stuff. I don't see any of normal fighters doing that, only her friends. I seem to recall this argument from another thread. Ah, but Azula did force Ty Lee to go with her -- using the most underhanded method possible, I might add. Coercion under threat of bodily harm. You could even call it a form of terrorism. A true friend doesn't do that. A true friend would've respected Ty Lee's wishes, not set the safety-net ablaze and released all the dangerous animals should she fall. Mai joined because she was bored. Not very compelling. She'd been complaining endlessly about her situation the day before. Azula drops by -- here's a chance to get out of this insufferable pit of despair known as Omashu! Ty Lee and Mai are the daughters of noblemen. Azula respects their rank in society and allots them special privileges. Mai's father even wears a crown in his topknot, so it stands to reason he has a throne of his own. It's merely an acknowledgment of their stature on Azula's part. Personaly, I think it's because Zuko just didn't want to do cartwheels, plus he didn't seem to like girls very much. Seeing as how we seen Azula and Zuko play together like normal kids, I would say that Zuko doesn't mind playing with Azula. You make it sound like playing with Azula=sitting on a chair and letting her beat you on the head with a stick. That just isn't true. Azula's behavior degrades throughout the flashback. She starts off somewhat decently -- yet, even in the beginning, she displays a level of cruelty. By the end of the presentation, she's a big jerk. I still think their game of Tag was an isolated incident, judging by the rest of her interactions with Zuko. The ratio of nastiness-to-kindness is staggering. He didn't want to go with her, if you recall. "What are you doing?!" To which Azula promptly hushed him. The whole time, he gave off an aura of uncomfortableness. Do you think he looks happy in that picture? Hmm....I guess, but I discont what MJ is saying. You discount it, or you agree with her? It wan't Azula...Nothing can change that. It doesn't matter what kinda forshadowing was in that dream. Thats the thing, though. We don't know it's forshadowing until it happens. The dragon had her voice and temperament. It was her in different physical form -- granted, a fever-induced representation, but the voice is what really sold me. Zuko's mind projected her as a blue dragon. Why? You'd have to ask the creators. Possibly because her personality matches to a 'T that of the Dragon in Chinese Astrology. If you don't think the dragon was Azula, who/what was it? And why utilize her voice in a being that wasn't meant to represent her? I originally brought up the dream because Zuko was shown to have incite through his visions. The tug-of-war between the dragons ( Azula and Iroh ) did come to pass, so it stands to reason that the other parts of the dream hold truth. Which brings me back to my original point: Ursa. She knows something about their mother, and, judging by her malicious tone, it's nothing good. She either did something with her own two hands, or holds no sympathy for Ursa's fate either way. A person who cares nothing for her mother CAN'T be redeemed! Umm...I don't see how you can say that any type of Ursa like traits have passed. There is so much stuff we havn't seen yet when it comes to Azula. The show is not about to sit still and have all the charaters act the exact same as they did in season 2. There will be charater development for all the charaters. To say that we won't see any more to Azula the what we have seen in season 2 is just crazy. None of the charaters will just stop all growth and stay the same. This includes Azula as well. But think about the current trend of the story, grandmaster. What possible reason does Azula have to display such characteristics? She just conquered the unconquerable and is about to return home a war-hero. She likely has her eye on the Fire Lord's throne. All of a sudden, she'll start displaying Ursa's traits? That makes absolutely no sense to me. For the record, let's go over what those are: kindness, regard for others, sympathy, love of family, no real desire for conquest ( she sided with the Fire Nation, naturally, but never once beat the drums of war -- Azula does with fervor ). All of these personality traits are in direct opposition to Azula. I think Azula will develop... into an even greater enemy. Her evilness with likely intensify. I don't know...Her body language suggest that she did feel somewhat sorry for Lu Ten. I'll grant you it's a blurry screenshot. Her face is unclear, and she appears to have her hands folded over her lap. All the same, Zuko's reaction was visibly crushed; no question. Why wasn't hers? If she were truly sympathetic, we should've been able to see such an expression, no? She might've been stunned, but not truly saddened. A question for the both of you ( and anyone else who wants to jump in )... let's say Azula seeks atonement and becomes a good guy. Where does the current plot go? It dies without resolution. What a way to go. And what if Ozai doesn't turn out to be the malevolent caricature of evil we've all been led to believe? ( More evidence pointing in this direction than for Azula. ) The show won't have a true villain -- and that would be lame; I'm sorry. I wholeheartedly believe Azula is the truest representation of villainy in Avatar. While I respect your arguments and have engaged in this debate several times prior, I have yet to be swayed!
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Post by highelemental on Jun 17, 2007 14:37:57 GMT -5
No she can't be redeemed, she's a sadistic sociopath after all. The real question is can she be made into an intresting antagonist? Because in my opinion she's bland as bland can be.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jun 17, 2007 16:19:54 GMT -5
^So you just want Azula to be a more complex villain? Then that has nothing to do with her being redeemed, does it?
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MsJimmy
Refugee Aang
*drok**punk**highfive*
Posts: 4,630
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Post by MsJimmy on Jun 17, 2007 16:23:52 GMT -5
O.o wow I missed some stuff... well I know it sucks to agrue with a bunch of people, and you're gonna reply to grandmaster, so I just want to say one thing and then I'll shut up.
About her body language when Lu ten died, she's holding her arm with her hand, an expression of being closed off. Or being defensive. She doesn't seem like the type to me to be expressive of her emotions. Rarely have we seen her come out of her normal controlled, calm attitude. The only time we have is when she was angry. Just because she doesn't exprses emotions doesn't mean she doesn't have them. People do that all the time, it depends on what they're comfortable showing.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jun 17, 2007 17:17:35 GMT -5
I think the fact that we have to rely on such ambiguous things such as Azula's body language when she is sitting in the backgroud as evidence of anything that could concievably be a genuine empathetic emotion from her is more proof that the creators have never intentionally included a scene where she is shown being anything but evil.
Because it's not Mike and Bryan who draw those pictures...it's the Korean animators, who I doubt sit in at the writer's conference table very often.
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MsJimmy
Refugee Aang
*drok**punk**highfive*
Posts: 4,630
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Post by MsJimmy on Jun 17, 2007 17:32:21 GMT -5
Lol don't be sorry! You get your points across much better than I do. It's more exciting =)
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Post by theweasleyboys on Jun 17, 2007 20:13:25 GMT -5
It's a natural human response to want to be able to see things much differently than they seem to already be...but honestly, I don't see if Azula would even WANT to be a good girl when she's obviously been rewarded by Ozai and perhaps several others a thousand times over for being bad, ambitious, and perfectionistic. I can also tack on several instances of her wheeling and dealing meeting all her purposes in the end, the gained control over the Dai Li merely one of them. Think this through, if you will--she's probably the best female firebender in her country, she's got Dad behind her 110%, and to top it off, there are no other relatives preceding her in succession order--plus if the Tale of Azula doesn't give away how much she wants to be Fire Lord, the episode of Zuko Alone all by itself does. She has everything to gain from pretending to go along with certain people/events/etc., only to topple them from their pedestals later and therefore get what she wants--a big shiny five-pronged diadem to wear in her hair, five Fire Sages obeying her every command, and so on. What would she have to gain from leaving this all behind and saying 'Whoops, made ya look, I'd rather be a waitress in a noodle restaurant than the boss of everything in my homeland'? Azula thrives when she is in control of others and has power over them. The only instance I can think of that could possibly ever shatter this would be Ozai's discontentment over not having Aang brought to him alive, which would turn to a rage even worse than he had when he was burning Zuko's face once he heard his once-favorite daughter harping about killing the Avatar.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 17, 2007 21:42:24 GMT -5
I don't consider this a attemp to harm Ty Lee. Not only is Ty Lee a friend, but a very useful fighter as well. Azula would have to be an incompetent fool to hurt her, and as we both know Azula is not stupid. Azula would not put her mission in jeopardy like that. She was not about to hurt Ty Lee for real...She just knew what buttons to push to get her to join her team. I find it hard to beleave that Azula would have really hurt Ty Lee. If Azula's such a great friend, why did she get so much satisfaction out of increasing the danger? She was thoroughly enjoying herself. Her actions were thoughtless, and, more strikingly, reckless. Imagine what would've happened if Ty Lee had slipped. And such a thing would've been plausible -- she was sweating bullets. Let's say her palms were sweaty, and she slid from her platform. She would've been burned into disfigurement and trampled to death. Azula had to know that, right? She went ahead and did it, anyway. I know...Thats why it wasn't necessary for Azula to try any tricks on Mai. Also, don't you think that if Azula was as nasty as alot of people make her seem both Mai and Ty Lee would have been a bit suprised by her kindness? I think they all enjoy each others company and thats why they are friends. When Azula and Ty Lee were practicing their flips is a example of this. Azula could have easily had one of her teachers come and work with her, but no...insead she and Ty Lee fliped together. It's because she wanted to pratice with her friends. Mai and Ty Lee clearly enjoy each other's company. Maybe it's just me, but Mai seemed more interested in seeing Ty Lee again than Azula. She inquired about Ty Lee's life in the circus, but never raised the issue with Azula. Azula was her ticket out of the doldrums of Omashu, so she'd be happy to see her in that respect. We've been over the flip-thing before: Azula was terribly rude to Ty Lee when the latter did a better flip. She couldn't stand to be outdone. She had the tendency to turn even the simplest game into a competition. She could've been a real friend and congratulated Ty Lee on her success, but that never happened. Azula probably suggested the game in the first place because she thought she'd be better than Ty Lee, thus proving her superiority. When things didn't turn out as planned, she got mad and shoved her down. I disagree. She didn't see to seem to respect Iroh's rank as heir to the throne, or as a general. Her UNCLE and member of the royal family. So I doubt she would have respect for someone's rank. If she did, then she wouldn't have lashed out on Mai's mom and dad. So it's not because of a acknowledgment of their stature, but because they are her friends. Hell, if that was the case then War Minister Qin would have been on the throne. Plus the way she talked about Azulon...a freakin fire lord! I have never seen Azula show respect to anyones rank. The only people she does show that respect to are Ozai, Mai, Ty Lee, and sometimes Zuko. All people that she likes and has a good relation with. I don't think that just any high ranked person would have Azula's respect, nor do I think she would be giving them special privileges. And shairing her throne with them would be a hell no! I still think they're privileges. She didn't recruit War Minister Qin; he wasn't part of her hunting-party. Azula needs Mai and Ty Lee's skills to complete her mission, so, if that means allowing them to sit on thrones like the nobles they are ( elevating their self-esteem in the process and keeping them loyal to the cause ), so be it. How can you be so sure she likes them, though? She's a user and abuser. The only person she clearly likes is herself. Since she "likes" Zuko so much, I'm guessing she'll make a special throne for him in the Earth King's palace? Should she become Fire Lord, will she feel compelled to commission a throne for him so he can sit beside her? She doesn't seem like a big jerk to me. She seems like one those classic spoiled little sisters. A brat! I don't think she did anyting nasy and downright crazy niether. She seemed like a normal spoiled little girl to me. Now if she was doing stuff like calling in slaves and burning their faces as a form of playing then I might agree with you. Where might the line be drawn between being a brat and being a jerk? Her behavior was uncalled for, and she was reprimanded several times about it, to no avail. Calling in slaves to have their faces burned off isn't about to be implied on this network, so it's irrelevant to the discussion. I wouldn't be surprised if she ever considered it or did it behind closed doors, but we'll never know. It was a typo. What I mean was you both have a equal chance at being right and I just havn't made up my mind yet. It just came out sloppy because my sister kep buggin' me about playing Mario with her...So I had to rush my post. Ah, okay. It's just a dream! Azula was not there, Zuko is not the Firelord, Zuko does not have a Air Bender tatto and he never will. I don't get why you keep saying that was Azula when it wasn't. It was nothing but Zuko's dream...Nothing more. It was not Azula talking...It had nothing to do with Azula. I mean, if we are gonna take that dream as reality, then you might as well say that Zuko will be the fire lord Aang fights. I just can't consider what happend in a dream reality. Zuko's Airbender tattoo was clearly meant to be metaphorical. The verdict's still out on why he dreamt about having one, but no one's ever suggested he would literally get tattooed like an Air Nomad. Similarly, I don't get why you keep saying it wasn't her, or that it wasn't meant to represent her. Please tell me who or what you think the Blue Dragon, who had Azula's personality and voice, was supposed to be. There was no given timeframe for the dream. Zuko wasn't Fire Lord when presented with his choices during The Crossroads Of Destiny, but that part of the dream still came true. Not all of the events of the dream have come to pass. I actually think they'll be broken down -- it doesn't necessarily have to be sequential. Visions don't always work like that. We need to see more of Ursa before we can make an accurate summary of her personality. I personaly think that we have already seen Azula dispay Ursa like traits. I consider Azula's calm, civiliesd, and well-mannered personality to all be traits she inherited from Ursa. She can't get anymore evil. If she did it would ruin her charater. They would have to take away her entire personality and turn her into a souless empty shell of evil that knows nothing but evil. It would turn her into someone like Buu from DBZ. I don't think that will happen...I know that won't happen. There is only one place for her to go and that is up. Either the writers will have her maintane the same level of evilness and cut off all charater development for her, or as I suspect have her develop into a villainish anti-hero (It's different from Zuko). Calm, civilized, and well-mannered? Ozai isn't a raging lunatic. I'm sure he's those things, much like Ursa. Such traits are expected of a Fire Lord and are essential in a favored leader. If he flew off the handle and burned people left-and-right like a psychotic fiend, we'd have heard it by now, and the glimpses we've seen of the Fire Nation would paint a much different picture of him. He was calm, civilized, and well-mannered as a Prince, too. Does he really have such a frightful temper, as some say? During the Agni Kai, cruel as it sounds, he was doing what was expected of him... and he was actually quite calm about the whole thing. He didn't get in Zuko's face and yell at him. Listen to his tone as he speaks: he's pretty collected. Azula greatly resembles Ozai and lacks any similarity to Ursa. If Azula became more evil, it would ruin her character? How so? As the villain, it's only expected of her. Her personality is deplorable, so they wouldn't have to "take away" anything. They'd just be building on what already exists. And I highly doubt she would go around grumbling incoherently and trying to blow up planets like Kid Buu! It's because it's Zuko's episode about his past. Not Azula's. Her body language shows signs of sadness. I hop we get to see Lu ten so I can come up with a better answer because right now I don't know crap about him. Azula might have liked him. His recollection was untainted and unbiased. Azula was shown doing what she did -- bullying and terrorizing him -- because those things actually happened; they weren't a fabrication of Zuko's mind to justify his resentment toward her. It's not as though he made the whole thing up. I still doubt she was grieving, as she went on to trash Iroh about his sadness in the next segment. Either she got over her "sadness" in record time, enough to be a hypocrite about it, or she never cared much to begin with. See thats the thing...I hate shallow, evil dbz type villains. I don't thin any charater in avatar is like that. I rather see good story telling than just evil vs good blah blah blah. Thats why it's importan for me that the bad guys have good in them. Evil brings nothing to the story. Most great villains have it. It's what makes the battle so dramatic because it's A's veiws vs B's. Not because of good vs evil bullcrap. I hoping and expecting for a complexed villain with Ozai. Well, as yice said, that's a whole 'nother argument. The topic is redemption, not character-depth. O.o wow I missed some stuff... well I know it sucks to agrue with a bunch of people, and you're gonna reply to grandmaster, so I just want to say one thing and then I'll shut up. No, no, MsJimmy! If you'd like to continue our debate, I'm all for it.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jun 18, 2007 16:48:44 GMT -5
--Azula had no way of knowing her plan was working when she was ordering the Circus Master. And she wasn't attempting to get anything out of him at all. She was terrorizing Ty Lee into joining her through scare tactics. Plain and simple, that was her plan. That is not a good friend.
--The Drill was hardly Azula's plan. We've seen the War Minister before, and we've seen foreshadowing of the drill in the mechanist's office. She didn't need Qin...this was his plan from the start. She was probably just there because, on the offchance it worked, she wanted to be there to take the credit as the commander. She didn't appear too enthusiastic about the whole affair.
--Azula treats Mai and Ty Lee decently for a simple reason: yes, she could just order them around and be all rude if she wanted, but that hardly inspires loyalty. The best way to ensure 100% effort in your team is to treat them well. Otherwise, they would only halfass it whenever she wasn't looking (In Mai's case, she probably wouldn't do jack).
--Azula was a brat when she was 8. Now she's 14 and she's a b***. Remember when she shouted "Don't inturrupt Uncle!" at Iroh? Or that whole shpiel about the tides? What about publicly humiliating Long Feng in front of the men who used to follow his orders?
--One important thing to recognize about dreams. In real life, they mean little. In stories, it's an entirely different note. Especially a dream that appears prophathetic like this one. This dream was heavily emphasized; Zuko's fever was a main focus of the episode. They did NOT just stick that in for no reason. It means something. The red dragon had Iroh's voice. The blue dragon had Azula's voice. The blue dragon ATTACKED Zuko in the end. And that scene where they were both on his shoulder convincing him what to do ( much like the angle/devil situation we see many times) was clearly duplicaded in CoD.
--Ozai didn't conjure flames around him when Zuko spoke out. They were already there. Wenever we've seen the Fire Lord on his throne he's been ringed in fire. It's just part of the scenery. Zuko's anger is very open. Very much an explosion of passion. Ozai never did this. His anger was always a cold, seething burn. Like Azula. That's why Zuko didn't know he would be fighting his father.
--So if Azula hypothetically has hit rock bottom in terms of evilness, that's grounds for her to turn good? That never works in stories. A character as evil as she is could never become sympathetic without compromizing everything she is. I seriously don't see how they would expect us to feel sorry for her after she KILLED AANG.
--GOZ's main point about the flashback, I think, is that everything in them really happened. So regardless of whether as soon as Zuko left the room Azula was all snuggly and happy, the evidence is clear that she was already a devious, mean little girl at such a young age.
Why did we only see this side of her? Because it's the only side that exists! These people aren't real. The creators show us key scenes of their actions in order to paint a picture of what they are like as characters. If she was supposed to be sympathetic in any way, they would have clearly shown clear scenes of her good side. They have not. Those scenes weren't even ambiguous: they clearly showed her as pretty much the same person she is now.
And I think it's too late to start now. After, what? 8 episodes? With absolutely no sign of a good side? No way. If they started now, it would be like a completely different set of writers took over for the new season. It would just mess up her character and the entire storyline. She's a villain. That's all she's there for. Most stories include villains that are pure, balls to the wall, evil, and that does not make them poorly written. They want you to cheer when these people are killed, not have mixed-feelings.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 18, 2007 16:54:46 GMT -5
Azula's satifaction came from her plan working. Not from the possibility of Ty Lee dying. Was she really enjoying herself? I thought it was just her putting on a act just to trick that circus master, but I guess she could have just forced him to do those things...If she was enoying herself, then I think it was because she was impressed with Ty Lee's abilities or because her plan was going perfect. I don't think she would enjoy seeing one of her firends and most powerful teamates just die before she even got to complete her mission. I think Azula had complete confidence in Ty Lee's ability to not mess up the act otherwise she wouldn't have even wasted her time with Ty Lee. ...Okay, hold on a minute. You think Azula might have been acting in front of the ringmaster? If that's the case, it shouldn't be so hard to accept the possibility that she might be acting around her so-called "friends". But, unlike that prospect, she had no conceivable reason whatsoever to fake her behavior in front of the ringmaster. I might add that her voice is often rather monotone... but when she ordered the net to be set aflame, along with the stampede of deadly animals to come barreling out, she sounded excited. Joyful, even! She was having a blast! If you don't believe me, listen to it again. In that instance, she was acting more like a fourteen-year-old than she ever has. She wore the nastiest smile, and her voice actually held emotion: a kind of sinister elation at Ty Lee's hardship. All three enjoy each others company. I don't think Azula shoved Ty Lee out of anger. I didn't see any anger shown by Azula at all. She shoved Ty Lee simply because she thought it would be funny, and to her it was funny. The same as when she shot that apple of Mai's head. Both Azula and Ty Lee enjoyed that. If Azula was as angry as your making her seem, she would have shown it. We have seen Azula get angry before, and when she does get angry it shows up on her face. She cleary didn't take their game seriously as your suggesting. She was just having fun with her friends. Ty Lee didn't think it was so funny. She sounded hurt by it all. Azula pointed and laughed at her -- totally uncalled for. And Ty Lee enjoyed the flaming-apple trick because she thought Zuko and Mai were "cute together". Azula had ( and still has ) no use for such sentiment -- she knew it would cause them discomfort, and, in her normal nasty fashion, obtained enjoyment from it. For Azula, "having fun" = someone else's misery, apparently. She needed Qin to control and maintence the Drill. She was trying to use the drill to break the walls of Ba Sing Se, and without Qin it wouldn't be possible. She needed him as well. So why was Qin not getting privileges as well? I think it's clear Mai and Ty Lee got privileges because of their FRIENDSHIP and not their rank. I still think it's pomp: its purpose being to ensure loyalty and keep up morale. As for "friendship"... I'd like to know why she ignored their presence until she needed them to assault the Terra Team. This is a consistent behavior for her. Mai and Ty Lee can, more times than not, be found interacting with each other as Azula stands in the background somewhere, very much off to herself, expressing little-to-no interest in their banter. She the most disengaged "friend" I've ever seen. If Azula didn't like Mai and Ty Lee why would she treat them as well as she does? It's not something she has to do. As Princess of the Fire Nation, she could just shoot out orders and they will obey or possibly face being labled as traitors or even banishment. I think she treats them as well as she does because they are her friends. Yes, I do think it's possible she would make Zuko a throne in the Earth Kings palace. Zuko is a war hero and prince of the fire nation. He's not about to be in some dirty old room with the grunts. If Mai and Ty Lee get thrones, then so will Zuko. If Azula becomes firelord would Zuko still be considered a prince? I mean, Iroh isn't prince of the fire nation. I need to know more about that before I can answer that question. I don't think she treats them very well at all, so I can't respond. Obviously, Zuko wouldn't be thrown in an ordinary room with grunts or even the Dai Li. To grant him his own throne is presumptuous, however, as he remains below her. This was demonstrated by Azula pointedly seating herself in the Earth King's throne. She never offered the seat to Zuko -- it's hers and hers alone, even though "they" supposedly conquered Ba Sing Se together. If they're equal in status, he should be allowed a turn or two. And, should a throne be commissioned, it would imply that the two are equals: something Azula, in all her egocentricity, would wish to avoid. The same would be applicable should Azula become Fire Lord. No one is of equal standing to her. I just think that brat fits Azula better. A jerk would be like that Warden with the cool accent. A brat is more "na na! I have this and you don't!!" Thats how I see Azula. The way Zuko talks to Iroh...Thats kinda jerkish. Azula had moments where she mirrored the Warden. Truth be told, both words could be applied to her. Until everything in that dream comes true I can't consider it anything more then a dream. The dream had stuff in it that just isn't about to happen. Zuko with no scar? Nope...Air bending tattos? Nope...Most of the things that hapen in the dream were just Zuko's imagination. That includes evil blue dragons and good red dragons. If this dream is to be seen as reality, then every single thing in the dream has to happen...other wise it's just a dream. the Blue dragon had Azula's voice, but did not have Azula's personality at all. Azula may be evil, but not freaky evil like that dragon was. The red dragon did not seem like Iroh neither. It had his voice, but did not talk like Iroh at all. I feel the same about Azula and the blue dragon. Zuko without his scar; with Airbending tattoos... were symbolic. There's a thread in the Theories section that addresses this issue. These images are not meant to be taken in a literal sense. Many people would consider Azula to be as "freaky-evil" as the dragon. A matter of perception, really. Some people are downright disturbed by her! You might not be, but others are. I've seen many remarks of the sort. It's interesting you should say those things about the dragons; that they lacked the personalities of the people they're meant to represent. I'm not accusing you of error, but I've never come across that sentiment before. Ozai seems like Zuko to me. He gets ticked off pretty easily...Remember in "The Storm" when Iroh was explaining what happened to Zuko? "After Zuko's outburst in the meeting, the Fire Lord became very angry with him." When Iroh said this, Ozai out of anger bended the flames around him. Like he was super ticked. Kinda like when Zuko did the same thing to the candles. I think it's safe to say that Ozai has a temper. When he was fighting Zukohe seemed calm at first...All the way until Zuko droped to the floor. "You will fight for your honor", Ozai said in a calm voice. Notice how when Zuko begged for mercy Ozai instantly got angry and raiesed his voice. "Rise and fight for your honor, Prince Zuko!" Ozai defenitly has a temper. Of course Ozai became "very angry" with Zuko -- he spoke out of turn! Zuko dishonored him in his war-room. He wasn't going to sit back and act nonchalant about it. No Fire Lord would. Azula is capable of anger, too. Everyone is. Some people have raging tempers; others don't. Neither Ozai nor Azula appear to have such temperaments. If someone insulted Azula's station, or her honor, I'd wager she'd react much the same as her father. That's a huge no-no in the Fire Nation. Also, when Ozai did raise his voice, it was in frustration. To him -- and perhaps even the rest of the Fire Nation -- Zuko was showing weakness in refusing to fight. He was once again dishonoring Ozai. That change in tone doesn't make him an out-of-control maniac with an outrageous temper. Again, Azula can and does get frustrated... she'd likely act in kind. Well, yeah, this isn't DBZ...She wouldn't blowing up planets, but Nations instead. If she was to become even more evil she wouldn't be able do anything outside of evil. She should be nothing more than a mindless killer that has no character at all. I just don't see her falling as a character...She doesn't have any room to become more evil. Nothing I say is going to make you change your mind on this, so I'll respectfully disagree, stating once again that Azula has not yet cleared an unattainable pinnacle of evil. The slaughter of her own family members would definitely increase her level of evilness. She can fall further, and I think she will. How come we didn't get to see more of Azula's relations with her friends? How come we didn't didn't get to see Azula's time with Ursa? The answer is simple. It's because it was Zuko's episode seen from his POV. If it was an unbiased flashback that was ment to further develop all the character in it we would have seen some of those things. It's not Iroh that I think she felt sorry for...It's Lu Ten. Perhaps the creators felt Azula's relations with the other characters were touched upon sufficiently in the flashbacks, and anything further would become redundant. They didn't need to show Azula antagonizing the other children anymore than they already did. The audience understood that she was a tyrannical little nightmare from what was on display. I think they drove home their point. Until something more conclusive is shown, she likely didn't feel sorry for Lu Ten. I can't fathom a reason why she would. Same thing...were talking about redeeming qualities that can be tied in with charater depth. Well... do you want her to remain a villain? If not, that's completely relegated to redemption. --GOZ's main point about the flashback, I think, is that everything in them really happened. So regardless of whether as soon as Zuko left the room Azula was all snuggly and happy, the evidence is clear that she was already a devious, mean little girl at such a young age. Yes, yice! That's exactly what I was trying to say.
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MsJimmy
Refugee Aang
*drok**punk**highfive*
Posts: 4,630
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Post by MsJimmy on Jun 18, 2007 21:02:53 GMT -5
I agree with Grandmaster here. She was happy because it was working. She did all that to get Ty Lee on her team. She knew Ty Lee could handle it and wouldn't get hurt. otherwise she wouldn't have done it. It doesn't make sense for her to do something she knows could hurt her, when she wants her on her team. In a way, it was less mean to Ty Lee. Instead of telling her she had no choice, and she had to do it- she manipulated it so it seemed Ty Lee did have a choice, and wasn't being forced into it. fake yes, but she kept in mind that she didn't want Ty Lee to resent her for forcing her to do something. ... I thought it was funny It's not like Azula was trying to hurt her. Kids do stuff like that all the time. I was a brat when I was little, and I could be a real brat to my best friend, who I grew up with. but the thing is, you tend to be mean to the people you're most comfortable with. I know that sounds odd, but it's like... you always know they're going to be your friends, so you're not afraid to make a mistakes, or be a brat to them. You trust them. It just happens. They all hung out together, so obviously Azula being a brat was nothing new. She doesn't ignore them. Whenever Ty Lee makes a comment or something, you can see Azula turn her head in her direction, or make some type of sign that she is listening. Just because she doesn't acknowledge whatever Ty Lee says, doesn't mean she's not listening. Even when they were leaving Omashu and Ty Lee and Mai were talking, Azula wasn't joining in the convo. But she did make a comment at the end, about Zuko, which shows that she was listening. I think she treats them fine. They're always sitting by her side, and are free to make whatever comments they wish. Obviously they're comfortable with her, or they wouldn't do that. Like Ty Lee's "Poof" or Mai saying she thought that one guy was gonna pee his pants in CoD. No one else with Azula has the freedom to do those kinds of things and just make comments like that. Like friends do. As for Zuko, there was one chair, and they had JUST conquered Ba Sing Se. He was standing right next to her, right next to the throne. She even stood up next to him and put her hand on his shoulder. She said "we" as in the both of them, had conquered the city. She left it a choice for him to help her, and he chose to. If he thinks of her as the freakishly evil person, then why would he even consider siding with her. I've got to go lol, so that's my response... to half of yours sorry!
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