Horyo
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Post by Horyo on Nov 17, 2006 22:36:50 GMT -5
This is why I hate being 3-4v1. I have to write a 3 page post... That's all good and fine. I don't want to spite them, and I suppose that in your eyes, my 'useless clinging' is annoying. Well, too bad. It's what we evil Christians are best at. Sorry I'm such a bigot. Or even better, how about we all just get 'married' in churches and get 'legal unions' from the state? That way, everbody's happy. What am I? Satan? He allows it to happen, yes, but he doesn't WANT it to happen. The second paragraph I agree with. He does know the outcome, whatever that outcome is. That means he would let people suffer, and that he truly does not love us. If he didn't want it to happen, he wouldn't allow it, since this is technically defying him. He could stop it, but he doesn't, and if he loves us, he wouldn't condemn us for osmething he could stop, therefore he wouldn't mind homosexuals. I know, but that's the only similarity I saw, and it has nothing to do with gay marriage NOW. I don't care how anybody views my opinion now, in the future, or how they used to view it. This is my opinion. I don't change them to suit the times. People who do so have no belief in their opinions, and if they don't believe in their own opinions enough to uphold them, then they really shouldn't HAVE them in the first place. Why are you implying? That I don't hold to my opinions? Anyways, what does interractial marrige have to do? Well in antebellum south, and even postbellum America, interracial marrige was looked down upon, as maryying an African American, is a "sin" to many white southerners. Similarly today it is sin to Christians to marry homsexually. I said 'church'. Church can be replaced by whatever other holy place you want, 'synagogue', 'evil icy castle', whatever. Marriage is a biblical term, not a state term. The state has only the right to give legal unions. It's not like Christianity recognizes the other marriages, but they have a right to happen. I'm not completely unopen. [/quote] Marrige is the union of two people. It has been used by church and state, and there has been nothing wrong with that to the mass of the Christian Faith, until Gay people wanted to be "married."
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Gandalan
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Post by Gandalan on Nov 17, 2006 22:45:14 GMT -5
That means he would let people suffer, and that he truly does not love us. If he didn't want it to happen, he wouldn't allow it, since this is technically defying him. He could stop it, but he doesn't, and if he loves us, he wouldn't condemn us for osmething he could stop, therefore he wouldn't mind homosexuals. With all due respect, you have no right to say that. He could have stopped the Holocaust too, but he didn't. Does that mean He doesn't love us? How would you know, anyway? I suppose you've spoken with Him on the topic? Good heavens, no. You're nearly as stubborn as I am. I was supplying reasoning for my own stubborness. Again, what does this have to do with what I say? Whether or not the two are similar means nothing to this debate. Or are you trying to justify gay marriage via the acceptance (currently) of interracial marriage? In that case, I will say, as I did before, that it is very different. Gay marriage does not equal interracial marriage (between a male and a female). Though there are similarities, there are also many differences. God does not specify that a black person cannot wed a white person, whereas he DOES specify that you shouldn't do it with another guy if you are one. I wasn't BORN until 16 years ago, and I got interested in politics only about 3 years ago. Like I said before, I don't care what people have believed before me, what other people believe now, or what they will think of me for what I believe after I am gone. I believe what I believe, and that's all.
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Post by mikael on Nov 17, 2006 23:20:30 GMT -5
And have you? Seeing as the last real imprint of what He said was written over 1800 years ago, I doubt you've exaclty gotten his most recent opinion.
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Gandalan
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Post by Gandalan on Nov 17, 2006 23:23:11 GMT -5
And have you? Seeing as the last real imprint of what He said was written over 1800 years ago, I doubt you've exaclty gotten his most recent opinion. 'Recent'? He never changes.
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Post by mikael on Nov 17, 2006 23:27:08 GMT -5
And how do you know this? How would you know?
You're arguing yourself into a corner here, because faith such as the type you're describing is strictly anti-logic, and debates are based on logic. Thus, if you wish to debate religion against homosexual marriage, I suggest you stop using God as your basis, because you have no proof.
Look at WW's posts, she's quite articulate and lays out quite a few good reasons.
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Gandalan
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Post by Gandalan on Nov 17, 2006 23:30:48 GMT -5
And how do you know this? How would you know? You're arguing yourself into a corner here, because faith such as the type you're describing is strictly anti-logic, and debates are based on logic. Thus, if you wish to debate religion against homosexual marriage, I suggest you stop using God as your basis, because you have no proof. Look at WW's posts, she's quite articulate and lays out quite a few good reasons. I would know because the Bible says so. That's how. Debates are based upon whatever either side chooses to offer. I offer up the faith side of the argument. And so far as I can tell, I'm not in a corner. I've given plenty of reasons based on biblical interpretation and also on my own opinion (which has been based off of my upraising and experience). That is proof enough, unless you're too paranoid to make leaps of faith. And then I have nothing to offer you. I am not WW. And I don't argue like her. She can argue however she likes, and I'll do the same.
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Post by mikael on Nov 17, 2006 23:42:51 GMT -5
If the Bible says so, cite the verse.
As for faith...
One can have faith in anything, but that doesn't consist as proof. I can have faith the sky will be a bright shade of purple with yellow polkadots, but that doesn't mean it will be. In a debate, one generally offers points that have at least some basis in fact, because that provides credible evidence for their side.
I don't make leaps of faith, because life has never, and I doubt never will, require me to make one.
Back on topic we go. PM me if you wish to debate the topic of debating further.
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Gandalan
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Post by Gandalan on Nov 17, 2006 23:54:00 GMT -5
God never changes (He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, Heb. 13:8)
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Grandi
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Post by Grandi on Nov 18, 2006 1:17:25 GMT -5
Alright this has turned into a God vs. Logic topic. Faith and logic can never exist together because they are mutually exclusive. If something is logical and factual, no faith is needed to believe in it, however, if something cannot be proven, faith is needed to believe it exists.
Give me a reason not to lock this.
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Gandalan
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Post by Gandalan on Nov 18, 2006 1:38:06 GMT -5
...Because we love arguing?
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Horyo
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All your bending are belong to us.
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Post by Horyo on Nov 18, 2006 2:08:29 GMT -5
That means he would let people suffer, and that he truly does not love us. If he didn't want it to happen, he wouldn't allow it, since this is technically defying him. He could stop it, but he doesn't, and if he loves us, he wouldn't condemn us for osmething he could stop, therefore he wouldn't mind homosexuals. With all due respect, you have no right to say that. He could have stopped the Holocaust too, but he didn't. Does that mean He doesn't love us? How would you know, anyway? I suppose you've spoken with Him on the topic? Good heavens, no. You're nearly as stubborn as I am. I was supplying reasoning for my own stubborness. Again, what does this have to do with what I say? Whether or not the two are similar means nothing to this debate. Or are you trying to justify gay marriage via the acceptance (currently) of interracial marriage? In that case, I will say, as I did before, that it is very different. Gay marriage does not equal interracial marriage (between a male and a female). Though there are similarities, there are also many differences. God does not specify that a black person cannot wed a white person, whereas he DOES specify that you shouldn't do it with another guy if you are one. I wasn't BORN until 16 years ago, and I got interested in politics only about 3 years ago. Like I said before, I don't care what people have believed before me, what other people believe now, or what they will think of me for what I believe after I am gone. I believe what I believe, and that's all. I suppose you have spoken to him? And he has replied? You're still missing my point in comparing Gay marrige to Interracial marrige. People have once thought of interracial marrige as a form of sin or crime, white (supremecist and racists) believed marrying a black was disdain to honor, and someone said "taboo." It is the same as homosexual marrige, people view it as a sin, a crime. However it does nothing to harm society, it only goes against the general beliefs of the people. About the Bible, sorry Grandi off topicness, it is only an interpretation of God's words, and who says that God really told us these things? Religion's main purpose is not to worship, but to live a good virtuous life with deeds. If a gay person marries, I doubt that that is some crime or whatnot, it's just different, and they can still live a virtuous happy life. So why deny them that right?
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Gandalan
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Post by Gandalan on Nov 18, 2006 2:21:06 GMT -5
With all due respect, you have no right to say that. He could have stopped the Holocaust too, but he didn't. Does that mean He doesn't love us? How would you know, anyway? I suppose you've spoken with Him on the topic? ^ Explained above. SIGH You just don't get it. I've told you now 3 times. GOD DOES NOT FORBID INTERACIAL MARRIAGE. HE DOES PROHIBIT GAY MARRIAGE. And that's about as bluntly as I can give it to you. If you STILL insist on posting your argument over again, I won't reply, because this is the 3rd time I've given my answer.
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Grandi
Bato
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Post by Grandi on Nov 18, 2006 2:24:31 GMT -5
Gandalan is right, the Bible is against homosexuality. However, it says nothing about gay marriage specifically. But it's probably safe to assume that it is not for it.
However, that is no reason to claim that gays can't get married. Since the Bible has nothing to do with the constitution.
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Post by Awapuhi on Nov 18, 2006 6:42:00 GMT -5
Or the US Government. No Church and State connection was decided pretty early on in our history.
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Post by Dutchy on Nov 18, 2006 7:31:02 GMT -5
Because Christians are programmed to be obsessed with the behavior of their neighbors. They have absolutely no respect for anyone's beliefs but their own. They may say they do, but its lie (whether they realize it is or not). If they truly respected other's beliefs, they'd have the decency to leave these people alone and let them live their lives the way they want. But they feel the need to metaphorically kick the door down of gay couple's house and scream "STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!! YOU'RE PISSING OFF MY GOD!!" Excuse me! That is not a very nice thing to say. Not all Christians are like that. I'm sorry you think we are. I don't really believe in gay marriage, but I'm not going to force my opinions down anybody's throat. You're doing exactly what you're saying Christians are doing. You're bashing us for what we believe in. While some Christians may be like that, not all of us are. I suggest you actually stay on the topic, which by the way is "The Homosexual Debate." This isn't the "Bash all Christians" thread. Well you're right that it wasn't nice what he said but he's right but he just is a bit more direct to the case
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