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Post by Nightmare on Sept 5, 2010 14:27:04 GMT -5
Oh, so my argument is busted because you have some vague memory of an article you read a couple weeks ago about a computer lab in Germany? Even if true, that just means some folks in Germany believe the line about everything being an addiction and acted on it. What can I say? It's Europe and it doesn't surprise me. Of course, they can. In the area of science especially, many advancements would never have been made were it not for German scientists. I was talking more socially. Europe is usually first to embrace every so-called progressive, counter-intuitive pop psychology social policy. They've become a collection of nanny states. They don't value individualism and personal responsiblity the way the US does (or used to). Have you ever seen someone whose done spray for any length of time? I have. I mean this for real. They've literally destroyed their brain they look like the walking dead. I think I posted that before we had our private discussion. Every post I've written has been meant to be taken in a general sense, I didn't direct anything specifically at any one person. Okay, that's not entirely correct. I think actually advocating and encouraging experimentation with drugs is a dumb thing to do. I mean, isn't that what pushers do? Okay, point taken. I hadn't considered this. If I've offended anyone who's dealing with this in their family, I am sorry. I said before I have sympathy for the family, often they are the first victims. Junkies hurt actual people, how about a little sympathy for them? I just think coddling junkies and patting them on the head and telling them they're not so bad and it's not their fault only enables it. Junkies thrive on the attention. There's a point when drug use is no longer just dumb, it's criminal and it should be treated that way. Now, all that being said, I do have repect for people who face their addiction and work to shake it off. I can appreciate how hard that must be. Exactly. Once you let yourself fall into that lifestyle you can never really be rid of it. So why would anyone knowingly want to risk it? It's because people think they're smarter and stronger than every other junkie that thought the exact same way. BTW, why the need for a "cure" if you all contend that it's no big deal and nothing more than a fun lifestyle choice? Yeah, I can see this. I'm sure there a folks who have gone through some trauma in their lives that are trying to, as you say, self medicate. The thing is though, there point at which their substances take over everything else and that's when they start making victims out of others. That's when they should want to reevaluate what they're doing and failing to do so shows a lack of character and empathy. With no empathy one becomes nothing more than a sociopath. I'm not saying there's no such thing as peer pressure or even that I've never given into it. I'm just saying that it only happens when you participate some in it yourself and make it seem that you really do want to do whatever they're trying to get you to do. Good thing you clarified. The post I was responding to seemed dubious about your assessment of peer pressure. And to the rest of your message: Lately, peer pressure and psychoactive drugs aren't as correlated as parents would try to tell their children. Typically, there's no gain for a drug-user to spread his interests, unless he were profiting in the drug-trade. I agree and it's what I've been saying all along. It's a cop out, not just for the user but also for parents who want to blame their kids' addiction on the "wrong crowd". I mean, I understand the impulse to minimize their kids' blame but it doesn't mean they're right. Withdrawal symptoms from anything that's non chemical are usually just in the person's head. Withdrawal happens because the body has grown dependent on a certain chemical and, in this case, I'm not claiming it has to be illegal drugs. People withdraw from sugar and caffiene (and no, before somebody tries to claim it, neither are drugs). Any withdrawal from anything non chemical is psychosomatic (however that's spelled). Lindsay Lohan is another good example. These are people we should want to emulate? Any success that a user may have is despite the drug, not because of it. In fact, even for some of these people who have/had arguably everything, they lose it all because they suck it up their nose or inject it. I think Grandi's list more proves my points than his.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 5, 2010 15:33:01 GMT -5
tl;dr also, Of course, they can. In the area of science especially, many advancements would never have been made were it not for German scientists. I was talking more socially. Europe is usually first to embrace every so-called progressive, counter-intuitive pop psychology social policy. They've become a collection of nanny states. They don't value individualism and personal responsiblity the way the US does (or used to). Shut up. Make me. As Gran stated above, this is the CT. Please make some effort in your posts.Okay. Ultimately Gags, you'll probably get the last laugh on this. All the ideas of rugged individualism and responsibility that have made the US great are being flushed (much like drugs get flushed when DEA is at the door - to keep on topic) and we're heading in the direction of Europe so that we too can all just rely on the government for everything from jobs and health care to methadone and free needles.
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Horyo
RP Admin
All your bending are belong to us.
Posts: 2,572
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Post by Horyo on Sept 5, 2010 15:46:51 GMT -5
Withdrawal doesn't have to be dependent on an outside chemical. The body naturally produces neurotransmitters in response to stimuli. The stimulus can be anything, but if it triggers chemical production in the nervous system long enough, the person becomes habituated and their system is sensitized to producing that chemical again. If the person was then deprived of this stimulus then the withdrawal symptoms occur.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 5, 2010 16:08:30 GMT -5
You can't tell me you've ever witnessed someone withdrawal from a computer addiction as severely as they withdraw from a heroin addiction, can you? The computer thing I could see maybe a headache, irritability, and some anxiety. Folks withdrawing from chemical dependency should be so lucky. They get really physically ill and puke their guts out. It takes days too as their body purges the poison while they detox. There's nothing to detox from in the case of a computer habit. Here, let me use TV as an example. I love watching TV. I grew up with a TV always on. If I'm really stressed about something, television actually helps distract me. If anyone should be addicted, it's me. But if I can't have it for some reason, I'm fine. I get no physical symptoms at all. Oh, I may get bored but none of it makes me so desperate that I want to break into someone's house to watch their TV. It's just not the same thing as a true chemical dependency.
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Post by goten0040 on Sept 5, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Maybe not puking his guts out, but there was a young boy that suffered from computer addiction due to an MMORPG and found himself stuck in the world he was playing in inside his head, and he ended up committing suicide. Here's an article on one.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 5, 2010 16:22:50 GMT -5
That sounds more like a mental illness.
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Post by goten0040 on Sept 5, 2010 16:31:32 GMT -5
And you don't consider addiction a sort of mental illness? I'm not trying to get you off track, but clearly you think there is something very wrong with people who are addicted to certain substances.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 5, 2010 16:37:21 GMT -5
And you don't consider addiction a sort of mental illness? I'm not trying to get you off track, but clearly you think there is something very wrong with people who are addicted to certain substances. Yes I do and I think addiction can lead to mental illness. Still you can't choose to not have a mental illness, you can choose to not do drugs and become addicted.
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Post by Musogato on Sept 5, 2010 16:57:59 GMT -5
Aw, and here I thought this would be about a silly spider video. Oh well. To add more to the computer addictions part: there have been deaths in China and South Korea from people playing online games so continuously that they died from exhaustion; neglect deaths from parents playings games while their kids drowned in the bathtub or starved; and murders from people either robbing for money or snapped from being separated from their game. ( links) To say that all online/computer addictions are just a bad habit is being untruthful to the situation. For some people, yeah, it's just a bad habit that eats up some of their time, but for others it is a dangerous problem. There are still a lot of studies being done because it's not like previous generations had the kind of computer face time that we do now, but there are already a few help clinics in various countries to help those with online and MMORPG addiction, including the US. ( links) Not everyone becomes addicted to things they do in excess. Your personal example with watching TV is like that. But some people overdo it to a whole different level, to where they completely ignore the outside world or their own bodily needs, like eating. But addiction is very much a personal nuance. Some people are very resistant to addictive material, while others are incredibly vulnerable to it. Yes, responsibility plays a part, but there's a lot more to it than that. If addictions could be broken by just saying, "I'm over this. BAM! DONE." then it wouldn't be such a global and historical human issue. Even people who want to quit have trouble doing so, and it often requires an outside source to help them, whether it's a rehab clinic, supporting family/friends, God, or whatever else. As for the children of addicted mothers, it was a HUGE issue back in the 80's and 90's in the US, but maybe you've never heard of the term 'crack babies'? It's not parents shooting up their kids, it's pregnant women doing drugs, and exposing/addicting their fetus/babies to it at the same time. Although some drugs cause more issues than others, and it's really been going on longer than that. ( link) I can tell this issue is personal for you Nightmare, but treating it all under one umbrella theory / 'rain, rain, it's all the same' isn't being fair to it because the issue is far more complicated than that. You cast a wide net by disparaging all drugs, but what about over-the-counter drugs and pharmaceuticals? What about the benefits of some drugs, like pot, that helps cancer patients and those with chronic pain or psychosis? I'm not really sure what this thread is trying to prove; it has too many small fires lit at once, and too broad of word use.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 6, 2010 0:04:25 GMT -5
Cr@p, I was working on a pretty thorough reply when my iPad gave up on the connection and erased it. It's probably for the best anyway.
Really, it all just comes down to this, I'm not interested in excuses. Someone makes the decision to get drunk or high, they have nobody but themselves to blame when their life turns to sh*t. Yet they often do blame everybody else and bleeding hearts (I actually mean no offense by this term, I'm just using it as a shorthand, and a bit lazy, way of describing those who are interested in excuses) enable that thinking.
Yeah, Musogato, this is a personal issue but I'm not going to get into that.
Finally, and this is a bit off topic (but, heck, I started this thread, I can jack it if I want to), it's been suggested several times to me now that what I've been posting is not up to par in the vaunted CT board. With all due repect, I did not ask to have this thread moved here. Do I really need to write a research paper or get a degree in a topic before I can post a reply?
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Sept 6, 2010 9:08:48 GMT -5
No, but you're generalizing. Calling all people who do drugs "stupid" or any other slang terms to insult their intelligence is not really the forum's style, especially because you seem to be including all drugs in this, like caffeine, ibuprofen, and alcohol, not just heroin and cocaine.
Your thread was moved to the CT because the discussion became more of a debate instead of a friendly discussion, which is what we want the OGB to be.
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 6, 2010 12:57:37 GMT -5
Yeah, Ibuprofen and caffeine addicts are the worst. Breaking into houses, stealing people's Advil and Folgers so they can speedball them together. Use a little common sense.
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Grandi
Bato
Prince of All Cosmos
Posts: 603
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Post by Grandi on Sept 7, 2010 12:04:29 GMT -5
I and quite a few of my friends use drugs frequently and have never broken into any houses, or stolen anything from anyone.
However I do know a guy who religiously stays away from drugs and alcohol but did break into a house and steal a TV once.
Anecdotal evidence aside, millions of people smoke weed, drink, etc just in America, and I'm pretty sure all of them don't break into houses to fuel their habits.
Do you even know the effects of marijuana, LSD, etc? Can you tell me how Acid can drive you to "break into a house"?
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Post by Nightmare on Sept 7, 2010 19:47:14 GMT -5
Honestly, I cannot say what the the effects are of any illegal substance (that's what I've speaking of all along, it's been brought to my attention that I haven't been clear on that). I've never done any of it, not even m/j. I've never been the least bit curious.
Don't waste your time on me, Grandi. I cannot be objective about this. I guess that much is pretty obvious, huh? I'll never be convinced that using is just this harmless, even laudable thing. I've personally seen the damage drugs can do, to the user and to others, to friends and family members. I guess everyone just needs to make their own decision on this. There's nothing I, or anyone else, can do really to make drugs so that they're never available, I would if I could. To counter your encouragement to try drugs, I would just like to say there are many benefits of choosing to find your "high" in other ways. There is lots to experience that doesn't need to be chemically "enhanced" or altered. With that, I'm stepping down from my soapbox now.
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Post by longshotsgirl58 on Sept 9, 2010 19:16:27 GMT -5
Honestly, I cannot say what the the effects are of any illegal substance (that's what I've speaking of all along, it's been brought to my attention that I haven't been clear on that). I've never done any of it, not even m/j. I've never been the least bit curious. Don't waste your time on me, Grandi. I cannot be objective about this. I guess that much is pretty obvious, huh? I'll never be convinced that using is just this harmless, even laudable thing. I've personally seen the damage drugs can do, to the user and to others, to friends and family members. I guess everyone just needs to make their own decision on this. There's nothing I, or anyone else, can do really to make drugs so that they're never available, I would if I could. To counter your encouragement to try drugs, I would just like to say there are many benefits of choosing to find your "high" in other ways. There is lots to experience that doesn't need to be chemically "enhanced" or altered. With that, I'm stepping down from my soapbox now. I completely agree here with you Nightmare. I have seen way to many people get involved with drugs, and even alcohol for that matter, thinking its just a harmless and fun thing then wined up get hurt in more ways then they can imagine or even died.
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