yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Dec 8, 2006 4:04:46 GMT -5
Hmm. Well I'm tired. Did the finale bother you THAT much? I'm afraid I just can't see any problems that can't be excused by a simple "This is a cartoon written by two mortal humans with a limit on how many episodes they have to tell this story."
For me, any small, minute, little probelms are vastly overshadowed by the moments of pure awesomeness. It's those awesome moments that I come here to write and read about. Small bothers interfere with my enjoyment of the show, which is why I'm working so hard at defending it. I'm not trying to be a forum nazi here, you say this is bad, I say this is good, you give your reasons, I give counterpoints, etc. It's a debate.
Just remember that nothing in life is ever perfect. There's plenty of things that would bother me about my favorite book or movie if I looked into them with the sharp eyes of a critic, but I choose not to. I choose not to be bothered by how fast the chakras scene was, because on the whole there are so many elements I love about this show I don't want to put myself down in the dumps by thinking "it could be better..."
P.S. I wasn't offended, but there are 1,000s of people who flock here everyday doing the exact thing you scowled upon. Careful or you might get flamed.
|
|
taechunsa
Katara
A wise man enjoys life's simple pleasures.
Posts: 80
|
Post by taechunsa on Dec 8, 2006 10:24:56 GMT -5
Did the finale bother you THAT much? No, it didn't. It has never been my contention that it was bad. In my opinion, it was a good episode. However, this was not just another episode, this was the finale, and as such should be written and held to a higher standard. I'm afraid I just can't see any problems that can't be excused by a simple "This is a cartoon written by two mortal humans with a limit on how many episodes they have to tell this story." Perhaps I am approaching this from the wrong direction. I am writing this as if the creators might read it and thus I am trying to make it as much of a constructive critique as possible. In giving criticism it is always nice to get feedback in the form of what you are giving. “It was great, I loved it. I loved...” These are great ego boosters and are necessary. However, the critiques that I have always cherished as much were the ones that came back with, “This was good, but it could have been better if... and here is why...” These are the types of feedback which helped me improve. The ones that were pointless are the ones that where, “This sucks!” Maybe that is the wrong way to approach this, but I have been mildly active in a couple of other online communities and both of them were often visited, one lurking and one active, by the creators looking for feedback. So, when I offer my opinion of a show I always try to offer it as if the creators might be reading it looking for constructive criticism. For me, any small, minute, little probelms are vastly overshadowed by the moments of pure awesomeness. It's those awesome moments that I come here to write and read about. Small bothers interfere with my enjoyment of the show, which is why I'm working so hard at defending it. I'm not trying to be a forum nazi here, you say this is bad, I say this is good, you give your reasons, I give counterpoints, etc. It's a debate. I am sorry I was confused when your counterpoints became “Were you inspired to come and spread your belief that it wasn't that good on a forum designed for people who love the show ...” and “This is a forum made for people who love the show.” and “If you can write a better script, there's plenty of sites dedicated to fan fiction...” all of which carry a very clear connotation that because of my reasons given and my failure to change my opinions to fit inline with your opinions that I am not a person who loves the show and should thus leave. At this point this is not really a debate. I asked for story related counters to my points and you are replying with veiled lines telling me I am not a fan and not welcome, and have fallen back on “the authors are only human and only have so much time”, which is exactly my point, they only have so much time and thus should have spent it more wisely. Please tell me how the time spent on Toph and Sokka was necessary at this time and contributed to the episodes in a meaningful way other then to appease fans that they were in it. I agree with you that there were parts of this finale that were incredible, but that does not excuse poor decisions in other parts. I am not meaning to pick on you, but you challenged me to this debate and I am simply trying to have a valid debate. If you wish to quit I am more then happy to move on to other things. A debate is only fun if both parties are enjoying it, and I do not believe that you are enjoying it anymore. Just remember that nothing in life is ever perfect. That was the entire point in my last post when I said that everything can be improved. Thus pointing out the things that can be improved does not mean that the thing is necessarily bad. There's plenty of things that would bother me about my favorite book or movie if I looked into them with the sharp eyes of a critic, but I choose not to. I choose not to be bothered by how fast the chakras scene was, because on the whole there are so many elements I love about this show I don't want to put myself down in the dumps by thinking "it could be better..." The first time I watch an episode I never watch it with a critiques eye. I simply kick back and enjoy it for the whole picture. If I ever don't enjoy it this first time then that is what I consider a bad episode. If I can't enjoy an episode while not analyzing it then the creators made some drastic mistakes. The second time I watch a show that is an entirely different story. I love analyzing things, I love looking at things with a critical eye. It is part of who I am, and I believe that it helps me in life, because I can learn from others experiences. There is no reason to be down in the dumps because something you love is not perfect, if you get down in the dumps because something has flaws you are, as you said, going to be miserable. I simply accept that everything has flaws and enjoy the challenge of finding them and then if possible sharing those findings. P.S. I wasn't offended, but there are 1,000s of people who flock here everyday doing the exact thing you scowled upon. Careful or you might get flamed. If you would be so kind, please tell me what I scowled upon that people do on this board everyday? I am at a complete loss since I have yet to see a single comment in any of my posts scowling at anything any poster on this board does. All of my critical comments have been aimed at the creators not the fans. Thank you.
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Dec 8, 2006 16:53:52 GMT -5
Were you in the debate club in high school? Cause hot dang, you're pretty good.
Alright, I see your point about constructive criticism, and agree with you there. I never really considered that the creators would come here.
I thought from the beginning you argued your points well, which is why I responded in defense of the show instead of breezing right over. I never tried to accuse you of not being a fan. When you stack those quotes there out of context with only half the sentence there, it's rather misleading. I never wanted to be personal here, and only became a little irked when you said "Thus for me the hype was a non issue. If they are so hard up that they have to resort to cheap thrill hype then the show is in more trouble then I ever realized," which seemed rather patronizing to everyone who comes here every day. That was what my P.S. was about. When I thought things were getting personal was when I stopped enjoying the debate. So please don't accuse me of attempting to take away your first amendment rights because I disagree with you. That was not, nor ever will be, my intent, and if you felt that then I am sorry.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Toph and Sokka parts. You think their stories were pointless and took up time of more important stories, I think they were entertaining to watch and thus, served their purpose, and that the fans would have thrown a fit if the characters weren't in the episode. Both valid points, and we don't seem to be able to agree on the issue.
For me, Avatar is the one cheap, burden-free enjoyment I have, so I choose not to analyze it too much. I'm being forced to do that everyday in college, studying for an english major. So yeah I know about deep analyzing, but I choose not to do it with Avatar if it hinders my simple enjoyment of the show. So I responded when you initially said you thought the show had lost a lot of the quality of the first season, because I'm loving it now more than ever.
Methinks we have a stalemate here. So white flag, we should stop bogging down the topic with this back and forth contest of wills. Muchos respecto, peace.
|
|
|
Post by LightBender on Dec 8, 2006 17:55:46 GMT -5
Since a stalemate of some form has been reached, so I'm going to write some of my ideas.
One, Aang really needs to give up Katara. He says he has. I don't think so. He still holds onto her in some part of his mind. He can't completely give her up. I want him to, mainly because I'm a Zutara and Taang fan, but I'm putting those aside for the moment.
Two, Zuko doesn't trust Azula. That's blatantly obvious. Zuko knows that his father will never truly forgive him, as much as he sometimes tries to deny it.
Three, Toph and Sokka did play minor roles in this episode. But, I think that was necessary. Their roles are some sort of building block/point that will most likely play a part in a later episode.
I welcome debates/arguments.
|
|
|
Post by conspiracytheorist on Dec 8, 2006 18:56:01 GMT -5
Were you in the debate club in high school? Cause hot dang, you're pretty good. More likely it was philosophy. Anyway, taechunsa, I was beginning to think that I was the only person on this thread who didn't approve of Toph or Sokka's irrelevant appearances in the finale. I, too, thought that most of the episode should have been devoted to Aang opening the seven chakras and attempting to completely master the Avatar State. Of course, the fight scene at the end was a visual marvel, so I would have left that in there. =P However, I would break from your standpoint where you contend that the resolution to Toph's predicament could have come in the third season. Although I would agree that the entire idea of her capture and escape was an unnecessary one, the fact that "The Earth King" left the question "what's going to happen to Toph" unanswered provided enough grounds to include that answer in the finale. This might not be the case if "The Earth King" weren't episode 18, and each Book had 20 episodes. But the word "finale" implies a conclusion. They had already screwed up - wouldn't it be even more of a screwup not to resolve what they had mistakenly started?
|
|
taechunsa
Katara
A wise man enjoys life's simple pleasures.
Posts: 80
|
Post by taechunsa on Dec 8, 2006 23:15:03 GMT -5
Were you in the debate club in high school? Cause hot dang, you're pretty good. Yes, I also helped coach a high school debate team for a few years. Thank you. Alright, I see your point about constructive criticism, and agree with you there. I never really considered that the creators would come here. I don't know for sure, but I would not be surprised. When I looked for an Avatar forum this was the first one I found. I wouldn't be surprised if the creators don't check in every once in a while. But they might not. That was not, nor ever will be, my intent, and if you felt that then I am sorry. Not a big deal. No harm, no foul. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Toph and Sokka parts. I can live with agreeing to disagree. It was a good debate. For me, Avatar is the one cheap, burden-free enjoyment I have, so I choose not to analyze it too much. I'm being forced to do that everyday in college, studying for an english major. So yeah I know about deep analyzing, but I choose not to do it with Avatar if it hinders my simple enjoyment of the show. I can respect that. Methinks we have a stalemate here. So white flag, we should stop bogging down the topic with this back and forth contest of wills. Muchos respecto, peace. Agreed. Thank you for the fun, hope finals go well for you. In closing, I wish to clarify that I never meant the comment about the hype as an insult to the fans. I made a poorly worded sarcastic remark meant to confer that I do not believe that the creators would insert a scene into the show purely for the purpose of generating hype. I apologize if anyone took that comment as an insult to the fans. It was not my intent. ***************************** conspiracytheorist, I had a class in philosophy, and over a half dozen in psychology. So you are both correct. Oh yeah, I loved the fight scene at the end. At least Katara's part. Aang just plain stunk in that fight. Her really needs to learn strategy and tactics. And good point about not leaving Toph completely hanging in the end. I was honestly hoping in The Earth King that her mother had actually changed her mind. Oh well, it is still an excellent show. Thank you all for the fun.
|
|
|
Post by ddkhslayer on Dec 14, 2006 23:10:11 GMT -5
hey can the water benders bend people? cuz all we are is water... was think about it cuz i was wondering how that one guy was bending plants.
|
|
|
Post by =Dr. Flabortast= on Dec 15, 2006 0:29:26 GMT -5
To be honest, I hoped Sokka would have decided to leave the gaang and honed his fighting skills with the rest of the Warriors only to come back in the last quarter of Season 3 as a brand new Sokka.
Don't count out Zuko/Katara interaction yet it will defenitley surmount to something in the future. I was ok with Zuko joining Azula. And yes I agree Toph really didn't have much of a purpose.
IMO Sokka should have stayed with his dad so the Hakod scene wont be so pointless.. I'm a fan of seeing Sokka moving away from 100% comic relief to a more serious but sarcastic guy(I loved Sokka's prtrayal in "Jet").
|
|
|
Post by airace95 on Dec 15, 2006 9:36:16 GMT -5
I sort of agree with the Sokka leaving thing, but doesn't it seem like the team needs him, because he always comes in and helps at the perfect moment. I think they should have gone into more depth with the whole Toph being captured thing. But overall I think this finale was almost the best episode yet.
|
|
fuego
Pabu
Four Nation Health Care
Posts: 3,430
|
Post by fuego on Dec 15, 2006 11:59:13 GMT -5
one thing I want to add since I can't find it in a theory thread...I notce that in the first Chakra, aang saw someone and was in fear of this firebender who seem to glow but what a size of a teenager or young adult...could that Zuko right there
|
|
|
Post by mahatista on Dec 16, 2006 0:03:06 GMT -5
I think the smallish bit that Toph was given in the finale was foreshadowing. Plus a way to get the Earth King away from the Angels. Her metal bending will have some focus in season 3, I feel.
Sokka is the one I've been worried about. I dedicated a whole thread to the possibility of his getting/learning some flashier weapons so he doesn't appear such a clod. He learned Kyoshi style, but when has he ever used it. Like I said in the other thread, I'm afraid he's becoming disposable. So while it was nice to see him with his dad, and I think it was almost a rite of passage thing, he really didn't add much to the finale. Maybe he'll be more mature in the next season because of that encounter.
I thought the cave scene between Zuko and Katara was very important. It was their first interaction where they weren't fighting. They made a connection (not necessarily romantic, but at least friendly) which made his actions at the end all the more appalling. And it brought out the spirit water so the audience would be reminded of it when it came out later. It also showed Aang's attachment to Katara and his jealousy (I believe he showed jealousy at first seeing Z&K together) over her -- which is a very self-destructive impulse.
I had my problems with the finale, but it's kept me thinking and theorizing even two weeks later. That's pretty good.
|
|
Twilight Mop
Sokka
Suki is still alive and still awesome!
Posts: 126
|
Post by Twilight Mop on Dec 17, 2006 12:18:33 GMT -5
one thing I want to add since I can't find it in a theory thread...I notce that in the first Chakra, aang saw someone and was in fear of this firebender who seem to glow but what a size of a teenager or young adult...could that Zuko right there Yeah I thought that didn't really look like Oazi, but I don't think it's Zuko. Maybe it is Oazi, I dunno...
|
|
|
Post by ddkhslayer on Dec 19, 2006 18:13:50 GMT -5
i thought it was zuko.i thought it ment that angg was afraid that zuko would become the fire lord.
|
|
Twilight Mop
Sokka
Suki is still alive and still awesome!
Posts: 126
|
Post by Twilight Mop on Dec 20, 2006 18:30:15 GMT -5
i thought it was zuko.i thought it ment that angg was afraid that zuko would become the fire lord. He should be more afraid of Azula as Fire Lord.
|
|
|
Post by ddkhslayer on Dec 21, 2006 23:44:52 GMT -5
for what. anng, dosnt have a tv show to tell him how bad a$$ azula really is like us.
|
|