yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 6, 2006 3:36:26 GMT -5
That seems entirely a matter of opinion. I considered the finale to be quite well done. I think there are far too many Toph fans for the Avatar community to accept her sudden dissapearance from the show lying down. It would be entirely against her nature to just have her captured and defeated and never seen again by those two chuckle-heads. Such a popular character would either need to voluntarily say her goodbyes or be killed off. Her major revelation was the whole metal bending scene. I consider her a worthy addition to the gAang, and after certain scenes such in Lake Laogi or the Earth King, you have to wonder how they would do without her.
If you want character development from the original cast, that's exactly what the whole Sokka meets his father/ Zuko and Katara in a cave thing is about. Fans have been dying to see Sokka and Hakoda reuinted since episode 15 of season one, and we found that a) Sokka inherited both his inginuity and sense of humor from his dad, b) his dad always thought he was a good warrior, and c) no matter what, Sokka will always be there to go and help Aang and Katara. Considering there was probably a grand total of 4 minutes spent on Sokka, I can't see how that's time wasted. Would you rather he just sat around, thumb up his nose the entire episode?
As for the cave scene, perhaps you missed just how much speculation and anticipation just hearing about that caused. That was significant buildup to the rather unexpected twist at the end. Seeing those two characters interact like that was very interesting imo, Zutara or not.
As for the "Giving Katara up to save the world part," I don't care if it's been done a thousand times if it's done well. The way it was presented in Avatar made a lot more sense than in the matrix or star wars movies to me.
The season finale did indeed focus on arguably the three most important characters, Aang, Katara and Zuko. Sokka and Toph had smaller roles, but their smaller roles only took up a fraction of the screen time so I'm not sure what you're complaining about. Would you rather they had had a big part in all of the finale? That would lessen the effect of Aang finally letting Katara go in the end if it wasn't just him and her fighting together. Would you rather they weren't in it at all? Like Toph was captured and never seen again and Sokka was sitting on a rock somewhere? Bad, bad writing. They had smaller parts because the story chose to focus on the major major characters and didn't have time to expand on them.
Quite frankly I disagree with everything you said, with all due respect because you argued your points intelligently. I am happy with the direction the show has taken. The plot is more streamlined than the jumping from one scenario to another format of season one. It's the second act, which always shows the hero's in their darkest moments. Having another battle SoTN style would be repetative. The characters are more serious, more believable, and the storyline has me more hooked than ever.
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taechunsa
Katara
A wise man enjoys life's simple pleasures.
Posts: 80
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Post by taechunsa on Dec 6, 2006 4:52:25 GMT -5
Thank you for your polite reply, but I still stand by my concern that an ever increasing number of "main" characters will lead to an inevitable dilution of character development which will only hurt the story. And has in fact already hurt the story.
There are only about 450 minutes in each season. So in going from five "main" characters to six "main" characters there is a loss of about 17% of the time for each character to develop at a natural pace. This tends to lead to a lack of character development or degrading of one or more of the main characters, especially caricaturization, or to rushed character development.
These are all very common on cast stories, even with stagnant numbers, and an increasing number only exacerbates the problem.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 6, 2006 16:24:03 GMT -5
I don't mind as long as the story and characters are still good. Development isn't a completely neccesary step. I believe most of that was gotten out of the way in season 1 for the purpose of allowing the storyline to flourish in season 2 and 3, which it has.
Things have gone way beyond FN=bad guys everyone else=good. The season 1 finale had a lord of the rings esque epic battle, with good vs. evil. The season 2 finale featured a man secretyly keeping the earth kingdom capital hostage through use of a secret police force and scare tactics, with Azula coming in to seize control of the Dai Li, organize a coup, and take over Ba Sing Se without a single FN soldier lost.
Not to mention the twist of Zuko and Aang being shot in the back. I'm not going to say one season finale was better than another, but the season 2 finale generated a reaction in me that no other show has when it was done. If things had ended all hunky dorey, Team Avatar wins again, I would have thought "Hmm, well all right then."
I see what you mean about too many characters, and I definently see that happening in shows like LOST "some 12 or so main characters, each of which gets their own flashback episodes," but my arguement is that with the evolving storyline, too much development can get stagnant. I'm a strong believer that good characters make a good show, but as I said, most of the development was done in season one for a purpose. If we had every episode be as revealing as The Storm, we would learn all about the characters, but they would never accomplish everything.
The only characters that I still see needed serious improvement in development are Aang and Zuko, and they are just who the majority of this finale focused on. As you can see in the finale, having 6 main characters didn't bog up the works. The creators knew to focus on the most important, and those smaller parts of Toph/Sokka were so that those two characters had soemthing to do, while revealing a bit about them.
What I'm saying is, I think the story is better and more interesting than ever (just look at the explosion of activity on this site after it was over), so it's obvious that the additon of Toph isn't holding things back at all. Both seasons were good in their own ways, and I quite frankly couldn't choose one over the other.
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Lexy
Katara
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Post by Lexy on Dec 6, 2006 16:52:48 GMT -5
I agree with everything you said yiceman and you put your opinions across so well, I have to give you karma for that. I believe the small stories with Sokka and Toph were there for character development. In my opinion, the show is going in a dark and more interesting direction than if everything ended with the gAang winning.
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Post by bomeraangsquad on Dec 6, 2006 17:14:21 GMT -5
I just hope the firebender is interesting. If he did nothing, he would wierd everyone out, but if he was all over everything, it would detract from the gaang.
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taechunsa
Katara
A wise man enjoys life's simple pleasures.
Posts: 80
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Post by taechunsa on Dec 6, 2006 17:55:25 GMT -5
yiceman, again thank you for the polite repsonse.
Regarding your theory that internet chatter equals quality.
You are correct that I missed the chatter caused by the marketing of the cave scene. Before the other day I had never looked at anything regarding the Avatar online, other then schedules. I have watched the show since its first airing, but have never been active in the online community. Thus for me the hype was a non issue. If they are so hard up that they have to resort to cheap thrill hype then the show is in more trouble then I ever realized.
As for the explosion of activity after the finale was over the same could likely have been said if the finale had totally sucked rocks. If Aang were killed and alien space monkeys destroyed the fire nation with Katara as their queen the internet still would have exploded with activity.
I do want to point out that I am not saying the finale was bad. I just think that it was not time managed as well as it could have been. Aang's movement through the chakras was extremely rushed.
The four minutes taken up by Toph would have helped lengthen the chakra scenes. Considering that I don't consider learning a new bending technique character development, Toph underwent no character development in this episode.
The development in Sokka's character in regards to his father could have come earlier or later in the series, it didn't need to happen then. This also does not mean that Sokka would have been doing nothing. He could have been with Katara doing the same things she was. Which could have just as much been used to develop his character in demonstrating his tactical and strategic skills thus offsetting the buffoonish caricature that has been plaguing his so much lately.
However, as you say this all just opinion. So, my two cents. Thank you again.
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Post by zukofan21 on Dec 6, 2006 18:06:26 GMT -5
^ Well, at least you didn't just bash the epsiode. Thankx for that.
I do agree with you about Toph though. I really thought she was going to get captured and go back home, since he already learned earthbending well.
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Post by fireflamesinferno on Dec 6, 2006 23:55:28 GMT -5
Oh dear, here go the shipping wars... In my opinion the two season finales cannot compare due to their completely different styles. The Season one finale was amazng in that it was packed with action, suspense, and it flowed beautifully. This finale, however, was good for a different reason. Yes, there was the action, which was excellent as usual. However, this finale was more about political intrigue and what not. It was about the possibility of redemption and the prospect of loyalties. It also focused much on the deeper aspects of the show...rather than having Aang go all Avatar State mojo it actually devled into the intricacies of the lore, such as with the chakras. I still can't figure out if Aang is really going to let go of Katara though. He obviously didn't in the end, ans he got zapped.
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 7, 2006 10:23:36 GMT -5
I agree with firesflamesinferno. The 2 season finales were both good, but different. They both were the biggest expressions of the themes of the season. The first season was all good vs. bad, FN bad, all others good, it was more, one central goal, typoe thing. Get to the North Pole and learn waterbending. It had scenario jumping, but all going North, in one direction, which was reflective of Season one's theme. The gaang beats all the baddies, Jet, FN NAT attack. (foreshadow of season finale) Each and every time they leave Zuko. One of his plots, capture Katara, lure Aang,ha ha ha. Bombed out. If it was Season 2, bye bye Katara The first finale reflected that because it was much more straightfoward, gaang all in one spot, must fend off attack by evil horrifwible bad guys. Aang wins, Yue dies (worst failure), Zhao dies, Zuko acts nice, shows frst signs of metamorphosis, and we're done. All cut and dry, not really a cliffhanger, just we win, yay!
Season 2, oh Lord, it's different. We start out like season one. Go find old grandmaster to teach Aang Earthbending in the nice, happy Earth Kingdom. We learn in episode 1, that there are important people in the EK that ain't wonderful. (foreshadow, anyone) General Fong, goes as far as possble to get Aang into Avatar State. (he apparently thinks Aang has mastered the chakras) Once we get to Omashu we find that it's been taken over by the FN (hey look, more foreshadowing). They want to rescue Bumi, (really) they get there, but, Bumi doesn't wanna go, (I vote foreshadow, even the things that work don't work). They go ahead, and find Toph, they get her, but not without several near failures. Zuko also leaves iroh (FORshaDOOWW) Next up they head up north, onto Ba Sing Se. Zuko is still metamophosing amorphosing in Zuko Alone. They all run into Azula, she gets out (issue) Iroh is almost killed (I-I-I-SUEEE) Aang has issues learning Earthbending. (guess what I'm gonna say)They travel up to the library and Oh My God Appa got stolen! (OH COME ON) They then have to walk across the desert and all nearly die.(yet another issue) They then find Suki, go up, go through, and beat the FN drill. (okay, something went right) They get into Ba Sing Se and it ain't no idyllic land like we all thought. It is majorly screwed up. We got LF runnin' the gov't. They can't stop that, they are stuck with Joo Dee. (skip to LL) They get to Lake Laogai and discover that there's A FREAKIN' ARMY of Joo Dees and rescue Appa(yay). They were along and meet the Earth King, who doesn't know a thing of the war (big shock) they finally convince him. And skip the finale, Aang doesn't get to unblock the last chakra, Zuko chooses Azula, BSS falls bad.
Season 2 had so many more dimensions. We learned about EK baddies, hadall kinds of different goals and just general different atmosphere. That is why they are both good for their seasons. If either of them hadbeen switched, they would have sucked. Bad. That is my long opinion.
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Post by dramaticians on Dec 7, 2006 15:10:39 GMT -5
my ideas on the episode - the guru was not wrong when he said that Aang would not be able to access the Avatar State. It will be weaker and more like a regular skill, and Aang will be easily distracted from it.
Zuko = annoying to the max at the beginning. However, he didnt go over to the other side - he is going to realize his mistake and redeem himself. At the end, when the firelord is killed, Zuko will be the new firelord - he needs to be sympathetic to the Avatar with a sense that something must be lost and something gained.
Iroh - will teach firebending. Aside from that, useless as a mentor.
Katara - wont end up w/ either Zuko or Aang. She will be the sacrifice to save the entire world. Aang will have to give her up, and after this she may accept Zuko as an ally, but she will never trust him enough to love him. Although I was exceedingly hopeful for a little while. Katara dies at the end of season 3.
Toph - ends up w/ Saka. Me being silly, but I loved the fact that she discovers metalbending.
The solar eclipse gains the team nothing. at the solar eclipse the earth nation gets back Omashu and BaSingSe, but they're in the same position they were before at the end of it. This was predicted by the fact that the library collapses around them when Sokka lies to get the information.
Zuko won't be able to kill his sister. I think toph will kill her by smothering her in earth. or Iroh lives up to his statement about putting her down.
And someone(I cant remember who) asked about Aangs old firenation friend. His firenation friend was the old emperor. The emperor was so saddened by the loss of his friend that he lost faith in the four nation system and followed the lead of his father who was ramping up the military.
Sokka storyline = majorly silly and could have been done later.
I like the darkness of the finale now that I've thought about it.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 7, 2006 15:30:32 GMT -5
Well jeeze I guess I can't sway your position there. I do have to wonder, it looks liek you never came here until the finale. Were you inspired to come and spread your belief that it wasn't that good on a forum designed for people who love the show, or was it all of the interesting things that happened that made you want to see what people were saying?
I saw like 50 new posters after the finale, and while forum activty doesn't always mean quality, you should try reading them some time. I wouldn't come here if it was all fan-foaming at the mouth and wild speculation. Also your "If they are so hard up that they have to resort to cheap thrill hype then the show is in more trouble then I ever realized." quote was quite condenscending to everyone who comes here regularly. This is a forum made for people who love the show.
As I said earlier, whether you liked the Toph/Sokka storylines or not, those characters HAD to be in it. They couldn't just be sitting around the whole episode. I like their characters, and like watching them. Whether we have a shocking revelation that develops them to a whoel new level isn't that important to me I guess. I already enjoy watching them. If you can write a better script, there's plenty of sites dedicated to fan fiction, but for now I'll trust in Mike and Bryan.
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Post by Ikkin on Dec 7, 2006 16:19:28 GMT -5
Zuko won't be able to kill his sister. I think toph will kill her by smothering her in earth. or Iroh lives up to his statement about putting her down. ...I know this is more prediction than related to the finale, but I feel the need to interject here. I don't think Toph is going to be killing anyone, or any of the other current gAang members (apart from out-of-control Avatar State Aang), for that matter. I don't think Nick would be very happy if any of the kids killed someone. Zuko is old enough so that he might be able to get away with it if it isn't intended (e.g. deflects Azula's lightning back at her, she tries to deflect it, messes up, and dies), since he's almost military age anyway. Iroh could, but I doubt he'd kill Azula on purpose, anyway.
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 7, 2006 17:29:31 GMT -5
Hey, cool, where'd I get karma? and on the goodness of this finale I would like to say this.
If they were to remove Toph from Avatar, then Aang would be stuck at his current Earthbending level, he is sans teacher. The Sokka and his dad thing will come back to us, I promise you. We all know Avatar hates just leaving things like that. We're all fantasizing maniacally about ol' Kuzon, and his role. Why should that scene have prevalence in the future? His chakra thing won't make him all 'I don't care'. Just because he isn't all dependent and attached doesn't mean he doesn't care. Note that the Airbenders love wasn't an attachment in charkra 7. You can love without attachment. The storyline hasn't been done before. An element from it has been done before. I haven't seen too many movies where the protagonist gets his sorry butt kicked. He lost the battle. The EK is GONE. It's not just one town it's the CAPITAL. And I ain't seen that afore. How can we make the chakra an entire season? That would mean we'd need almost 3(!) episodes per chakra. Ooh, that would be boredom incarnate. If we'd spent an entire episode (half finale=episode0 on Zuko, we'd have more happy, smiley Zuko, oh God. Yes, here is to hoping season 3 is as good as season one. That way they will all be great. Thank you for your time
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Post by waterb3nder on Dec 7, 2006 22:07:57 GMT -5
The issue of Aang and the avatar state has been popping up a lot lately, weve all been argueing about whether or not Aang can now control it, has he lost it altogether, etc. Well Nick.com recently took the time to, finally, update their Avatar page. The "Gear and More" discription for 220 now says...
"This colossal figure represents Aang's mastery of the Avatar State. Aang encounters this giant version of himself in space during his meditation on the seventh chakra (pure cosmic energy.) The first time he meditates, (in 2.19) Aang has a vision of Katara in trouble and has to abandon his celestial twin. The second time he meditates, (in 2.20) Aang is interrupted when Azula shoots him with lightning. In both cases, Aang is unable to clear the chakra and master the Avatar State."
So now we know, nothing is wrong with the avatar state, all Azula did was interupt Aang's meditations. And, well, mortally wound him...
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taechunsa
Katara
A wise man enjoys life's simple pleasures.
Posts: 80
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Post by taechunsa on Dec 7, 2006 23:53:08 GMT -5
************** To fireflamesinferno and historyman12, I do not believe that this thread was meant to be a comparison of the two finales, it was meant to simply be a posting of opinion and critique. I, at least, have not been comparing the two in this thread. I thought there was room for improvement in both of them, and agree that in most ways the two cannot be compared. Which is why I have not participated in the “which is better” thread. ************** Iroh - will teach firebending. Aside from that, useless as a mentor. I have to disagree with this. I think that Iroh is a superb mentor. He can teach much more then simple firebending. ************** yiceman, I must apologize if I offended you. While I have not been swayed by your opinions to change my own I did not mean to offend. I was a bit flippant with my words concerning my opinion that the cave scene was not simply placed in the show to draw attention, and thus should not be judged as good or bad upon that basis. You seem at this point to be taking this very personally and thus I wish to say that nothing I said was meant as derogatory towards the fans, the creators, or you. In the interest of full disclosure I didn't come to this forum with the intent of posting. I simply found it by googling for information on the start of the third season and was drawn in by a thread discussing the avatar state after the finale. From there I snooped around a little and decided to put in my two cents on the finale. Which, as I have stated a couple of times now, I did not think was bad, just that it could have been better and support my opinion with where I thought it could have been better. As for Toph, you contend that she had to be in the episode, but I do not see that as a valid assumption. A single short scene showing that she was still captured and being taken back to her parents would have been just as valid as what they did. It also would have added another element to the cliffhanger (Will they rescue Toph? Will she be able to escape? Etc.). The actual resolution could have been dealt with next season. I realize that you like Toph, and that others like her, but that is not enough to make a character have to be in an episode. I like Appa, but he was not in many episodes this season. It didn't make them worse, in fact it was a major element in them. At this point I have given several opinions, supported with plot elements, as to why Toph did not need as much time as she took in the show. Is there any story related reason that you can use to support your hypothesis that Toph had to be in the finale any more then I stated above? Your argument of “If you can write a better script, there's plenty of sites dedicated to fan fiction, but for now I'll trust in Mike and Bryan.” is moot. I do not have to know how to build a car to know that there are elements of it that could be improved. I don't have to be an architect to know that something doesn't function as efficiently as possible in the design of a building. The creators have created a product, just as all of the aforementioned people did. And every product always has room for improvement. Thus saying that something could be better is not an automatic condemnation of the product. Everything could be better, and I was under the impression that one point of this site was for fans to freely and openly discuss what elements of the show could have been better. If it is, then why am I not allowed to do so without being labeled a dissident. ************** If they were to remove Toph from Avatar, then Aang would be stuck at his current Earthbending level, he is sans teacher. I do not agree with this, but lets assume that this were true. Then this is simply another argument for removing Toph. Since Aang would now have a reason to return to see King Bumi, which is really what he needs since his problem doesn't seem to be lack of bending ability but lack of tactics and strategy in using those abilities, something which Bumi excelled at teaching him. ************** waterb3nder, there is some contradiction in the posts on the Avatar site. I believe that there is a thread concerning this somewhere on here title “Did Aang master the avatar state?” or some such. One thing that I will note is that this states that he never managed to master it. It does not say that he was not able to enter it. And Roku said that if Aang was killed while in the avatar state that the cycle would be broken, not that if he was killed while mastering it. So, as much it would have been nice to be able to put this topic to rest, this won't do it.
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