nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Dec 10, 2007 3:04:45 GMT -5
I still don't think the Tom Tom thing would go over well with him...
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Post by mahatista on Dec 10, 2007 3:11:25 GMT -5
I still don't think the Tom Tom thing would go over well with him... I think they consider that covered with the fraudulent (IMO) "I had to obey" speech from The Beach. That particular scene (sacrificing Tom-Tom without a blink) may have been the whole reason for that nonsense because the fans who don't like her have often used that moment as a touchstone for that dislike. Anyway, that speech made no sense in relation to anything else, so I think they consider that one taken care of. In any case I don't think it will ever be brought up again. But you're right. In any realistic sense, Zuko would not be happy about the Tom-Tom sacrifice.
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Post by mindbender18 on Dec 10, 2007 9:57:40 GMT -5
Kinda like how Zuko betrayed the only person who actually loved him for his own selfish reason?
Either way you cut it, Zuko will be a hypocrite if he looks at Mai any differently for her doing basically the same thing he did
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Post by luthien on Dec 10, 2007 10:18:20 GMT -5
Well true, what Zuko did was monumentally stupid. But at least now he realizes the error of his ways. Too bad Iroh'd already busted himself out of the joint, though!
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Post by mahatista on Dec 10, 2007 12:19:28 GMT -5
Kinda like how Zuko betrayed the only person who actually loved him for his own selfish reason? Either way you cut it, Zuko will be a hypocrite if he looks at Mai any differently for her doing basically the same thing he did Actually Azula manipulated Zuko by using his love of his country. While his personal reasons may also have been selfish, he definitely saw Iroh as a traitor at that moment. Could it also be argued that Mai was being patriotic when she sacrificed Tom-Tom? I doubt it. She didn't sacrifice her own comfort in other situations where the stakes were even higher (The Drill, CoD) so I can't see her as being moved by loyalty to the Fire Nation when she gave up her lil bro. They didn't show it being a difficult decision for her at all while they did show Zuko struggling with his decision in CoD.
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lilabby
Katara
I LOVE WINTER!!!!
Posts: 75
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Post by lilabby on Dec 10, 2007 12:22:54 GMT -5
^^I think he does know she was hunting him with Azula, but because Azula brought him into the fold instead of imprisoning him, it's all forgiven and forgotten (to him). I think anything she's done before now he forgives. It's what she does from now on he'll look at differently. If he were to come to an agreement with the gaang (whether he joins them or not) and she attacks them he'll see her as the enemy. :DOf course he knows that she was willingly hunting him down with Azula but i think he just forgave and forgot. As for Mai getting upset about zuko leaving to join the avatar and only leaving her a note, I think she might get mad or sad or just not care but i don't think she's going to join him or help Azula. I think she's just gonna wait, do nothing and see what happens. i think she does care about zuko so she's not gonna join Azula if she decides to go hunt him down again.
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Post by udkdapatsrool on Dec 10, 2007 16:49:35 GMT -5
she'll go through a stage like zuko where she's very confused about who whe's going to be loyal 2 but in the end she'll choose him.
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
Posts: 5,061
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Post by Ana on Dec 10, 2007 20:50:21 GMT -5
The thing about Mai is that she cares about nothing but Zuko. It's all Zuko. Huh. I could have swore Mai was Ty Lee's friend and a practiced knife thrower (i.e. things that require caring). Actually Azula manipulated Zuko by using his love of his country. Kinda like how Azula was in total control of the Tom-Tom situation? Sure, Azula didn't have to manipulate Mai to give up her baby brother but if she had something in protest I really doubt she would be on the show today. As for the original question, I'm betting Mai never even gets the letter. The way they focused on it made me feel like it's going to have a plot all its own, like Katara's necklace, and Azula using against for her gain is too juicy to pass up. That, added to the fact Zuko was a jerk, will probably lead to this but she'll still "choose" Zuko. His relationship with her is better and it would be a nice resolution for her character to rise above manipulation.
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Post by mahatista on Dec 10, 2007 21:41:38 GMT -5
The thing about Mai is that she cares about nothing but Zuko. It's all Zuko. Huh. I could have swore Mai was Ty Lee's friend and a practiced knife thrower (i.e. things that require caring). They don't show her caring about her knives. Could be natural talent. Sokka cares about his weapons, so we know what that kind of 'caring' is like. She practically rolls her eyes every time Ty Lee opens her mouth. Just because Ty Lee hugs and loves on Mai doesn't mean Mai give much of a hoot about the girl. She let her rush into the wall-sludge juice on her own. She may like her, but it seems to me her companionship is for lack of anything better to do. Actually Azula manipulated Zuko by using his love of his country. They didn't show her having any hesitation is my point. Azula not only didn't have to manipulate her, Mai didn't struggle with the command when it was given. She just did it. But if the command were to sacrifice Zuko, she'd have a problem. And that kind of thing gives me a problem. And that's what I'm talking about when I say she only cares about Zuko. I agree there's a good chance she's not going to see the note and Azula is going to use either lies about Zuko or a threat to Zuko to coerce Mai's assistance. She'll definitely choose Zuko in the end, but it could go very badly for her. But again, saving Zuko at any point now when compared with her sacrifice of her baby brother doesn't speak well of her. Just sayin'. I still say he should have taken her with him though if he cares so much. He's got to know he's put her in an awful position. Maybe it's the least of his worries. EDIT: I just reread this and I want to clarify the end. I think he should have taken her with him. He obviously cares about her so he should have realized that he's put her in a terrible situation. She'll be asked to choose and if he expects her to willingly choose Azula (if he cut her loose in the note) he didn't know her very well. If he asked her to wait for him in the note he dooms her to go against Azula which he should have also known would then happen. It's a no-win situation for her.
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Post by hamburger on Dec 10, 2007 21:56:12 GMT -5
Hesitation.
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Post by mindbender18 on Dec 10, 2007 22:03:39 GMT -5
To some.......because that Tom-Tom thing never phased me a bit. I don't see how it's any worse than what Zuko did
Also, Mai's smart, she knows if she would've went against Azula, there was a good chance she would've killed her and her brother on the spot.
As for the question, no matter how much Azula tries to manipulate Mai, she's going to choose Zuko and they're going to be together in the end. ( I also think Mai's going to play a huge part in her being defeated)
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Post by mahatista on Dec 10, 2007 22:27:45 GMT -5
Hesitation. Sorry. Not seein' it. Especially in the action. Azula gives her the order. They catch her in a screenshot turning her head and that's supposed to make me think she's agonizing? I've seen that episode and watched that moment closely too many times to be convinced by that screenshot. mindbender: The point is that they didn't show her the least bit bothered by it. That may have been an oversight on their part but it doesn't change the fact that they didn't show it. And it does make a difference that we saw Zuko agonizing. To many of us it does. I have no doubt she's going to choose Azula. That wasn't even the point of my original question. I guess I'm pointing out that she's in a worse position now than just about anyone else on the show. One wrong move and she's dead...if they played it at all realistically.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 10, 2007 22:33:06 GMT -5
If Mai shows regret for her actions and a desire to help people, by all means. If she stays exactly the same and just switches sides for no other reason but to be with her man...blech. Worst character ever.
Mai has to change on her own...not just because of Zuko. And she does need to change...right now she has no qualms with the war, and if we're to accept her as a good guy, she has to show some care for the people who are suffering. Right now she's a little lacking in the humanitarian department.
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
Posts: 5,061
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Post by Ana on Dec 10, 2007 22:38:30 GMT -5
They don't show her caring about her knives. Could be natural talent. Sokka cares about his weapons, so we know what that kind of 'caring' is like. She practically rolls her eyes every time Ty Lee opens her mouth. Just because Ty Lee hugs and loves on Mai doesn't mean Mai give much of a hoot about the girl. Well, that’s true but for Mai to be "so accurate that she can just pin people without even touching flesh" she would have had to care and practice. Not to mention, Mike and Bryan have specifically said that’s what she did. You seem to be forgetting parts of their friendship. Like the first thing Mai ever says to Ty Lee in canon is asking her about her well-being and in The Beach Mai tells Zuko to stop hurting Ty Lee's feelings. They catch her in a screenshot turning her head and that's supposed to make me think she's agonizing? It wasn’t supposed to make you think Mai is agonizing. Just that she’s hesitating and it especially shows in the action when they do this big close-up of her face. If they really "didn't show her the least bit bothered by it", those screenshots wouldn’t be here at all. Well, she has no qualms with the war because all her life people have told her it was a good thing. Like I said: a good resolution for her character would be to rise above manipulation.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 10, 2007 22:41:44 GMT -5
Mai's been out and seen the real world though. She saw the occupation of Omashu first hand. Zuko was subjected to similar propaganda, but we accept him as a good guy because he cares for the little guy.
Mai, no matter what she was taught, needs to care for the little guy. How lame is it if she still thinks that these innocent citizens deserve to be ruled over by the Fire Nation when she's switched sides?
I'm not holding it against her at this point that she doesn't protest the war...she is a victim of propaganda. But she NEEDS to change that, yes? She can't really be a good guy who doesn't give a crap about anyone except Zuko and herself.
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