jillrg
Avatar Korra
By Fialleril at LJ
Posts: 1,067
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Post by jillrg on Jul 30, 2008 20:04:13 GMT -5
Did it have to be done? Yes. Was it worse than death? Also yes.
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Post by akako on Jul 31, 2008 0:02:43 GMT -5
^Thank you! Glad you agree with me. @asian malaysian: Something I should have pointed out in my last post; in order for one to be a martyr, one usually has to DIE. Ozai didn't die, so you can't call him one. Avatar Roku was just that; he was an Avatar. Avatar's usually get statues built in their honor because they are the master of all the elements and are looked upon as demi-Gods, if you will. And as far as anyone really knew, Roku was killed trying to stop a volcano and know nothing of Sozin betraying him. If he spoke out against a statue of his old friend, it would raise too many questions. And yes, I'm aware that people will return to a cruel master. But like I said, given her state of mind when we last saw her, Azula would be in no fit condition to rule the Fire Nation in any capacity. No one, not even the Fire Sages could deny it. Ozai is no longer a Fire Bender and unless I'm mistaken, the Fire Lord has to be a Fire bender in order to be the Fire Lord. A Fire Lord who cannot firebend will not inspire confidence or faith in his people. (Forget the requirements of the other nations for a minute; it's clearly varies by nation. The Fire Nation clearly values powerful fire benders and the royalty are clearly held to an almost God-like status). Neither she nor Ozai are of sound mind or body; Zuko is both. There is too much evidence, too many victims and too many witnesses. The war wasn't a one-time, single event. It was a whole series of events that brought the world to where it is now. With Ozai deposed and Azula hidden away in a quiet place somewhere, the propaganda will trickle to a halt with Zuko in charge. He won't allow it. He'll demand the Fire Nation public be informed of nothing less but the truth. It will take time but eventually, the Fire Nation public will be made fully aware of the reality of the war. Think post-war Germany. There was too much evidence of the atrocities committed by the Nazi's to deny it. Since then, Germany has passed laws and has education in place to ensure that such a thing never happens again in their country. My sister stumbled across this fic last night. I read it and I think the author does an excellent and (I believe) fairly accurate take of the struggles Zuko will face as the new Fire Lord. PostbellumI think it would be a good read for anyone who's questioning Aang's decision to let Ozai live.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 31, 2008 0:36:16 GMT -5
^^ I never called Ozai a matyr. Besides, it doesnt take a matyr to illicit the kind of outrage that can overthrow a government. Look at Nelson Mandela. Consider Aung San Suu Kyi who is still detained in Myanmar. The Firesages may have been forced but they did follow Sozin when he went to ar. Except for one of them, the Firesages were prepared to betray and capture Aang when he visited the temple. They really dont seem to have any real power or influence at all. The Firenation army certainly hunted the Avatar so the Avatar must have been known or described to the Firenation citizens as a threat for sometime. At the point of time at the end of the show, I agree that neither Ozai or Azula were in a position to be a threat to anyone but themselves. However things can change and faster than you think. The Royal Family had "conned" at least 3 generations of Firenation citizens into fighting an unending. All of a sudden, they started taking smart pills? Anyway, I only said it was a possibility not a probability. As for your world war 2 example, think about Japan which is begining to rewrite its history book to hide the attrocities and has a temple which honors war criminals which was visted frequently by its former Prime Minister. And fan fic, however well written, remains just that.
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kooties
Iroh
why can't it be canon T_T (also this icon is proof that Night pwns j00!)
Posts: 183
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Post by kooties on Jul 31, 2008 11:09:33 GMT -5
ok, who here wanted Ozai to die just because they wanted that 4 element beam to hit? I did . Anyways, I think for any bender, losing that gift is a fate worse than death.
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Azula The Legend
Momo
Love is like an eternal flame, always warm and will never go out...
Posts: 47
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Post by Azula The Legend on Aug 13, 2008 0:02:44 GMT -5
I just wanted the beam to hit because I LOVE EXPLOSIONS! But, at one point I did feel sorry for him, up until when he said: "Even with all the power in the universe..you are STILL WEAK!"
Then he attempts to kill Aang. -_- That's when I DIDN'T feel sorry for him.
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 18, 2008 14:35:53 GMT -5
Ok, I'm probably going to jump around a lot in this post, just to warn you guys, and I'm going to try and keep it very short. This means I might not be clear on my points, though I might come back and clarify later.
First I want to say that I think Ozai should have been killed. I get what you guys say about him having to live with his failure being worse than death, and I think that alone makes sense. But thinking about the whole situation, it seems death should have been the solution. Why? Because Ozai is still dangerous. Just because he doesn't have his bending doesn't mean he is powerless, and I don't like that message that the show gave. I thought it was ironic that Sokka and Suki, the two main non-benders, were making fun of Ozai after he got his bending taken away. They must be losers too since they can't bend!
But on to my main point. First remember Long Feng and Iroh. They were both locked up, but they had people who were still loyal to him. Meaning, I'm sure there are plenty of people in the fire nation who are loyal to Ozai. From the show they made it seem that most of the people opposed the war, but I doubt every single one of his followers didn't agree with him. The way I see it, it's possible he could still control people from the inside. A guard would bring his food, and then ask what Ozai wanted them to do. He could do that, and be able to not only break out, but gain more followers and create another problem. Actually that is a good idea for a fanfiction. You just can't keep someone like that alive.
The other thing is about everyone excusing Aang not killing him with him being a child and the fact that it goes against his beliefs. I know I've said this before and I'll say it again: It's not about Aang, it's about the world. Being the Avatar means doing what's best for the world in order to keep balance. It goes back to what Yangchen said. He can't hold on to his beliefs because it keeps him from doing his duty as the Avatar. And the fact that he's 12 I think shouldn't even be brought up. I don't feel the hero should have to be excused for not doing what he needed to do. He needed to mature in order to take the Avatar responsibility, which means he shouldn't have the "he's a little kid" excuse by the end of the series. He didn't have to give up anything when it came to defeating the Fire Lord. He didn't have to give up Katara or his beliefs or anything.
And honestly that's what it all comes down to. It's a kid's show, so I think finding a solution without killing the bad guy is understandable, but they way they did it was irritating. Aang didn't have to sacrifice anything, and he was completely selfish about the whole thing. All the past Avatars were telling him he needed to do what the world needed, not what he belived. But he got away with not killing him because of the cop-out of spirit-bending. The reason I call it a cop-out: it wasn't introduced until the finale. All the build-up about the Avatar state and the chakras goes straight down the toilet. That's why it seemed like a cop-out, because if they had gone with what they built up, Aang would have had to sacrifice his beliefs and do what he needed to for the world.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Aug 18, 2008 20:22:00 GMT -5
^^ Aang still needed the Avatar State to defeat Ozai.Killing Ozai would have been much easier and safer for him. Aang risked the corruption and destruction of his own spirit to be true to his convictions. "when statesmen forsake their own private conscience for the sake of their public duties . . . they lead their country by a short route to chaos." ( Robert Bolt in his play, "A man For All Seasons").
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 18, 2008 21:18:09 GMT -5
What I meant was all the build up of what he needed to do to be able to control the Avatar state was gone. He didn't have to give up Katara, he just got his scar button pressed, and somehow that triggered it. Another cop-out.
And as far as the risk goes, that's not a sacrifice and he didn't give anything up. It was a risk that was thrown in just to try and make it less of an easy-way-out in the show. They didn't build up the whole spirit-bending thing, or the turtle, or even just the idea of the time before the Avatar. It was all squished into the finale and ended up being the only thing that mattered for him to defeat Ozai. That's what I mean about the build-up going to waste.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Aug 18, 2008 22:39:46 GMT -5
^^The "giving up Katara" build up was exhausted in the season 2 finale so I dont think Id have want to see that again. I agree that the unblocking of Aang's chakras was very contrived but I dont agree that seeing Aang lose or give up something would have added anything crucial to the story. Willingness to sacrifice counts in my book. Whether Aang was wiling to kill Ozai after defeating him was never discussed before the last 4 episodes of the series and mentioned only at the end of the Southern Raiders episode so the explanation was going to seem rushed no matter what happened. I do agree that it would have been nice to have the lion turtle appear earlier in the series for some context as to why Aang sought his advice or why the lion turtle sought Aang to advice him.
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chrometatertot
penguin
I've got one blind reason for you to just walk away.
Posts: 23
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Post by chrometatertot on Aug 20, 2008 0:39:07 GMT -5
i dont thing anyone deserves what he got... to lose bending abilities? if aang did that to me i'd kill myself. to have tasted bending glory under the mighty influence of the comet and then have it taken away forever would be too much to bear.
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chrometatertot
penguin
I've got one blind reason for you to just walk away.
Posts: 23
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Post by chrometatertot on Aug 20, 2008 0:43:18 GMT -5
P.s. highjacking someones bending seems like total b.s. to me, they couldnt have him brutally kill him on a kids show i suppose and the wrote themselves into a corner and pulled chakra bending out of nowhere to fix it... i will allude to the ever famous DBZ series. its just like how they made broly too godly in the movie and made up the bullcrap mega one-shot uppercut that kills broly for no reason. i think chakra bending was a lazy solution they came up with to prevent full on in your face death.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Aug 20, 2008 1:59:23 GMT -5
^^If Ozai felt the same, he could always kill himself later on his own time and karma. Aang's duty as Avatar was to the world not to Ozai. If Aang could find a way to protect the world and still keep his aura pink, more power to him. Aang had already defeated Ozai in the Avatar State and could not pretend to kill him in self defense (a device frequently used in many more grown up shows).
I think the "spirit bending" opened a fresh perspective on the whole concept of element bending and how the real world intersects with the spirit world within the series. It lets on that there are aspects of the avatar universe that even the Avatar Spirit is not aware of or does not fully comprehend. Remember what happened in the Swamp.
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 20, 2008 9:05:47 GMT -5
chrometatertot you made a good point about the creators writing themselves into a corner, and that's why I felt it was a complete cop-out. If they had built up the not-killing-the-firelord thing and the bit about the turtle, it would have seemed to be planned from the beginning, but since nothing they built up even played into the take-down of Ozai, I believe they had to change it due to not being able to kill Ozai on a kid's show. Yet I guess it's ok to kill random soldiers and Jet and Zhao. But Ozai, nope he gets to live.
I'm not bothered by his fate not being a good enough punishment, because I think having his bending and power taken away is worse, but it's also worse for the world, the thing Aang's duty really is to. He did what he did because of his own beliefs, not what was better for the world. Like I said before, he probably still has people loyal to him, and are willing to rebel against Zuko and help him break out. Just because he can't bend doesn't mean he's copmletely harmless, and I don't like that message that they gave.
Because honestly, I never even got the feeling Ozai was a threat because of the firebending. He was with the comet because that gave their bending more power, but overall he was all about power over the world, and that meant commanding armies and gaining control. The point of destroying the world was so he would be in charge of everything. So he's extremely power-hungry, and it's not about being a powerful bender with him, it's about being the supreme ruler of the world. That's why taking his bending away, to me, didn't equal him no longer being a threat.
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Silver-Angel!
Meng
"Time is a great teacher. To bad it kills all of it's students."
Posts: 253
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Post by Silver-Angel! on Aug 20, 2008 21:25:56 GMT -5
WAY worse than death. As we all know. If I was in his situation I would just want to roll over and die. Not only have all his followers deserted him, but he has to deal with seeing the faces of people who used to be under him that now keep him alive? Its a horrible situation, mostly because its so humiliating and degrading. I don't think it would be possible for a person to have any in-tact pride in a situation like that. And after all his gloating of being the Phoenix King or whatever -- lord of the earth?! Wow, that's really gotta hurt. But as they say, the bigger they are the harder they fall. Ozai deserved it all anyways.
@ chrometatertot - I definetly do not agree. I think the whole removing bending was a genius idea, and I would bet that they actaully put thought into that. Its not really so unbelievable considering the powers of the Avatar, and the stipulations that have to be fulfilled to execute it. I mean he is the bridge of the spirit world, the balance in the world, and is the medium for generations of knowledge, so it makes sense. Not as pulled out of nowhere as you might think. It wasn't ever hinted before hand that he could do that, but that doesn't mean that it was made up at the last second. There is a right time to reveal things like that, and that just so happened to be the time to do it. Before-hand there was no need for anything like that, so why hint at it being able to be used? Besides, like I said, its WAY worse than death, and makes a whole lot more sense. It was really clever, and Ozai deserved every bit of it.
@ Scarlett Ember - I think that firelord Ozai was a threat because he was just that, a firelord. Why is he a threat if you remove his bending? He isn't. Especially if he's thrown in jail and will be crippled for the rest of his life. Everyone who followed him deserted him once he lost his powers, because people don't want to follow people who don't have real power. Sure to us he could be a threat, but if you think about it in our world power is completely different. For us its your mind, and your ability to lead. But in the Avatar world, its more like your skill in bending that people follow, not your nature or your ruler status. What I'm saying is what makes him a "supreme ruler of the world" is most definetly his bending. And without it he is not only not a firebender, but not a ruler either.
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Post by conspiracytheorist on Aug 21, 2008 15:06:54 GMT -5
What I don't get about the whole "fate worse than death" argument as a defense for the way in which Aang defeated Ozai is this: Aang was all about revenge being the wrong path (see "The Southern Raiders"). He wasn't actively looking to inflict the most possible pain on Ozai because of all that he had done to hurt the balance of the world - Aang just wanted to fulfill his duty and end the war.
I guarantee you that this wasn't his thought process:
"Well, taking away Ozai's bending seems like a more fitting punishment than killing him. I think I'll do that, it seems pretty poetic and all."
What went through his mind was actually the exact opposite. Killing Ozai was the one thing he would not do, and why is that? Because taking another person's life, to Aang, was unforgivable. DEATH was the worst fate that he could have given to the Fire Lord, but because of his conviction in the rightness of his cultural beliefs, he found another way to bring the war to an end (more like 'another way was dropped straight into his lap'... but that's another topic).
You guys should go see The Dark Knight. One of the big themes there was that death is always the worst possible fate for a man - I think it'll change your mind about this topic in general.
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