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Post by akako on Jul 28, 2008 22:47:33 GMT -5
^ A Fire Lord who lost his country the war they had been waging for a century and can't fire bend anymore??? I don't think so. The people of the Fire Nation, from what we've seen, are a very proud bunch. Ozai got his butt handed to him by a kid AND that same kid took away his fire bending. I don't see the public or the military putting stock in Ozai as he is now. Ozai was supposed to be the one who finished the war once and for all. When the comet arrived, he was at his most powerful. He was expected to defeat the Avatar and the remaining resistance, end the war and rule the world... and he lost.
Not a lot of people are gonna put faith in a guy like that. He had his chance and he blew it.
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 28, 2008 23:04:54 GMT -5
^^ And they would feel differently if the same kid had killed him because...?
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ƒelinoel
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Post by ƒelinoel on Jul 28, 2008 23:22:54 GMT -5
^^ I doubt it. He wasnt prepared to take on his own son without firebending. I have a feeling he's relied on it a bit too much over the years for him to make an effective solider without it. His son was carrying weapons then, Zuko had the advantage, give Ozai a weapon and he might have fought back
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 28, 2008 23:51:12 GMT -5
^^ If he was that good, he could have tried to disarm his son or ensured that he was armed before waving his guards away. He already suspected Zuko had a reason for waiting until the eclipse to "tell the truth".
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Post by akako on Jul 28, 2008 23:55:30 GMT -5
^ Like I said before, killing Ozai would have made him a 'hero' to people in the Fire Nation. Check out their propaganda! NO WAY there wouldn't have been higher ups (Generals, Governors and the like) that wouldn't have used this to capitalize on why they wouldn't want Zuko as the new Fire Lord. When Fire Nation citizens and military DO resist (and there will be some) it will be considerably less compared to what would it would have been if Ozai had died. Instead of the entire Fire Nation thinking, "OMG! THE AVATAR KILLED OZAI, OUR BELOVED RULER! HE MUST HAVE CHEATED!!! TRAITOR ZUKO HELPED THE AVATAR KILL HIS OWN FATHER!!! WE WILL RESIST!!! RAAAAGGGEEE!!!!! ' Many Fire Nation people will be thinking, 'OMG! Fire Lord Ozai LOST US THE WAR?! The Avatar TOOK AWAY HIS FIRE BENDING?! HE'S IN PRISON NOW??? He's just a weak and pathetic husk of what he once was?! We can't have a Fire Lord like THAT!' Seriously, given the militant feel of Fire Nation culture, VERY few people, if any, are going to be jumping on the band wagon to bust Ozai out of prison and put him back on the throne. I can't see high ranking officials in the military backing him or the public putting much faith in him. They would want and expect a powerful leader. In the end, Ozai didn't deliver. He let his entire country down by losing to the Avatar and having his bending stripped from him. No chance that the public at large will want him after THAT massive failure. Zuko, on the other hand, DID help end the war and was aided so by Aang. He even battled his prodigy sister on equal footing and given that Azula cheated by striking out at a third party (Katara), Zuko won by default. That he did this proves him a powerful bender and shows that he cares about his nation and it's people. There will be people who will resist this change, but I'm more than willing to be that more people will give Zuko a chance. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Fire Nation was sick of the war and just wanted it over, if for nothing else, than for their loved ones in the army to return home.
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ƒelinoel
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Post by ƒelinoel on Jul 29, 2008 0:30:00 GMT -5
^^ If he was that good, he could have tried to disarm his son or ensured that he was armed before waving his guards away. He already suspected Zuko had a reason for waiting until the eclipse to "tell the truth". Who said he was "that good"? I only said he would make a good soldier
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 29, 2008 0:50:22 GMT -5
akako, most of the arguments that you put forward if Ozai had been killed apply equally for an imprisoned Ozai as well. If you cant see them busting out Ozai to be their leader, how about Azula? Is it so hard to imagine Ozai or Azula sob storying how Ozai had already appointed Azula as Firelord and that Zuko betrayed his nation to wronglully claim the throne by aiding Aang? He had already been banished for 3 years. Who's to say Zuko wasnt helping Aang all along in dashing what should have been the Firenation's finest hour? Since the most of the Firenation didt view either battles, its hard to predict what version of events they will evetually hear. Remember the Great Divide episode? How "noble Wei Jin" supposedly sentenced to twenty long years in prison? Whether you want to argue that the Firenation is sick of war or raring for a fight would equally apply whether or not Ozai had been killed.
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 29, 2008 0:54:42 GMT -5
^^ If he was that good, he could have tried to disarm his son or ensured that he was armed before waving his guards away. He already suspected Zuko had a reason for waiting until the eclipse to "tell the truth". Who said he was "that good"? I only said he would make a good soldier Given the circumstances, he didnt display the instincts of a good soldier. I know that Ozai has a body Admirality craves but Iroh would not have been caught that flat footed. EDIT: Well, maybe Iroh but not Piandao. Theres nothing in the series to suggest that Ozai can use a weapon besides firebending.
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ƒelinoel
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Post by ƒelinoel on Jul 29, 2008 3:05:09 GMT -5
Who said he was "that good"? I only said he would make a good soldier Given the circumstances, he didnt display the instincts of a good soldier. I know that Ozai has a body Admirality craves but Iroh would not have been caught that flat footed. EDIT: Well, maybe Iroh but not Piandao. Theres nothing in the series to suggest that Ozai can use a weapon besides firebending. Hmmm good point, but Zuko uses firebending to produce fire sword-like objects, maybe Ozai practiced that skill and would be able to substitute it for metal sword-like objects?
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 29, 2008 3:17:19 GMT -5
^^ I suppose that is possibility. It could also be that Zuko's use of fire daggers is unique to him and developed as a result of Zuko's use of normal daggers since Iroh gave him one as a child.
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ƒelinoel
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Post by ƒelinoel on Jul 29, 2008 3:49:59 GMT -5
^^ I suppose that is possibility. It could also be that Zuko's use of creating fire daggers is unique to him and developed as a result of Zuko's use of normal daggers since Iroh gave him one as a child. That is also a possibility
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Post by akako on Jul 30, 2008 11:08:10 GMT -5
akako, most of the arguments that you put forward if Ozai had been killed apply equally for an imprisoned Ozai as well. If you cant see them busting out Ozai to be their leader, how about Azula? Is it so hard to imagine Ozai or Azula sob storying how Ozai had already appointed Azula as Firelord and that Zuko betrayed his nation to wronglully claim the throne by aiding Aang? He had already been banished for 3 years. Who's to say Zuko wasnt helping Aang all along in dashing what should have been the Firenation's finest hour? Since the most of the Firenation didt view either battles, its hard to predict what version of events they will evetually hear. Remember the Great Divide episode? How "noble Wei Jin" supposedly sentenced to twenty long years in prison? Whether you want to argue that the Firenation is sick of war or raring for a fight would equally apply whether or not Ozai had been killed. To your first point: Guys who fail big time don't get statues built in their honor. Ozai, for all intents and purposes, is a failure to the extreme. Remember what happened with Iroh and Ba Sing Se? Even though he lost his son, many people, publicly and military, viewed the General's backing off on the siege his biggest failure. He lost, I'm sure, a lot of the confidence and respect of many officials in public, military and government. While it's obvious he still had enough esteem and respect from people (he is the Dragon of the West and a royal), it is not as it was before Ba Sing Se. However, this failure at Ba Sing Se didn't cost them the war. Ozai on the day of the comet, at his most powerful and losing to the Avatar, DID cost them the war. When the leader of your nation has let you down in such a big way in a country like the Fire Nation, chances are most people will not retain that same level of confidence in that leader. As far as Azula: there were witnesses to her downward spiral; her servants, the Imperial Fire Benders, the Dai Li agents, Lo and Li and the Fire Sages all witnessed a drastic change in her behavior. While I'm sure they were accustomed to her demanding ways, she was banishing people left, right and sideways. She banished that one poor girl for accidentally leaving a pit in a cherry. Then she booted the Dai Li from her court for taking five minutes to get to the throne room. When it was all over, Azula had banished everyone on the palace for it would seem nothing. She had gone insane and there were plenty of people around to see this. The Fire Sages also (very likely from a safe vantage point) witnessed the Agni Kai between Zuko and Azula and would have seen Azula cheat (I don't think you're allowed to attack observers) and Zuko save Katara's life. How long do you think it's going to take for that to get out to the public and can you really see the people accepting someone who has been observed to be mentally unstable as their Fire Lord? Who knows what she would have done next. Again, there were witnesses to Aang and Ozai's battle, not just Sokka, Suki and Toph (though since she's blind, I'm not sure that counts). There were Fire nation soldiers who saw what happened from their airships (you can see them on top of that blimp in that one shot after Aang beat Ozai). There had to have been soldiers watching what was going on. Which means they also saw Aang refrain from killing Ozai, then Ozai take a cheap shot when Aang's back was turned and then Aang bind Ozai and take away his bending. Two things the story of Wei Gin and Gin Wei didn't seem to have were; enough credible witnesses to the fact (it all seemed to be hearsay) and enough evidence to prove there was ever a crime committed. In this case, there were BOTH. Plenty of soldiers saw the atrocities committed by their nation and it's only a matter of time before many of them start speaking out. The evidence of abuse and destruction by the Fire Nation upon the other nations is surmountable and in time, will come to light. Such a thing will be hard for many people of the Fire Nation to come to grips with; many will flat-out deny it. But as more and more evidence comes to light, it will be harder and harder to deny and the Fire Nation public will be forced to deal with the consequences of the damage they have wrought upon the world.
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 30, 2008 17:31:24 GMT -5
^^ My point was that Ozai's failure would arguably be evident regardless of whether he lived or he died. It would be interesting to wonder about the reason Avatar Roku's statue was put up considering that he died in the emnity of the Firelord who also made it the business of the Firenation to hunt down the next Avatar for the next hundred years but thats a separate matter. I take issue with your characterisation of Iroh's reputation. The views of Ozai's favourite princess and those Ozai favoured with ridiculously fast advancement (Zhao went from Captain to Admiral in Zuko's time and arguably within 3 years) may not be as widely held as presumed as well as obviously biased. This matter was discussed to some extent in the threads on this forum about who was going to be the next Firelord after Ozai.
The Royal Family are obviously masters of propoganda. They have sustained a 100 year war starting with the destruction of a a people with no standing army and all sorts of terrible atrocities and failures through the decades. Both Ozai and Azula are proven masters at manipulating people and it isnt too difficult to see how they could manipulate events in the minds of enough people. Honestly, my impression of the Firenation is that of people used to taking orders and I imagine this would be especially the case for anyone working directly for the Royal Family. You would be surprised how often a servant will return to a cruel master. The story of Wei Gin and Gin Wei is instructive because originally there must have been all sorts of witnesses to the events described. It shows that the way people remember things can be manipulated. It isnt too difficult to think of real world examples of leaders manipulating news events inspite of widely available news resources which allows people to "see for themselves" the events as they take place. Even with millions of television "witnesses", events in the news can still be potrayed in a certain way to forward a certain political agenda. Given time, the way an event is remembered to have occurred can be changed altogether. There are countless real world examples of this. What more in a world with more easily manipulated information resources? Im not saying for a fact that Azula and Ozai will definitely succeed if they tried to regain control. All Im saying is that it could happen.
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Post by jillrg on Jul 30, 2008 18:20:37 GMT -5
There's been a HUGE debate going on at TV Tropes about this, too, and I just don't get it: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MindRapeDiscussionHow can anybody even say the name for this technique ("Soubending" or "Spiritbending") without realizing how incredibly violating it is?! Katara was apalled at the idea of "reaching inside someone and controlling them," but what did Aang do? Reach inside someone and rip out a part of his soul! Like this fic excellently points out, The Avatar calls this mercy?www.fanfiction.net/s/4414322/1/Cruelty
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 30, 2008 19:11:43 GMT -5
^^ I suppose the counter-argument is that fire-bending was too dangerous to be in the hands of Ozai and had to be removed. Aang's first duty as Avatar was to the world, not Ozai. This duty necessitated him either killing Ozai or removing his bending. It was not a responsibility he took lightly or a power that he relished. There is also a possibility however slim and unlikely that Ozai may one day redeem himself before he dies and, if so, he may have reason to thank Aang for his descision. EDIT: In any case, it makes Admirality happy. It also ensures that he cant burn her- physically, at least. ;D
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