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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Jul 8, 2007 17:59:37 GMT -5
That's my exact point. Opposing Azula would make things very bad for herself and family later on. I don't think the circumstances will change either. For that much, I agree.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jul 9, 2007 7:42:40 GMT -5
OK so your gist is you don't think Mai will care enough about Zuko to side with him when the going gets rough. So then, what is the point of introducing her crush in the first place, if it doesn't ultimately have any influence on her allegiance?
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Jul 9, 2007 10:03:32 GMT -5
Hm...I would assume to give her some depth. xD Jokes aside, it may have some influence on her allegiance, but it doesn't ultimately mean she's going to side with Zuko. However, I will admit that it is very possible. But Azula is very intimidating and just because Mai said "Azula can throw all the lightning bolts she wants at me, I'm not going" (or something along those lines) doesn't mean she truly meant it. She may have, but I don't think she did.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jul 9, 2007 11:42:38 GMT -5
Well, I see the crush as like the gun shown in the first act that has to be fired in the third (somebody made a cool analogy about that regarding Zuko's lightening redirection, and I think it sort of fits this as well). It has to be significant, and the only way I can think of it being significant is if Mai has her loyalty tested again. She could do the same thing, side with Azula and stay safe, but that would make her crush irrelevent--the gun is never fired.
If she does the same thing as before---where's the drama, the surprise, the unexpected turnaround? I just have a strong hunch that we're being lead to believe Mai would choose self-preservation so that when she doesn't it would be a dramatic surprise.
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Post by Holierthanthou on Jul 11, 2007 19:18:43 GMT -5
Well, I see the crush as like the gun shown in the first act that has to be fired in the third (somebody made a cool analogy about that regarding Zuko's lightening redirection, and I think it sort of fits this as well). It has to be significant, and the only way I can think of it being significant is if Mai has her loyalty tested again. She could do the same thing, side with Azula and stay safe, but that would make her crush irrelevent--the gun is never fired. If she does the same thing as before---where's the drama, the surprise, the unexpected turnaround? I just have a strong hunch that we're being lead to believe Mai would choose self-preservation so that when she doesn't it would be a dramatic surprise. That does sound plausible. And we do love our drama. Your reference to lightning redirection got me thinking, do you think Mai could quell the inner turmoil that's keeping him from making lightning? Maybe his problem is he's too obsessed with finding his honor and he can't focus on what's important.
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Jul 11, 2007 19:39:12 GMT -5
Personally, I don't think Mai, or any possible love interest for that matter, can help Zuko with his inner turmoil. Iroh told Zuko the truth and I think that's about as much a person can do for helping.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Jul 12, 2007 1:40:24 GMT -5
I think people vastly underestimate the power of peer companionship when they constantly bring up what Iroh could and could not do for Zuko as a model for what anyone else possibly could.
A girlfriend is a different thing entirely from an uncle. They offer different emotional benefits. The relationships are not equal and as such what his uncle was able to do for him in any particular situation is not the final word with regard to what Mai might be able to do.
The other a friend of mine and I were discussing the possible mitigating effects that Mai's calm could have on Zuko's over-emotionalness and we chanced into a plotbunny where Mai helps Zuko learn to control his emotions so that he can lightningbend. We were subsequently incoherent for the better part of the day?
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Post by gambitia on Jul 12, 2007 2:03:16 GMT -5
If she does the same thing as before---where's the drama, the surprise, the unexpected turnaround? I just have a strong hunch that we're being lead to believe Mai would choose self-preservation so that when she doesn't it would be a dramatic surprise. There could still be drama and good storytelling if Mai choose her loyalty/fear of Azula instead of her love of Zuko (Um, second season finale, anyone? Zuko never "fired his gun," but d*mn was it powerful.) If everything hinged on Mai's choice and she chose against what everyone thought she would choose, it would be powerful. Mai's crush is going to be important, no matter what, or it wouldn't be there. What isn't clear is how it will affect everything.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jul 12, 2007 5:56:17 GMT -5
^^Mai not siding with Zuko would make her whole character pointless. I mean, she and Ty Lee are kinda superfluous if you think about it; Azula never uses them for the really important fights. I think if Mai's crush doesn't ultimately lead to her changing allegiance it's all been a waste of time, effort, paper and celluloid on the creators' part. And somehow, I think they are smarter than that.
As for Zuko in Cod, he did fire his gun, people had just ignored the gun because they took for granted that because he was getting less jerky and wasn't friendly with Azula he was going to "turn good" join the Gaang and be Aang's buddy and sweep Katara off her feet.
But that gun was there all along in plain sight in the way he was chafing with his Uncle and with living in BSS, still obsessing about capturing the Avatar and regaining his honor. It should have been plain up until the "happy Zuko" bit, which probably was there just to throw the audience off.
The unexpected factor was Azula giving him another chance, a way to "redeem" himself. Did anyone see that coming? I'm not sure because I only got involved in the fandom after the 2nd season finale, but I doubt it. A lot of the fandom still doesn't see it.
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Post by Holierthanthou on Jul 12, 2007 9:57:34 GMT -5
^^Mai not siding with Zuko would make her whole character pointless. I mean, she and Ty Lee are kinda superfluous if you think about it; Azula never uses them for the really important fights. I think if Mai's crush doesn't ultimately lead to her changing allegiance it's all been a waste of time, effort, paper and celluloid on the creators' part. And somehow, I think they are smarter than that. As for Zuko in Cod, he did fire his gun, people had just ignored the gun because they took for granted that because he was getting less jerky and wasn't friendly with Azula he was going to "turn good" join the Gaang and be Aang's buddy and sweep Katara off her feet. But that gun was there all along in plain sight in the way he was chafing with his Uncle and with living in BSS, still obsessing about capturing the Avatar and regaining his honor. It should have been plain up until the "happy Zuko" bit, which probably was there just to throw the audience off. The unexpected factor was Azula giving him another chance, a way to "redeem" himself. Did anyone see that coming? I'm not sure because I only got involved in the fandom after the 2nd season finale, but I doubt it. A lot of the fandom still doesn't see it. Wow, you're right. People were so blinded by what the wanted to come from Zuko's change over S2 (Stop obsessing with the Avatar, joining the Gaang, Zutara) that they couldn't see that it wasn't permanent. In fact, Azula's proof that different people could have different affects on Zuko. It was Iroh the entire season was saying Zuko would side with, but Azula plays off his honor and poor Zuko's in her clutches again.
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LiveInThaskyE
The Avatars
The Honorary Zutarian
Black God
Posts: 12,182
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Post by LiveInThaskyE on Jul 12, 2007 17:15:07 GMT -5
^^Mai not siding with Zuko would make her whole character pointless. I mean, she and Ty Lee are kinda superfluous if you think about it; Azula never uses them for the really important fights. I think if Mai's crush doesn't ultimately lead to her changing allegiance it's all been a waste of time, effort, paper and celluloid on the creators' part. And somehow, I think they are smarter than that. As for Zuko in Cod, he did fire his gun, people had just ignored the gun because they took for granted that because he was getting less jerky and wasn't friendly with Azula he was going to "turn good" join the Gaang and be Aang's buddy and sweep Katara off her feet. But that gun was there all along in plain sight in the way he was chafing with his Uncle and with living in BSS, still obsessing about capturing the Avatar and regaining his honor. It should have been plain up until the "happy Zuko" bit, which probably was there just to throw the audience off. The unexpected factor was Azula giving him another chance, a way to "redeem" himself. Did anyone see that coming? I'm not sure because I only got involved in the fandom after the 2nd season finale, but I doubt it. A lot of the fandom still doesn't see it. Wow, you're right. People were so blinded by what the wanted to come from Zuko's change over S2 (Stop obsessing with the Avatar, joining the Gaang, Zutara) that they couldn't see that it wasn't permanent. In fact, Azula's proof that different people could have different affects on Zuko. It was Iroh the entire season was saying Zuko would side with, but Azula plays off his honor and poor Zuko's in her clutches again. Yea,she knows his weakness,but I'm sure he will eventually let that go completely and focus on better things.......like that pretty little knife thrower he's known since childhood......
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Post by aangryjerk on Jul 12, 2007 22:57:29 GMT -5
Wow, you're right. People were so blinded by what the wanted to come from Zuko's change over S2 (Stop obsessing with the Avatar, joining the Gaang, Zutara) that they couldn't see that it wasn't permanent. In fact, Azula's proof that different people could have different affects on Zuko. It was Iroh the entire season was saying Zuko would side with, but Azula plays off his honor and poor Zuko's in her clutches again. I wouldn't say that it wasn't permanent. He did grow and learn a lot, and he's not going back to being the jerk he was in early S1. I think the S2 development was meant to show Zuko maturing, but he's still and will always be Fire Nation to the core. I think it's possible for him to be a good guy and Fire Nation at the same time. That's one reason why I argue with people who say he's going to join the Gaang.
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TML
Happy Festival Mask
Thee Vampirate
Even if I disappear, I want to always be in your heart
Posts: 3,889
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Post by TML on Jul 12, 2007 23:37:14 GMT -5
MAIKO PEOPLEZ!!!
Sorry, to get off topic...Wait, the topic does happen to be Maiko.
LOL.... what I'm about to say might possibly count as a spoiler...
yeah, spoiler......
I've heard that MAIKO is going to get a chance in the 3rd SEASON!!! XD I'm soo happy for the Maiko's!!!
Umm.....So where's the rum? *happens to be a pirate*
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Post by gambitia on Jul 13, 2007 10:27:35 GMT -5
^^Mai not siding with Zuko would make her whole character pointless. I mean, she and Ty Lee are kinda superfluous if you think about it; Azula never uses them for the really important fights. I think if Mai's crush doesn't ultimately lead to her changing allegiance it's all been a waste of time, effort, paper and celluloid on the creators' part. And somehow, I think they are smarter than that. Mai's character will become more important in S3. Right now, she's not particularly important, but as the plot developes in S3, she could become important entirely in her own right (not simply because she's in lurve with Zuzu). We don't know how Azula and her group's storylines will develop in S3. Zuko could end up in a situation where his life or his freedom depended on Mai helping him. If Mai doesn't, it could have a dramatic effect on the storyline. I was referring to a different gun. The one shown in "The Blue Spirit" ("do you think we could have been friends?"), and late during the BSS arc where Uncle was talking about how Zuko would be a beautiful prince who'd choose good and stuff. Heck, I wanted Zuko to join Azula, and I was still surprised (I was sure once he and Katara started getting all buddy-buddy, he wasn't going to choose Azula. And then he did ) Well, Azula's going to tell Zuko what he wants to hear in order to get him to trust her. What Zuko wants is redemption; of course she'll offer it. What isn't clear is whether her redemption is genuine or not.
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Post by Holierthanthou on Jul 13, 2007 10:45:07 GMT -5
Wow, you're right. People were so blinded by what the wanted to come from Zuko's change over S2 (Stop obsessing with the Avatar, joining the Gaang, Zutara) that they couldn't see that it wasn't permanent. In fact, Azula's proof that different people could have different affects on Zuko. It was Iroh the entire season was saying Zuko would side with, but Azula plays off his honor and poor Zuko's in her clutches again. I wouldn't say that it wasn't permanent. He did grow and learn a lot, and he's not going back to being the jerk he was in early S1. I think the S2 development was meant to show Zuko maturing, but he's still and will always be Fire Nation to the core. I think it's possible for him to be a good guy and Fire Nation at the same time. That's one reason why I argue with people who say he's going to join the Gaang. Well, I didn't really mean it that way. He's obviously grown and is essentially "good" now, but I was just saying people thought he had gone beyond his S1 tendencies. He did try to help Azula kill the Gaang. Regardless of how he felt about his choice later, he still made that choice. Personally, I don't like the idea of Zuko joining the Gaang. It offers too many cliches. I wanted it at first, but in the end it made the S2 finale so much better.
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