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Post by catalyst283 on Dec 20, 2007 22:59:03 GMT -5
You didn't read the rest of my post again, zenjamin. -_- Ahhh, you've said it much better than I ever could. XD EXACTLY. Seriously, there are multiple relationships with "the basic core" as other relationships....but it is what makes them different that makes them NOT cliche; what makes them so loveable and why people ship them and like the two characters together. EDIT: Zenjamin, please stop simplifying things. PLZ.DIFFERENT. Yet SIMILAR. But DIFFERENT. NOT the same. Nowhere did I say they were the SAME; or that the situation was the SAME; in fact, again, I said the situation were DIFFERENT. Read my whole post, please. And I was talking about how were simplifying Zutara, not Kataang, if you're confused. You kept presenting all these examples how Zutara is cliche because it is like all these other relationships....yet you ignored the points that Kataang can be similar to other relationships as well. But yet both are DIFFERENT from the other relationships because they are in different situations and have different lives. I was just trying to get you away from that whole "cliche plot device" thing, because THAT is simplifying Zutara. EDIT: And yea, I wasn't even replying to that post. 0_o Like kai said, I posted [that quote] before I saw you edit that post; I was talking about a different post, where you were simplifying Zutara to "a cliche plot device" as I've said.... You missed this whole part of the quote: How is that simplifying things? EDITEDIT: And you never replied to this. EDIT: yes i have read Pride and Prejudice. and i never said that one party even HAD to heal the other, only that it was verry often used in the whole "two people who seem verry different come to... bla, bla bla" plot device. however, it could be seen in Pride and Prejudice. was either one too prideful or Prejudice after the interaction? no they both were able to see how wrong they had been... it doesnt have to be a physical healing, more ... separate = Fed up. together = Fixed. Again, besides their wealth, Darcy and Elizabeth were not so different at all. Both were passionate, hot-headed and stubborn. Tell me how they were different besides their wealth. Because besides that they were not at all "two very different people". And when did being healed become such a bad thing? And why does it seem that nobody thinks it is alright for the opposite relationship to have "healing", yet their own has just as much if not more? I mean, you say that Zutara is all about "healing" and everything....and yet, we have Kataang with Katara healing Aang; she saved his life after all...and she's helped him to see many other things....how is that such a bad thing?
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kaibasgirl
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Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 20, 2007 22:59:43 GMT -5
ROFL! Omg, yiceman, your post pwned all! I'm giving you karma for that! ^^ why do I get the feeling that you are just going to go with the "they started out as friends" generalization that Paraiba Ocean mentioned and forget all the deph that i mentioned? thats a shocker. Ok, as ive said before, Kataang is MUCH more then that. If the only thing kataang was, was two friends who start to fall for eachother... then i would agree with you. but it only took 4(?) episodes to move way beyond that and into the much deeper elements i mentioned above... (1 for destiny) and was Ron macking on katara in the very first episode? was Kim brought to Ron by verry strange circumstances? was she waiting for someone just like ron? did she shower him with admiration right away? ya, i dont think Aang/Katara has EVER been like Kim/Ron after this, you responded with: 0_o So i get on your case for simplifying kataang into "two friends who become more", and start to point out all the reasons that kataang is deep and has deviated from that mold in a unique way ... and you respond by telling ME to not simplify things? I'm pretty sure catalyst made her post before you went back and edited yours, so she didn't see what you added on. And, no, Aang has crushed on Katara since day 1. First episode. first time he opened his eyes. What scene did they show when he was unlocking the fourth chakra? The one where she finds him in the iceberg. And Katara only started looking at him in a romantic light because it was 'predicted'. That seems like a pretty shallow silly reason to do so. EDIT: whoops, sorry cat, you already responded ^^;
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Post by psylum on Dec 20, 2007 23:36:51 GMT -5
The only thing I'll say about the prediction is that it was like taking a compatibility test and realizing your best friend matches perfectly.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 23:42:11 GMT -5
^That's really great and warm and fuzzy and all...but it's just not compelling to watch to myself and others. I don't want two perfectly compatible people who shine in their awesome bondiness of perfection. I want entertainment.
Where is the witty banter between Aang and Katara? Where are the LASTING ups and downs? Where are the dramatic events that take their interaction in an entirely new direction? (I mean, they kissed...but they don't act different!)So again, Psylum...that's almost exactly why the ship doesn't do it for me. I just don't get that warm feeling in my belly you guys seem to by perfect compatibility. Perfect compatibility is boring.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
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Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 20, 2007 23:43:35 GMT -5
no, it was some wizened old lady telling you your going to marry some powerful person, and then your brother making a random comment about best friend being a powerful person.
If Sokka hadn't made that comment, or Aunt Wu hadn't made that prediction, would Katara had ever started thinking of Aang in a romantic sense? It's probable, but that was the catalyst that set the whole Kataang romance into motion.
off topic, the combatibility test idea sounds like a good fanfic idea, you should write it up psylum ^^
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Post by psylum on Dec 20, 2007 23:57:10 GMT -5
no, it was some wizened old lady telling you your going to marry some powerful person, and then your brother making a random comment about best friend being a powerful person. If Sokka hadn't made that comment, or Aunt Wu hadn't made that prediction, would Katara had ever started thinking of Aang in a romantic sense? It's probable, but that was the catalyst that set the whole Kataang romance into motion. off topic, the combatibility test idea sounds like a good fanfic idea, you should write it up psylum ^^ Again this is why I don't like the fortune teller. there's going to be a lot of people saying that she only thinks she loves him because of the prediction even though the show has done a good job of showing otherwise. Thought I still stand by my Aunt Wu=online compatibility test analogy. Besides, some people are just oblivious and need a little nudge to see what's in front of them.
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Post by marvel26 on Dec 21, 2007 0:38:51 GMT -5
I wrote a long post on what I perceived to be the negatives of Kataang.
Can't remember for the life of me, where I put it though. I think it was in the old Taang thread.
Charlie Brown has a megalomaniac to beat. He can't do it while worrying about his 'Forever' girl. Which I think is a selfish reason to win the war.
"I'm doing it for you."
Oh and I suppose the rest of the world can just go straight to hell.
Very Avatar.
What if Katara dies?
"Argh! Aang angry! Aang go into Avatar state! Aang smash!"
This is good. Just point him in the direction of Ozai and you're all set.
"Okay Aang. You did it. Ozai's dead. You can stop now."
"Aang crush puny humans!"
This is...not so good.
Point being, the boy might go nuts or worse harbor so much hate that he'll become the next threat to world safety.
"The world took Katara away. The world is wrong. As Avatar I have to right the wrongs."
Or something along those lines.
Keep in mind, Aang still has child like tendencies, ie shirking responsiblities to go play as seen in the latest episode. So nursing an over sized grudge isn't that far fetched.
Though this might happen if Katara dies...
"Aang! What are you doing?! Get up!"
"What's the point? What's the point? It's all over."
And back in the Fire Palace, Ozai celebrates.
This is not a shot at Katara's character, but she does dominate a huge part of the boy's life, though unintentionally.
He hangs on her every word, disobeying only if he finds it fun to do so, ie scamming with Toph and Sokka. In other words, acting just like any other kid thumbing his nose at an authority figure.
He has expressed rebellious tendencies, once again an example can be found in the latest episode. She tells him to park his butt down and talk about their plans, which is a serious matter, and he expresses disapproval while trying to change the subject and get out of it.
If Katara ever corrects him on his feelings for her. I want to see that scene. Just to see if my thoughts are justified. Just to see if the world's last hope is nothing more than a scared lost child crying out for mommy.
I want to see him rage against HER. Citing all the things she's done for him. All the things he thought meant she loved him. All the things he's done for her. Why can't they be together? Stuff like that.
Once again Katara's not totally at fault here. It's her nature to love and comfort. Aang may have just taken things at face value. And taken things far out of context.
I'm not saying that this pairing is a bad one. No, it's a good one. Just not right now.
Can love bloom on a battle field?
Tell me later when you survive.
And some one get Aang a ticket on the maturity train. Dealing with confusing emotions is one thing, but he's going to have to defeat a ruthless warlord. He will have to kill Ozai. I don't think Ozai's going to roll over and surrender.
Baldy's going to have to get used to killing.
Somehow I think Katara might actually help in that department. She's willing to kill the Fire Lord's spawn, so I'm sure she'd give Aang a quick speech,
"You can do it, Aang! Cut his freakin' head off!"
And have you noticed he never questions or sees any negative sides of her? It's like he's got Katara-goggles on. Similar to beer goggles, except with these on, Katara can do no wrong.
And that's a scary thought.
Aang might become nothing more than a weapon. And Katara's pulling the trigger. Neither side would feel about it that way. But it'd be pretty obvious.
Which might lead to further disputes,
"The Avatar is biased!"
"The Water Tribes are going to use the Avatar to invade the rest of the world!"
"You call this Balance!?"
Uprisings and general bad stuff happens. But that's going a little too deep into the realm of over reaction.
On a comedic note, if Aang stays with Katara...he'd have to suffer Water Tribe cuisine for the rest of his chrome domed life.
And now Zutara.
Ah yes, the good girl falling for the bad boy turned good.
Cliche?
Yes.
Does happen in real life?
Yes.
Is it possible in the show?
Yes again. But given the time constraints maybe not. Maybe they'd part on mutual understanding and grudging friendship.
"If I ever see a Fire Nation flag near the poles, I swear I'll hunt you down and end your family line."
"Likewise, if any of your water folk cause any trouble, I'll increase steel production, polluting the air and tear a hole in the sky above your very heads. I hope you like cancer."
"Just so we're clear....friend."
"Just so we're clear....buddy."
Advantages of Zutara?
I see none.
Why?
I don't care.
My primary concern is the war.
Not their soap opera-esque love lives.
Does Zutara affect the on going war?
Not really.
Zuko's teaching Aang firebending. He'd do that even if he wasn't romantically inclined towards Katara. Not to say that he is.
Zuko's doing this for his family name's sake. At least on Roku's side. He's got mistakes to clean up.
Does Zutara help in that?
It might, but it's not needed in this case.
Again like Kataang, this is more of an Aftermath relationship. Let's wait for the dust to settle and the blood to stop flowing.
Maybe some might see their friendship as a sign of peace.
"See? Fire and Water can get along. Maybe there's hope yet."
Like wise, Kataang, after the war, may come to fruition. Now that the threat is over, everyone will have time to sit, think and sort through their emotional baggage.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 21, 2007 1:14:34 GMT -5
wow marvel... umm, that wasnt really very... coherent. whatever, rambling is fine i suppose, and i see what side of the fence your on... /shrug
anyways, Ive listed many ways in which I belive M&B have tried to portray kataang. and some people will always see it in a different light "well, i dont see X, I see Y."
the show has put all the facts in front of you, you can see them how you want, and some people's mind will never be changed.
just so long as people stop portraying kataang as shallow, because M&B have intended to portray it as anything but shallow or a cliche. and i Personally saw that before i ever joined the fandom... disagree with all the depth that kataang has to offer if you want, but respect that it is there for a reason.
the effect of the fandom is too prevalent in this thread. bye.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Dec 21, 2007 1:22:19 GMT -5
Well, marvel, if you're basing romance entirely on how beneficial it is to the war, you'll be out of luck. Romance is just another aspect of telling a story. One that, while maybe not have direct effects on the major plot, can bring more to the characters and the story.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
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Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 21, 2007 1:28:36 GMT -5
But not when it holds the characters back.
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Post by Amira on Dec 21, 2007 1:37:34 GMT -5
But it depends on what one thinks holds the characters back or if they are even being held back.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
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Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 21, 2007 1:43:20 GMT -5
Hi Amira, haven't seen you here in ages ^^ I hope your finals for your master's went well.
um, anyway, I think marvel's post pretty much said it all.
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pg15
Avatar Roku
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Post by pg15 on Dec 21, 2007 1:44:46 GMT -5
Gosh, I hope it didn't, otherwise this series would be nothing but war war war, with none of the heart and humor that made it stand out. Yikes.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 21, 2007 1:48:47 GMT -5
LOL. That's true. XD
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Post by Amira on Dec 21, 2007 1:49:02 GMT -5
Hi Amira, haven't seen you here in ages ^^ I hope your finals for your master's went well. um, anyway, I think marvel's post pretty much said it all. Well that's one opinion. I personally am of the mind that Aang is not stifled by Katara. I don't need to see him stand up to her or whatever else in order to make their relationship interesting or make Aang a better character. Their relationship is interesting enough and Aang is great the way he is and how he's been presented. Part of the charm of Kataang is that we've gotten to watch them grow to the point of love. We've seen Aang's crush evolve into love. We've seen Katara start to respond with similar feelings after a time. It's a journey for both of them. While some people might find it boring or predictable or dull or whatever else, I find it a charming and wonderful addition to Avatar. It can't all be war and strife. It can't all be depressing and fighting. It is also about these kids growing up and discovering things about themselves. Kataang only adds to the greatness of the story.
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