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Post by mahatista on Dec 20, 2007 21:21:51 GMT -5
Well, I guess I should say the term 'cliche' when applied to A:tLA is a cliche. I wholeheartedly agree with myself on that. --- BTW: Titanic and Romeo and Juliet fall under the hero/heroine archetype. I have never encountered any of the fictionalizations of Pocahontas but the historical figures of John Smith and Pocahontas didn't have a romantic relationship, so that doesn't fit for me either.
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Post by catalyst283 on Dec 20, 2007 21:27:59 GMT -5
however, zutara has still not moved outside of the outlined plot device i outlined. How? Just because it's not the same type of relationship as Kataang does not mean that it has "not moved outside of the outlined plot device". Srsly. If you want to talk plot devices, I can tell you many shows/novels that have had a similar "plot device" to Kataang as you've said certain shows/novels had towards Zutara. Tell me Kim Possible doesn't have the same basic idea with completely different people in another world with different lives. (No, I am not saying Kataang is the same relationship as Kim/Ron, but the idea is very similar, with a different situation; the situation being reversed with Kim as the one with more "destiny" and all) Because that too is based off two best friends with a "deeper" connection, their romantic relationship being developed from the beginning (very subtly) and finally being introduced after multiple seasons, a year or so in the timeline of the actual story.
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 20, 2007 21:28:58 GMT -5
yes, Disney portrayed Pocahontas verry inaccurately... but we are talking about a common plot device as used in fiction... got to go apples to apples here.
(by the way, just thought of another, Beauty and the Beast.)
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Post by catalyst283 on Dec 20, 2007 21:34:10 GMT -5
EDIT: yes i have read Pride and Prejudice. and i never said that one party even HAD to heal the other, only that it was verry often used in the whole "two people who seem verry different come to... bla, bla bla" plot device. however, it could be seen in Pride and Prejudice. was either one too prideful or Prejudice after the interaction? no they both were able to see how wrong they had been... it doesnt have to be a physical healing, more ... separate = Fed up. together = Fixed. Again, besides their wealth, Darcy and Elizabeth were not so different at all. Both were passionate, hot-headed and stubborn. Tell me how they were different besides their wealth. Because besides that they were not at all "two very different people". And when did being healed become such a bad thing? And why does it seem that nobody thinks it is alright for the opposite relationship to have "healing", yet their own has just as much if not more? I mean, you say that Zutara is all about "healing" and everything....and yet, we have Kataang with Katara healing Aang; she saved his life after all...and she's helped him to see many other things....how is that such a bad thing?
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Post by Holierthanthou on Dec 20, 2007 21:35:08 GMT -5
however, zutara has still not moved outside of the outlined plot device i outlined. How? Just because it's not the same type of relationship as Kataang does not mean that it has "not moved outside of the outlined plot device". Srsly. If you want to talk plot devices, I can tell you many shows/novels that have had a similar "plot device" to Kataang as you've said certain shows/novels had towards Zutara. Tell me Kim Possible doesn't have the same basic idea with completely different people in another world with different lives. (No, I am not saying Kataang is the same relationship as Kim/Ron, but the idea is very similar, with a different situation; the situation being reversed with Kim as the one with more "destiny" and all) Because that too is based off two best friends with a "deeper" connection, their romantic relationship being developed from the beginning (very subtly) and finally being introduced after multiple seasons, a year or so in the timeline of the actual story. Exactly! And yet Kim Possible is still a very popular show. Why? Because just because a similar concept has been used before it doesn't make every relationship with that core plot device part of the "same old same old". I think what everyone here is trying to say Zenjamin is that simplifying things gets us nowhere as the core plot device does not tell us anything about the relationship. An argument where all people do is simplify the other ship just goes around in circles till everyone is dizzy.
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Post by mahatista on Dec 20, 2007 21:37:38 GMT -5
Aladdin is a hero/heroine construct (since we're goin' Disney here). ----
HTT: you just hit on something I'd like to point out as a Zutarian. We get: 'they hate each other! He tried to kill Aang! It could never happen! Why would she ever like him!" And then in two breaths we get "it's a cliche!"
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 20, 2007 21:38:30 GMT -5
Srsly. If you want to talk plot devices, I can tell you many shows/novels that have had a similar "plot device" to Kataang as you've said certain shows/novels had towards Zutara. why do I get the feeling that you are just going to go with the "they started out as friends" generalization that Paraiba Ocean mentioned and forget all the deph that i mentioned? thats a shocker. Ok, as ive said before, Kataang is MUCH more then that. If the only thing kataang was, was two friends who start to fall for eachother... then i would agree with you. but it only took 4(?) episodes to move way beyond that and into the much deeper elements i mentioned above... (1 for destiny) and was Ron macking on katara in the very first episode? was Kim brought to Ron by verry strange circumstances? was she waiting for someone just like ron? did she shower him with admiration right away? ya, i dont think Aang/Katara has EVER been like Kim/Ron
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Post by catalyst283 on Dec 20, 2007 21:39:15 GMT -5
Exactly! And yet Kim Possible is still a very popular show. Why? Because just because a similar concept has been used before it doesn't make every relationship with that core plot device part of the "same old same old". I think what everyone here is trying to say Zenjamin is that simplifying things gets us nowhere as the core plot device does not tell us anything about the relationship. An argument where all people do is simplify the other ship just goes around in circles till everyone is dizzy. Ahhh, you've said it much better than I ever could. XD EXACTLY. Seriously, there are multiple relationships with "the basic core" as other relationships....but it is what makes them different that makes them NOT cliche; what makes them so loveable and why people ship them and like the two characters together. EDIT: Zenjamin, please stop simplifying things. PLZ.[/size])[/quote] DIFFERENT. Yet SIMILAR. But DIFFERENT. NOT the same. Nowhere did I say they were the SAME; or that the situation was the SAME; in fact, again, I said the situation were DIFFERENT. Read my whole post, please.
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 20, 2007 21:43:04 GMT -5
Excuse me, four episodes? Katara didn't even start to think of Aang in a romantic light until episode fourteen "The Fortune Teller", where she got her palm read saying she would marry a "powerful bender" and then Sokka says "...boy, sometimes I forget what a powerful bender that kid is".
And there are so many more shows that follow the 'best friends fall in love' cliche, not to mention that it's an m&m pairing. Almost every single show has the m&m pairing, with the exception of Naruto, which there's a chance the main guy might actually end up with a secondary character.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 21:52:58 GMT -5
The fact that a similar concept has appeared before does not make the idea bad....quite the opposite. Some themes are contunous because they work. It's just important to add enough flavor and spin to give your ideas a new angle and new meaning. Both ships have that, so neither can be dismissed as cliche.
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Post by Holierthanthou on Dec 20, 2007 21:56:44 GMT -5
Excuse me, four episodes? Katara didn't even start to think of Aang in a romantic light until episode fourteen "The Fortune Teller", where she got her palm read saying she would marry a "powerful bender" and then Sokka says "...boy, sometimes I forget what a powerful bender that kid is". And there are so many more shows that follow the 'best friends fall in love' cliche, not to mention that it's an m&m pairing. Almost every single show has the m&m pairing, with the exception of Naruto, which there's a chance the main guy might actually end up with a secondary character. OooH! Are you talking about Naruto/Hinata! I LOVE Naruto/Hinata! *is getting extremely off topic* Yes, most stories have two main characters getting together. Often, one of those main characters is only a main character at all because they are the protagonist's love interest. Sometimes it gets a little redundant, but any type of pairing can be good as long as it's handled well, which I think Avatar does with all of its characters regardless of romantic attraction. Still there are those who simply take other's ideas and cobble them together in an unoriginal way and pass them off as the best fantasy ever. *coughEragon!cough*EDIT: Yeah, Yiceman! That's exactly what I'm trying to say. *karmas*
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 20, 2007 22:06:25 GMT -5
Yeah! Naruto/Hinata is my favorite pairing! Yay, another shipper! -gives HTT karma- ^^
Eh...yiceman has a point. I just think it could've been a bit more different if Taang Zutara were the path they would've gone with, that's all.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 22:09:39 GMT -5
Personally, cliche isn't as much as a problem as predictability as far as kataang goes. I like some spice and shock in my romances...things that stir my mind and make me go "wooo." Kataang doesn't do that for me, personally. I saw it coming long ago, went "eh," and honestly dismissed it as the "red herring" romance at first before they throw the show-stopper at me.
But that's just me.
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 20, 2007 22:36:06 GMT -5
Srsly. If you want to talk plot devices, I can tell you many shows/novels that have had a similar "plot device" to Kataang as you've said certain shows/novels had towards Zutara. why do I get the feeling that you are just going to go with the "they started out as friends" generalization that Paraiba Ocean mentioned and forget all the deph that i mentioned? thats a shocker. Ok, as ive said before, Kataang is MUCH more then that. If the only thing kataang was, was two friends who start to fall for eachother... then i would agree with you. but it only took 4(?) episodes to move way beyond that and into the much deeper elements i mentioned above... (1 for destiny) and was Ron macking on katara in the very first episode? was Kim brought to Ron by verry strange circumstances? was she waiting for someone just like ron? did she shower him with admiration right away? ya, i dont think Aang/Katara has EVER been like Kim/Ron after this, you responded with: Zenjamin, please stop simplifying things. PLZ. 0_o So i get on your case for simplifying kataang into "two friends who become more", and start to point out all the reasons that kataang is deep and has deviated from that mold in a unique way ... and you respond by telling ME to not simplify things? Excuse me, four episodes? Katara didn't even start to think of Aang in a romantic light until episode fourteen first off thats still pretty dang quick as that would have happened in under a month. second, i was talking how, by episode four, aang obviously thought of katara as more then a friend. Personally, cliche isn't as much as a problem as predictability as far as kataang goes. I like some spice and shock in my romances...things that stir my mind. the reincarnation of love doesnt do that for you? aangs double sacrifice with the avatar spirit doesnt do that for you? all the other deph that i mentioned doesnt do it for you? /shrug thats your preference, but it is because of your preference. not because of a lack of material or depth. I could continue to argue that zutara has not yet left its "literary mold" or "cliche" but that is not really my real intention. some zutarans were talking about the kataang "cliche" with disdain, as if it were a shallow thing... I just wanted to contrast it with the other side of the spectrum. and i should now point out that i believe there is nothing wrong with a cliche, nothing wrong with sticking with what works. It can be very beautiful if pulled off right.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 22:51:30 GMT -5
Zen, I said predictability because it's been shoved down our throats since day one. It's like "Hey look her likes her."
"look he still likes her."
"still likes her...not about to do anything about it now."
"Oh hay he loves her now."
"still loves her."
"Oh look they kissed now."
They introduced it early, and have been dangling it for ages. If they got together, I wouldn't feel stimulated. I doubt I'd go "wow, that's good." I'm not on the edge of my seat.
It's just not that interesting to me. Reincarnation of love? I side with Sokka's perspective on that.
Sacrificing the Avatar Spirit? I still think that would be a horribly disappointing thing for Aang to do for his own personal wants it it actually came down to a choice. The depth? Don't care. I don't find their scenes and interactions together interesting.
One of my favorite shows is The Office (u.s.) and that started with a guy crushing on a girl. She was getting engaged, so he couldn't do anything about it. They kept that going for three seasons too. But....it was vastly more interesting to me. I actually really enjoyed their dialogue together, the chemistry...the whole shebang. And it had enough plot events to keep it interesting.
I just find their scenes...a little boring, to be honest. I don't get that warm and fuzzy "ohhhh, they support each other so well" feeling you guys do. I'm here to be ENTERTAINED. I want amusing back-and-forths, I want serious ups and downs that aren't wrapped up neat and tidy by the end of each episode, I want misunderstandings and mistakes, I want humor and sadness. I find, what seems to be the major attraction of a lot of people to this ship, to be horrendously dull....I don't care how supportive and understanding they are of each other. I want some passion, some laughs, some cries, and a whole lot of compelling interaction.
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