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Post by conspiracytheorist on Feb 23, 2007 17:43:07 GMT -5
A good and helpful thing is killed so that Aang is happy? Or Aang undergoes personal sacrifice to save the world's best chance? I prefer the latter. Aang and Katara's relationship threaten the foundation that is the Avatar. If "The Guru" had been a stand-alone episode, I would be agreeing with you. But I believe that Iroh's speech about it being wise for Aang to choose love and happiness kind of breaks from Pathik's idea that the only way is for Aang to let Katara go. Pathik is a guru, and obviously a wise man. But Iroh is a more permanent character, who has been Zuko's rock for two good seasons. We, as the viewers, are very accustomed to his teachings, and I think that the message the writing team wanted us to get from these two conflicting dialogs was that Aang needs to make his own way. I'm not a shipper of any kind. "The Cave of Two Lovers" was definitely not my favorite S2 episode. I still don't know how they justfied that kind of Kataang fanservice, especially in giving it an entire episode to itself. Taang, Zutara, it's all the same to me. But there is, I believe, clearly a rejection of Pathik's teaching that the Avatar State can only be obtained by letting go of all earthly attachments in "The Crossroads of Destiny." This is not to say that his proclamation was untrue, but that Aang will have to find his own way in order to defeat the Fire Lord, perhaps without the Avatar State entirely (although we don't have the definitive word on whether Aang really opened the seventh chakra - right now that's all speculation).
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Melis
Long Feng
hay baby wanna get away on my bison?
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Post by Melis on Feb 23, 2007 17:48:44 GMT -5
I've never seen that in the show, I could've missed it though. The moments where he's tried to attract Katara were way back in the first season, when Aang wasn't even sure what the duty of the Avatar was. I saw a change in Aang from season 1 to season 2. In season 1 he was this goofy airbending kid who didn't know jack about what the Avatars did, etc. In season 2, I saw the same kid only with an understanding of what his duties are, and taking charge of said duties.
I agree, Aang would have probably reacted badly if she turned him down. You know what though? You can easily say that by balancing himself via chakra control, not only will he able to master the Avatar State, in return gaining this enormous power, but he'll also be able love Katara on a whole new level. Attachment and Love are two different things, it's kind of like Aang realizing that he loves Katara, but he shouldn't let her cloud his judgement. By doing so, then he'll be able to love her without jealousy if another boy likes her, or depressed/upset if she doesn't return his feelings. Love never leaves your heart, after all.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 23, 2007 17:50:11 GMT -5
I still tend to trust the Guru more, since he's made studying this sort of thing his life's work.
But that's a good point.
@ Aang--bleh, might work. At least Aang would actually do the right thing by letting her go in the first place. But that's still oen of those gaping loopholes that I think really make a story loose it's impact.
Like the 2nd Matrix movie, Neo has 2 doors. One can save mankind, one can save his woman from dying. So what's he do? He goes and save the girl, flying like superman to get there in time, and friggin' pulls the bullet out of her and ressurecst her (wtf?).
And then he still manages to save the world, because of some blaring, huge loophole. He only redeemed himself in my eyes because he made a sacrifice in the end, which is what I think would be better for Aang (not dying, just letting Katara go).
So yeah, that could work. But I don't really want it to, because it's cheesey.
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Melis
Long Feng
hay baby wanna get away on my bison?
Posts: 3,293
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Post by Melis on Feb 23, 2007 18:10:37 GMT -5
yiceman: I can see Aang making that sacrifice, he practically almost did by the end of the Crossroads of Destiny. If the meaning of "letting go of Katara" isn't cleared up, then I can see Aang believing that he can't be with her, so he does his best to remove any idea of romance between the two. I guess it could add to the plot, Aang starting to really pick up on his Avatar duties now that they don't have that much time left, I just don't know where they'll take Katara's feelings into this during that period. It's clear she holds deep feelings for Aang, whether they be romantic feelings or just platonic, but one scenario I see is Katara defining who Aang is to her -- a friend or a potential love interest? (as someone from the Sky Castle stated awhile ago) I do agree that I think Aang will have to save the world in his own way. I find it interesting that Katara said back in 2x01 "Aang's persuing his destiny his way." That could come back in season 3, and it ties in with Iroh's speech: "Perfection and power are overrated, I think it is wise of you to choose happiness and love".
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 23, 2007 18:18:41 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe, but I'm just hoping they pull it off in a way that doesn't seem hokey. They haven't let me down in the past, but I just really don't want those lame loophole "The power of love prevailed!" endings. * I swear I'll shoot the first person who says 'well I don't know why you think love is lame...'*
You see what I mean? It's just not a fulfilling ending, imo. It's not very heroic if the antagonist just flicks his wrist and saves the day without any hardship. He's shown that he's willing to risk physical hurt to do what needs to be done, so i think showing he's willing to give up what he loves for the good of the world is more heroic.
And I think it would be better writing if they don't just up and give him what he wants anyway. Then his decision doesn't even seem that heroic, because he just gets what he wants anyways.
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Post by spook on Feb 23, 2007 18:28:20 GMT -5
Let's look at the hypothetical situation here: how would Aang react if she turned him down? Would he shrug it off and focus on his responsibilities? If, as you keep claiming, his love is such a pure, epic, heroic, and undying sensation of emotions more powerful than any of us mere mortals could comprehend (instead of a 12-year-old cush), then no. He would be devistated to the point that he might not even care about saving the world anymore. That's the kind of dependency that can be harmful. Indeed it can. Exactly what I said before, his rash impulse to help the ones he loves, even if this is clearly counterproductive in the end, is something Aang must learn to sacrifice. I just don't see the necessity to drop romance entirely to achieve this though. Aah, so platonic love = good, but romantic love = bad? That's a rather simplistic view, isn't it? And rather vague, when it comes to providing simple ethical lessons to the kiddies. "Loving people like you love friends and family is good, but being IN love, no, that's bad"? A hard distinction to make, seeing as platonic and romantic feelings are often intertwined. So, to repeat my statement, I can very well see the creators sacrifice the unhealthy parts that come with romance, such as selfishness, impulsive behavior, jealousy etc, but to make all romantic feelings look bad? That would be a tad extreme, plus of course highly inconsistent with the rest of the story, as nothing in the show has portrayed romantic feelings as something bad before (quite the opposite really). It hasn't been shown as a one-sided crush at all. In the very episodes Aang clearly showed romantic feelings, Katara always had a response to it. Not as clearly as Aang of course, but that only makes sense, since this is Aang's story, not Katara's. In the Fortuneteller, Katara ends up with the epiphany that Aang is OMG a boy, and potential boyfriend material. Why incorporate that if the creators only meant to show it as a onesided crush? In the next Kataang-based episode, the creators take an extra step and have Katara explicitly and abundantly show that she likes Aang too. She probably isn't swooning over Aang like he is over her, but she had time to think on the issue after the Fortuneteller, which she did, and she liked the idea. So she went all blushy and offered to kiss him in a cave of romantic love with pretty lights and ancient stories of epic lovers etc etc. Why incorporate all of this if they only meant to portray Aang's love for Katara as an unhealthy, unrequited infatuation? And I don't really understand how it's not gradual. Sokka's relationships have been instantanious and have often developped in 1/2 episodes, but Katara and Aang's relationship has been developped for two whole seasons, with another season of development still ahead. It has been very gradual, clearly changing from puppy, blushy kiddylove into a serious relationship in the latter half of season 2. And with the obvious romantic connotations and the major character development of both Aang and Katara, I would hardly call it out of the blue if the creators decided to have the relationship come to an eventual climax (whether positive or negative), and I'm 99% certain this climax will come. For good or bad, I doubt Aang is just going to push a magic button and flush two seasons of character development down the drain as if it never happened. Uhm... how about "the Desert"? "The Serpent's Pass"? Hell, even the season finale could be interpreted this way. The Avatar State has in fact been shown as something bad. It dehumanizes Aang, turns him into a raw, destructive force of nature which could kill at an instant. Whenever he enters the Avatar State, he ceizes being Aang and becomes the Avatar. And that isn't necessarily a good thing, since the Avatar has been portrayed as one scary SOB from time to time. Of course this could change if Aang masters the Avatar State and becomes a fully-realized Avatar (or, as I hope, loses the Avatar State), but the Avatar State has indeed been portrayed as a negative thing, a negative that so far has only been stopped by the bond between Katara and Aang. So yeah, you're statement, ironic as it may be, has a sense of truth in it. Bah, I have plenty of followers! They're just not as vocal as your recruits!
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Post by stinkypinky on Feb 23, 2007 18:32:10 GMT -5
Excuse me? So what if I am? The difference between you and I, is that I don't care if any ship happens, I don't care if Zutara doesn't, it's no sweat off my back. I ship what appeals to me, not for "OMFG CANON PROOF" I've avoided discussing ships for a while and I come back not caring, because it's a show! When it's done and over with, I'll move onto another without batting an eyelash. I see things how I see them, I see Aang backed into a corner either going with the Avatar State or picking Katara. I see Katara not liking Aang the way he does, because she hasn't shown me anything other since season 1. I see Aang's feelings only been building up since the beginning to be an obstacle for him to reaching enlightenment. So have a nice day. Dude, get a grip. I was only joking. Sheez,a ;D emoticon should make that clear enough... Him not putting Katara over the world doesn't necessarily mean he has to cut all romantic ties with her. A little self-discipline can work miracles... As for him relying on Katara, I disagree. He has never relied on Katara. He doesn't run of to her when he needs to make a hard decision, he doesn't let her run his life and he doesn't try to shuff his role as Avatar off on her. So no, I don't see the overreliance in the relationship between Katara and Aang that I see in the relationship between say, Zuko and Iroh. I was referring than he values her more than the world. She's his crutch. As he was trying to enter the 7th Chakra with the Guru he sees Katara in danger. It wouldn't have taken that long to master the Avatar State and rescue Katara. It took almost a day to get from the Eastern Air Temple back to BaSS, what would a couple of minutes do? He's mastered it, rescues Katara and BaSS instead of trying to force himself into it when things got too rough. So if Katara told Aang she didn't feel the same way, would he just go and say "well okay I tried, time to move on" No, he has an unhealthy dependence on Katara, to the point of jealously. It doesn't send a good message, that you need love to be happy. Aang should be happy with himself, but he wants Katara to notice him that he puts the world second place to her. So when Guru Patik (who spent most of his life to basically become the Avatar's guide) tells him he needs to let go, Aang doesn't want to. "To hell with the world, as long as I got my woman on my side, everything will work it's way out" (<--- totally means I'm joking) edit: spoke too soon, yiceman basically said what I wanted to. edit2: I don't see that as the message of the story, I see it as "sometimes you have to do what is right than what you want" Aang can't always get what he wants and if he gets a loophole to get both it tells the kiddies that "yes you can get everything you want" And all of Katara's character development in helping Aang will be nothing more that of a prize, she wasn't meant for anything than to be Aang's. In the Fortune teller why must someone tell her that Aang could be that guy instead of seeing it for herself? She saw Aang as a cute little guy and all of a sudden Sokka says Oh boy he's a stronger bender and Katara suddenly sees he is! In CoTL she could have been blushing for, ohh I don't know, the fact that this is her first kiss so of course she'd blush. And I'll say it again, I see all this as Aang's obstacle to finally reaching enlightment to finally be happy with himself, instead of blushing because the girl he wants just happened to give him a hug. edit 4: spoke too soon again, I must type faster XP
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 23, 2007 18:57:47 GMT -5
I was talking more about the implication that romantic love is neccesary to achieve happiness, not that love was a bad thing. That's what I would see as a bad message. A lot of these coming of age stories feature romantic crushes, and 98% of the time the first crush the main guy has falls flat on it's face. Just watch teen nick some time (on second thought, don't. I wouldn't wish that on Osama Bin Laden himself). To be honest, Aang's crush reminds me more of the character Doug from the old nick cartoon, and his obsession with a girl named Patty. I don't remember what happened to them, though... Anyhoo, no, being IN love isn't a bad message, but I just think it's not healthy to imply that your crushes will always work out. I've had hundreds of them, and I'm sure you have as well, and there's even been times when I jumped to conclusions and assumed I was "in love" when, in retrospect, my obsession with those particular people just muddied my brains. I think that's what Aang has, atm. Not to say under different circumstances it wouldn't happen, but I really don't buy the "true love" arguements. Why? Because how does a 12-year-old know better than me at 16, and pretty much everyone else who's ever jumped to those similar conclusions? And I have to say that it is still one-sided in a romantic sense. Why? Because dude...if it was two sided...they'd actually have a romantic relationship! I don't think Katara's the type to just hide feelings like that. They're keeping her feelings in the dark for a reason we'll have to discover later. As for all of that 'proof,' I consider that open to interpretation. It doesn't hold any more water for me than the Zutara "proof" atm. As for the gradual building, that's what i mean when I say that to get them together now would seem abrupt considering the slow, snail-like crawl their relationship has undergone the past 2 seasons. I mean, it could be done, but I think that it's also a likely reason to consider that it's just not going anywhere, other that to build for the moment he lets her go. Sokka had sudden romances, but that really just seems to add to the romantic nature of them. Aang's just such a shy guy he's having trouble telling her, and I think it's more because he's going to have to make a choice by himself than he's going to say, in the last episode, "Guess what Katara I love you" and she replies, "Omg I love you too, go figure." My point is, taken what I've observed in stories, when the main guy's going to have a romance it usually sneaks up on him. He doesn't realize it on the first page and let it linger forever. If it is a lingering crush, that just screams "Ain't gonna happen!" everytime I read or watch it. So the ultimate message is--natraully developed love > obsessive love. Why do I call it that? Aang had a crush on Katara the first time he saw her. He didn't even know her then, she could have been a real B#%$ for all he knew, but he still was fawning after her. Why? Because she's pretty. I prefer it when the hero starts liking someone based on who they are rather than noticing their looks first and then slowly builing up because that person, coincidentally, happens to be a good human being. And my quote about the avatar state isn't really ironic, I thought the fact that controlling the avatar state would be a given. But since you want me to clarify.... NOT having control of the Avatar State = bad thing HAVING control over the Avatar State = good thing Letting Katara go=having control over the Avatar State. Therefore, Letting Katara go=good thing. Know what that is? Trasitive property, booyah! (don't take this arguement entirely seriously, btw) My point is, the Avatar State itself has never been a bad thing, it's just Aang's lack of control that is hurtful. And letting go of Katara is a way to cure that. Because, honestly, I don't think getting yourself shot with lightning and killing the Avatar cycle is really a heroic thing. The Avatar State isn't negative just because it gets between this ship. I think it's the other way around; the ship is negative because it gets in the way of the Avatar State. Of course, this is a matter of opinion we disagree with, but I think the AS is more important on the whole. As far as the world is considered, it's for the best that the AS still exists in the hands of someone willing to use it for good. Sad to say, really and truthfully, one kid getting his crush to like him isn't as important as that in the wider scheme of things. P.S. People who say "I agree kataang is awesome!" don't count, I'm talking people who send you PM's asking if they can use your arguements edit: high-five stinkypinky. People are always more likely to listen to two raving lunatics than one, heh
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Post by mindbender18 on Feb 23, 2007 19:31:32 GMT -5
Wow, all of a sudden this turned from a Kataang vs. Zutara war debate to a Kataang vs. Avatar State war debate. Well at least it's more reasonable But seriously, if anyone saw the person they loved in trouble they would have done the same thing Aang did. It's just an instinct, it's not being "obsessed"
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 23, 2007 19:37:13 GMT -5
For some reason every time I enter into a coversation it becomes that kind of debate I wonder why on earth that is...
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Post by spook on Feb 24, 2007 7:02:25 GMT -5
I don't see that as the message of the story, I see it as "sometimes you have to do what is right than what you want" Aang can't always get what he wants and if he gets a loophole to get both it tells the kiddies that "yes you can get everything you want" And all of Katara's character development in helping Aang will be nothing more that of a prize, she wasn't meant for anything than to be Aang's. Well, that's a matter of interpretation then I guess. IMO there was plenty of room left to fill in the absolute meaning of "letting go", so I'm still keeping my mind open about the issue. As far as I see it, the whole letting go thing was purposelly left ambiguous, as it added to the cliffhanger effect. You would consider it a loophole if Pathik's words weren't as unambiguous as you initially thought they were, well I wouldn't. Not just because I support Kataang, but also because I just think there was plenty of room left open for different interpretations, quite a rare occurence in Avatar. As for Katara being a prize, such logic could just as well be applied to Zuko. OMG, Zuko, you turned good, here's Katara as a reward. Well, I don't tend to think that way. I personally think there's a very real possibility that she, you know, does reciprocate Aang's feelings and would actually like being with Aang in that way. Because she is, you know, inexperienced in romance, and never thought of her BFF like that? You know, the very meaning of the word EPIPHANY. Aah, yes, Aang and Katara get stuck in a lovecave with pretty lights, romantic music, blushes, the typical behavior of romantically inexperienced children and in the end they lean into to kiss each other, with the lights fading in a romantic way, and all of this was done to give us the impression that "Katara is inexperienced in love but she still doesn't reciprocate Aang's feelings". Seriously, this discussion has been held many times before, but I don't see the point. The creators put Aang and Katara in a romantic situation, simply because they wanted to imply that the feelings between them (both) are growing. There's nothing ambiguous about that, and if the creators didn't want to imply that Katara's feelings for Aang were growing, they wouldn't have made it clear it in such an unambiguous way. Well, I see it as a way to remove the Avatar State out of the equation. Interpretations differ. Well, you yourself have answered that question many times already: because this is fiction. And in fiction, the most important emotional relationship (the One True Pairing) is often the deepest and strongest one. It's not even all that original. I personally think it's just one of those "meant to be" kinda relationships. You can like it or dislike it, but I think it's as simple as that. I personally like it, because it has been portrayed in such a realistic and beautiful way. They don't immediatly totally fall in love with each other, like in most other stories, but their feelings for each other gradually deepen and grow stronger untill the eventual climax of the story, most likely happening around the end of season 3. Uhm, yeah, you know, for the reasons of basic story- and tensionbuilding. Why would the creators make the feelings of both Aang and Katara so openly obvious? That would totally ruin the anticipation. That's why I personally never ship two people who's feelings for each other are so deeply obvious, because there's absolutely no fun in it. Come on, as someone aspiring to be a writer himself some day, you must recognize that this is just plain storybuilding. The hints of reciprocation are most definately there, just not abundantly enough to already draw conclusions. That way it's not totally onesided, but the anticipation of "what's going to happen?" is still there. Oh come on. You don't even have to be a shipper to see that there is a lot more hinting in the direction of Kataang than it is Zutara. There have been two whole episodes dedicated to their romantic feelings for each other and countless episodes about their platonic feelings for each other, while Zutara still relies on vague and inaccurate symbolism. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's canon and what's not. Exactly! But why don't you think Aang is capable of loving Katara without being obsessive? He still has lots of character development awaiting him in season 3, so why couldn't he learn to be more responsible with how he feels? That's what I said. That still doesn't negate the Avatar State's negative portrayal in the previous two seasons (except for SoTN of course). Doesn't mean the Avatar State is inherently bad, but it has most definately been portrayed in a negative light. Perhaps not. But it sure as hell is a refreshing and utterly brilliant way to write a story. Aang not being able to learn responsibility by putting all his hopes on becoming the ultimate killingmachine was something I didn't like in the first place. Aang being forced to learn responsibility, to become smart and wise, by not being able to call upon said superweapon is IMO a fantastic route to take. Hah, I've got thousands of those. But I'm bound by a confidentiality agreement, so unfortunately I can't tell who they are.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 24, 2007 16:41:15 GMT -5
I still just can't picture the Guru letting Aang run off like that if there was any other way. I'm looking at stroytelling side and the character side here. Storytelling-wise, it could turn out that later the original implied meaning of 'letting go' wasn't what he really meant, but that's...lackluster storytelling. That's the loophole I keep talking about.
I really don't think it would be an amazing thing to have the Guru show up and say, "I was just joking! You got shot for nothing!" The popular arguement is that by "letting go" Aang just has to learn to avoid attachment, so he can love her in the purest form, but I just don't buy that. It's too much like a fanfic. It's obvious the writers don't take shipping as serious as we do, so I just don't see them giving kataang this awesomely epic and deeply pure essence. It's just too much to swallow, to look at these two kids and basically be told "they've discovered the purest type of love there is!"
Someone who likes fluff and bloated romantic notions might gobbble that up right away, but it's just too far-fetched. Even fantasy stories don't change basic human nature that much. Not to mentioned it's entirely unlike the creators. Sokka's relationships have been shown in a very realiztic, teens-experience-their-first-romances fasion, and have their bumps and rough spots in them.
No one's perfect, so for the creators to imply that Aang has found "perfect love?" How does that apply to the real world at all? It wouldn't give any realistic messages, because even the "love is da best!" morals would be overpowered by the implication that Aang and Katara have this pure, attachment-free form of love, and it's too bad none of us will ever get to experience what that's like. It doesn't have any basis in the real world, and believe it or not, the best fantasy writers don't write to tell us about dragons and wizards, they write about human themes. Human themes from which we can grow and learn and better ourselves, and the fact that this is intended for awkwardly developing young teens only makes that more important. They can't have this overly romanticized, epic depiction of romance, because that would just give kids false ideas. I mean, a lot of people who have trouble in relationships suffer from inexperience, because they were involved in a long-term relationship at too young an age. I've seen real life evidence of that.
It's just not possible to rid oneself of attachment and be in a real romantic relationship. Jealously is a biological reaction designed to cause us to compete with each other, so that the strongest ones are the ones who mate and pass on their genes. This attachment is biological human nature, and it's just too much of a stretch to say that someone can overcome this with the object of their attraction right in front of their faces all the time. That's why those priests go nutters for the catholic boys; the kids are right there, all day, and no oaths of chastity and words of god can withold strong human feelings. That's why the monks, the real ones and the avatar ones, live up in the mountains alone: to get away from temptation.
And that's what Katara is, she's Aang's temptation. But I'll talk about that later.
I should recognize that it's tension, being an aspiring writer, shouldn't I? Well, I first thought that, but on deeper analysis, I can compare the crush more on terms of other crushes I've seen in stories. I've read any number of books where characters swoon after others from a distance, and they all share the same symptons with Aang. And you know what? None of these have EVER evolved into a true romantic pairing.
The best example comes from the Harry Potter books, which share some similarities to Avatar because it's a series targeted to the youth but appeals to everyone, and features a young hero with a lot on his shoulders. Now, for like 3 of the books in the series, Harry's got a crush on this girl Cho Chang. For 3 books it's all awkward looks, blushes, and all of that stuff that could be seen from Aang. Finally, they go out. And guess what? The whole thing goes to crap. And you know what? Harry was fine. He was a bigger, better persone because of it, and since then he hasn't had any lingering crushes. No, in fact in the most recent book, he handled his attracting in a much more straightforward and mature manner. Much better than implying that he found true love for the first time when he was 15, neh? Because that's just not realistic.
So, as a writer, Aang's adoration of Katara has all the symptons of a crush. They'd have to work fast in season 3 to change it. Because that's the problem; right now Aang has strong feelings for her, but he needs to, at some point, confess them. Katara will either turn him down or accept his feelings with her own, and I don't see them just springing these sudden feelings from her part. A blush and admitting he's a powerful bender just isn't enough evidence to go on. They just haven't built it up gradually enough, with Aang's feelings being showed too much and Katara's not enough. The whole relationship is aiming toward the crush method than the discovering love method.
As for evidence, I'm fully aware of the evidence on Aang's side, I just don't buy the blush in CotL and "powerful bender" in the fortuneteller as enough to be considered evidence. It's on the same level as the Zutara evidence to me, because at least the zutara stuff is creative and subtle, which is more on the style of romantic writers instead of just saying "Hey! She's blushing! They're gonna hook up!" So, as far as I'm considered, neither side has definitive proof.
And I just don't see this as a way to be rid of the Avatar State. It still seems to me that not having control over it was what was bad, not the AS itself. When under control, it's never been considered an evil, killing weapon. Just watch Kyoshi use it to save her people. It's a tool, and it all depends on who's using it.
Quite frankly, the theme of the Avatar is stronger than the romantic theme. I just don't see the kataang relationship as being portrayed as a good thing because it kills the AS, because if the AS is indeed gone for good, (according to the avatar escpae videos it's not, but I really don't know how much truth those hold) that also means the avatar is gone. I don't think any romance is worth that. The avatar has never been shown as a silly thing, quite the reverse. The world went to hell because there was no avatar, and you can't say that the people just sat around waiting for him to solve their problems. They've been fighting 100 years, trying to save themselves.
It's not a good theme. The avatar cycle itself being destroyed just for this romance? I mean, I could see it ending if it had ever at any time been portrayed as something the people rely on too much, so Aang ends it for noble reasons, but his own romantic interests just aren't enough. I don't see the avatar state being gone for good, and definently not for that reason.
The Guru was portrayed as a good person, Aang was happy and anxious to learn control, as were his friends. It was a GOOD thing. I don't see how they'll praise him for what he did. I don't see the world thanking him for getting rid of the avatar cycle forever. I don't see Katara continuing to admire and respect him as she does when she learns what he did. She might be a little flattered, but not with the fate of the world at stake. She would be dissapointed, because even if the AS has caused Aang trouble in the past, she's smart enough to understand that it has to be there. She sees the bigger picture.
And if you want to bring Zutara into this for some reason, the relationship that might develop between them would be too complicated for Katara to be a reward. Plus, she isn't his prize, because he's not trying to get her in the first place. Aang is, she's what he wants, and that's why getting her would be like giving a dog a treat for doing a trick. A relationship developed between Zuko and Katara would require so much effort on both parts that it wouldn't be a simplistic "Aang, turns out I've loved you all along too!"
It would have a slow, gradual process of development on both sides, with them equally sharing reflecting feelings instead of one of them being the focus point and the other being an object of attraction. Because right now, that's all Katara is in the romance with Aang. He persues her in a lustful manner, while she remains relatively oblivious. You can't deny that it was obvious he liked her from the first episode, before he even knew her, so his attraction to her started as physical before building on to deeper levels. The ship is based on the lustful attentions of a 12-year-old. Yes...I see what you mean by "pure" and "beuatiful." Because maybe now it's deeper, but the way it started discourages it becoming a true romance. Every single book I've read that has romance has the protagnoist get with the girl who's beauty wasn't the very first thing he notices, whether she is beautiful or not. It's not a strong foundation. There's always an attractive woman in there somewhere who is the embodiment of lust and temptation, but the good guy always grows closer to the girl who's personality traits where the first thing he noticed.
And Zuko didn't notice Katara's looks right away. He wasn't trying to woo her, or else he would have been a stuttering mess like he was with Jin. Their relationship has more potential for EQUALITY in development.
Another interesting note, is that Zuko and Aang are very much like Yin and Yang. I know you hate the "ying and yang" stuff, but I'm talking about him and Aang here. Look at it: one has a bright and good exterior with darker parts to him, and the other is dark and rough with good characteristics struggling to break free. Both have suffered in their lives, but whereas Aang is commended for being a "good, brave little guy," Zuko is seen as a wretched figure. We praise Aang for wanting Katara's love, but scorn Zuko for wanting his father's love.
You cna't deny they've been seen as parallels fairly often. The Storm and CoD are the most obvious. In the finale, both made a choice. What was that choice? Both chose to cling to the hopes of gaining the object of their attraction. Aang wants Katara's affection, when he should want to save the world. Zuko wants his father's respect, when he should want to save his people. Both are persuing lost causes.
Here's where Yin and Yang comes into play again: Aang chooses to continue following the object of his attraction, and we praise him. Zuko continues to seek his father's respect, and we call him foolish. Why? Because Ozai appears good and Katara appears bad. But here's where the Yin and Yang shows up loud and clear once more. On the outside, Katara appears to be the good and right choice for Aang, so he cheer him on. But Ozai appears evil to us, so Zuko is seen as an idiot. This is, in essence, the entire lives for the two characters. They both want basically the same thing, but in the end, both of them will have to make a choice for what is best. We all know Zuko isn't going to stick with Ozai and Azula, so why, after all this time of he and Aang reflecting each other, will Aang once again get what he wants while Zuko has to learn the hard way?
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Post by spook on Feb 24, 2007 17:30:24 GMT -5
Just a few notes I'd like to make. Most of it is just a matter of interpretation, which we're never going to agree on, so I'll just focus on the parts I find trully interesting. As for evidence, I'm fully aware of the evidence on Aang's side, I just don't buy the blush in CotL and "powerful bender" in the fortuneteller as enough to be considered evidence. It's on the same level as the Zutara evidence to me, because at least the zutara stuff is creative and subtle, which is more on the style of romantic writers instead of just saying "Hey! She's blushing! They're gonna hook up!" So, as far as I'm considered, neither side has definitive proof. So, you think it doesn't count as clearcut proof, because it's not creative enough? Well, newsflash for you, romance on Avatar never is! Come on, all the relationships so far have relied on old-fashioned bonds of trust and friendship, not on silly Ying/Yang analogies and all of that. Fact is, Avatar isn't some deep, complicated romantic tragedy, it's a kids' story. It isn't going to be subtle, because they want to make everything as clear as possible. Which is why CoTL is just a blatantly unambiguous case of evidence of reciprocation. Whether you think it's "enough", well, that's a personal opinion which I share to a certain extent (as I said, there's still a whole season coming up), but it is most definately above the level of what Zutarians consider evidence. Avatar is a beautifull show, but don't start reading it as something it's not. When something is obvious, it's obvious because it's meant to be. It's not "too" obvious, because that just doesn't exist in these kinds of stories. Things are implied for a reason. In CoTL it was implied that Katara does have romantic feelings for Aang, and there's most definately a reason for it. Like I said, I'm not saying she's currently deeply in love with Aang, but the feelings are most definately there. No it isn't. The Avatar is not the Avatar State. Just because Aang doesn't have some cheesy, formulaic and overly clichéd superduper power-up to call upon, doesn't mean he can't make a difference. I would totally adore if the creators would make Aang have to fight the Firenation without being able to call upon some cheatcode to save his butt all the time. Now THAT would be brilliant, original storywriting. Oh, and I don't know if you've seen Yangchen's comic, but she said Aang's connection with the Avatar State has been disrupted, meaning he can no longer use it. I know, it's not canon, but even these creators of these comics seem to be agreeing with me! And that's a bad thing? There is a good ethical lesson to be learned in being able to take care of yourself, rather than having to rely on some superhero to save you whenever you mess up. That is a schoolbook example of an unhealthy reliance on one individual. Think about it, the Avatar disappears and the world goes to hell. That shows something about how incapable these people are to run their own lives. Perhaps now that Aang is the last Avatar, with the cycle being broken and all, the world might actually have to start growing some responsibility, instead of just looking up to the Avatar to clean up its mess. Romance? Heck no, I wouldn't like that either. It's the lessons of responsibility that come with the Avatar State being gone that makes me like the idea so much. If Zutara was the ship the creators were planning to be the OTP, I could pretty much guarantee it wouldn't be developped equally either. Not because they wish to imply that the love is unrequited, but simply because they know how to build a story. It has nothing to do with the characters as individuals, just with their respective parts in the storyline. Well see, I just can't picture them as Yin/Yang either. Because that philosophy is all about two polar opposites complementing each other. One cannot exist without the other. Good cannot exist without evil, day can't exist without the night etc. And Aang and Zuko do not share these opposite qualities. They are both inherently good characters, they're both struggling to achieve a goal, they're both looking for love. Sure they have opposite traits, but these just do not warrant a Yin/Yang comparison I don't really hate philosophical references, I just hate it when they're done inaccurately. Especially when it comes to Yin and Yang comparisons, since it's basically impossible for humans to fit these criteria. No one person is purely Yin, nor is anyone purely Yang. So even when two people have conflicting character traits, that still doesn't make Yin/Yang comparisons correct. No, Zuko fangirls and Zutarians do. I absolutely loved it, as it's both very original writing, and it makes complete sense. I would probably have scorned Zuko if he'd chosen Aang. Heh, the irony in the statement being that they actually do want both. They just need to straighten their priorities out. Something they'll undoubtedly do in season 3. I don't think Aang wanting to love Katara, nor his desire to be loved Katara, is a lost cause. Far from it actually. I don't even think Zuko wanting his father's love is such a farfetched idea, but I'll be skinned alive if I elaborate on that one, so I won't. Hmm, we never seem to agree on anything, now do we Yice? Perhaps we are the embodiement of Yin/Yang in this forum, eh?
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 24, 2007 18:22:56 GMT -5
The writers of the show don't dumb themselves down for the sake of it being a kids show. They imply important things in straightforward natures, but they stick plently of their own little ideas in there too that we don't neccesarily have to get. So subtle hints are a very likely probability, because even though WE don't see them, THEY do, and they like doing that. Writers love that sort of thing.
So no, I'm not saying the zutara proof can be taken seriously, my point was that the evidence of Katara's feelings don't hold more water than some of the stuff I see zutara folks come up with. I don't think Katara's view of Aang is made obvious, because...we still don't know how she feels. I think it's safe to say that since you, as a fan of their relationship, notice it, that doesn't mean everyone else will. I wasn't even a member of this site, or had ever heard the words "shipping" "kataang" or "Zutara" when I saw that episode, and I didn't go "Hey she likes him!"
And you forget something about the Avatar State. If it was indeed gone forever, as you wish it to be, then the Avatar Cycle would cease to exist. That's what I'm saying is a bad thing. And I get sick and tired of people calling the AS a "DBZ powerup." Especially beacuse I'm pretty sure no one really had any objections to it before they found out it threatened their ship. The fact that getting killed while in the AS prevents it from being a cheap way to solve problems, since it is intentially designed not to be used as a means to come out best in a fight. The best use for it is to completely overwhelm people before there even IS a fight. Now I agree that, storytelling-wise, it's better that Aang doesn't have that ability mastered right now, but in the long run he needs it. No matter what happens they wouldn't just have Aang totally "pwn" Ozai. The way I see it, it'll be Aang in the Avatar State vs. Ozai with mega-Sozin's comet powers. It's like when they intorduce a gun in act 1, it's going to be used in act 3. Or when in a story, a young girl is advised not to eat anything on the table, so she just HAS to eat. We will see Sozin's comet, and we will see the AS again.
If you count Yangchen's comic as proof, you'll notice the AS isn't gone for good. If it was, the Avatar cycle would be dead. Also notice Yangchen said it was "disturbed," not "gone."
My point about the world needing the Avatar is that they haven't been relying on him 100 years. They've been fending for themselves. No one has stood around going, "Gee I sure hope the avatar shows up!" I know you're not trying to undermine Aang's role, but they would be SCREWED without him. And this is their fault? It's all because of the avatar that they don't know how to solve their own probelms? I don't buy it, not after seeing how hard the water tribe and earth kingdom has been fighting to save themselves. They've done the best they can. They NEED Aang, and the avatar.
And I don't buy the notion that it's more responsible for Aang to give up the AS. It was never once shown as a cheap way to win the war, it was always a last resort. That's what The Avatar State episode was about; using it as a weapon is not it's intended purpose. It's not an easy way to win, Aang isn't a hero for getting rid of it.
Storytelling-wise, it's better he doesn't have it now, but it HAS to come back. Character-wise, the AS is more important than him being in a romance. The world needs all it can get. It's not going to have this sudden epiphany of "Hey, maybe we should all stop fighting!" if the avatar dissapears. Wars do not end if a world is left on it's own. Our world is proof of that.
Just look at all of the fighting factions in the middle east and africa. They fight because they're different. Imagine if they had a figure who represented all of them, and was a part of all of them, and unified them? Imagine if there was someone who could unify the middle east, but decided he'd rather have a girlfriend. Would we be grateful? No.
As for Yin and Yang, remember, they aren't good vs evil. They're just opposites, with a little bit of the other one inside them. I think that describes Zuko and Aang pretty well. Aang has these good qualities with bad ones deep inside him (strangely enough most of those bad qualities like jealousy, anger, and temptation stem from Katara), whereas Zuko, upon first glance, was ruthless and mean, but has a good person deep inside him.
No one is purely yin and no one is purely yang, as you said, but it's made explicitly clear by the concept of yin and yang, if I recall, that NOTHING is comeplety yin or yang. And I don't think the idea of yin and yang is meant to just sit there and not apply to anything, so it makes just as much sense to compare these two characters to that idea as anything else. I feel the anology fits quite well, remembering that no analogies are 100% accurate.
But then you seemed to pass over my main points and attack my use of phliosophy.
Aang and Zuko are both seeking something which could be damaging. They both have to let those things go. So fine, if not yin and yang, they are parallel. Aang's top priority is getting Katara to like him, with saving the world as number two. That does need to change, whether completely letting her go or not. The season 2 finale had the two characters almost mirroring each other. My point was, we see the thing Aang wants as good and the thing Zuko wants as bad. We forget the emotional impact the things they want have on them. It seems we all agree that Zuko needs to forget about regaining his father's respect, but then why does Aang get to continue persuing his attractions, without learning the same lesson Zuko does? Because Katara's nice?
She's not worth the death of the avatar cycle, or the enslavement of the whole world. If Aang and Zuko continue to shadow each other, Aang WILL have to make a choice again, this time for the right reasons.
The main arguement you seem to have is that Aang can do both: save the world and get the girl. I'm presenting you with the very likely possibility that Aang has to choose his responsibilities to save the world or her. I ask you now, in a hypothetical situation, what do you REALLY think would be better; Aang choosing Katara, or Aang choosing to stop Ozai? Black and white question, no "ifs" "ands" or "buts" please.
Because this is a very likely situation, if Aang and Zuko's parallel stories are any indication.
Us yin and yang? Phaw, no way. We could probably agree on loads of stuff, just nothing that has to do with kataang or zutara. I'm sure we both agree taang is impossible... ;x
P.S. This is just a pet peeve of mine...I hate it when people just take direct quotes of what I've said out of context and reply to them like that. I get the feeling you're just analyzing exact literal setences instead of getting the whole picture. I tend to ramble, but usually the main idea's there.
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Post by spook on Feb 25, 2007 7:15:56 GMT -5
So no, I'm not saying the zutara proof can be taken seriously, my point was that the evidence of Katara's feelings don't hold more water than some of the stuff I see zutara folks come up with. I don't think Katara's view of Aang is made obvious, because...we still don't know how she feels. I think it's safe to say that since you, as a fan of their relationship, notice it, that doesn't mean everyone else will. I wasn't even a member of this site, or had ever heard the words "shipping" "kataang" or "Zutara" when I saw that episode, and I didn't go "Hey she likes him!" Well, I did. And that was even before I started shipping them. IMO, it was made pretty clear that this relationship wasn't totally meant to be onesided, and nothing in the rest of season 2 has suggested otherwise to me. If you don't see that the same way, fine. Let's just agree to disagree. Well, then you're wrong in my case. I started disliking the Avatar State ever since I saw Siege of the North. Aang was just such an invincible force of nature that there just wasn't any excitement in the fight. He tore apart a huge host of Firenation battleships as if the were made of plastic. I just don't wish to see a repeat of that in the season 3 finale. Even with the power of the Comet, even if Ozai is a firebending prodigy, he still wouldn't stand a chance in hell against Aang if he mastered the Avatar State. So yeah, I do consider the Avatar State to be a cheap, DBZ-like power-up. Just because it has a elaborate background, a fancy history, is a vital part of the Avatar etc etc doesn't change that fact IMO. It's still a cheatcode to a way too easy victory, one I wish to see gone. And the fact that Aang is also a firebender, and also gains power from the Comet totally eludes you? Aang would basically have two power-ups and would still totally pwn Ozai. Hell, even in a one-on-one between Aang and Ozai, Aang with the Avatar State and Ozai with the Comet, I still think Aang would easily win. Both are more powerfull, but Aang still has total control over all four elements, with Ozai still being limited to one, so Ozai would still be at a huge disadvantage. Also, you always seem to think that if Aang gets both Katara and the Avatar State we would be dealing with a loophole. Well, I would find Aang still being able to access the Avatar State a loophole. Roku explicitly stated that if Aang dies in the Avatar State, the cycle would be broken. A very powerful doomsday scenario. Now, Aang gets hit in the back by the most powerful firebending move in the world, by one of the most powerful firebenders in the world. So he must have died, you can't survive an attack like that. Now, I would find it terribly anticlimactic if by some loophole Aang would still be able to save the Avatar Cycle and the Avatar State, like he can in the game. That would just be weak storywriting if you ask me. If they incorporate such a doomsday scenario into the show, they better act on it completely, and don't create some weak plothole where he can still save the Avatar Cycle and Avatar State. We'll definately be seeing Sozin's comet again. The Avatar State, I'm not so sure. I'm trying to keep my mind open, so I still find both options feasible, but I'm definetaly hoping the Avatar State is gone foregood. Not because it has a chance of ruining the ship I like, but because I'd find it better and more original storywriting. Oh definately, I'm not saying they don't need Aang. But, with the Avatar Cycle being broken and all, I would also find it a very good ethical lesson if Aang would in the end teach the world to fend for itself. Kinda like Jesus really, he wasn't there to take away the pain of all mankind, but tell them how to do that themselves. We, in our world don't look up to the Messiah, or God, all the time in hope that He will take away our troubles with a flash of magic, we ask Him for guidance to do it ourselves. We rely on ourselves to take care of our own bussiness, and I think it would be fitting if the people in the Avatar world would end up learning that for themselves as well. But do we look up to some higher creature to end our wars all the time? No. We act and we suffer the consequences. And look where it has lead us. We needed two worldwars and a cold war to achieve it, but the West is now a haven of peace and prosperity. The world might not be, but give them a couple of centuries to develop the way we did, and I'm willing to bet it can end up like the West as well. The key to that is learning. To learn, you need to experience the consequences of your actions. And that's just pretty much impossible if you always look up to one mystical creature to solve your problems all the time. So perhaps Aang could be a little bit like Jesus, teaching the people to live on their own, instead of being just some superweapon to end all conflicts all the time. Parallelism still does not warrant a Yin/Yang analogy IMO. Because it still doesn't make them opposites, it still doesn't mean they complement each other in some way. Aang's story could easily exist without Zuko, and Zuko doesn't require Aang to be part of his either (at least, not anymore). So it still doesn't fit. Now, you can argue that noone is completely Yin or Yang, so the analogies could still be applied. But don't you see the enormous drawback to such an application of the philosophy? That way, EVERYTHING can be explained as Yin/Yang. If there are no absolute criteria to match, then this philosophy is utterly vague and useless, because it can always be interpreted one way or another. Trully matching Yin/Yang conflicts would be for example the inner conflicts individual characters go through. Aang goes through the choice of Power vs Love. This conflict couldn't exist if one of these two was missing, so they complement each other. Both choices have opposite results, yet both need each other to exist, since without opposites, there's nothing. That is an accurate portrayal of Yin and Yang. Zuko's path to enlightenment can be explained as Yin/Yang. On one side he sees the horrors of war, he experience love, kindness and compassion. On the other side is his desire to go home, his patriotism, his desire to be loved by his father. These two are also direct opposites, as both have opposite consequences and opposite emotions creating them. They create conflict, but they still need each other to exist, because without each other, there would be no conflict. Zuko would either be entirelly compassionate, good, loving etc (Yin) or patriotic, impuslive, apathetic etc (Yang). They conflict each other, but they are still both needed to make the other exist. The reason why both Aang and Zuko are still unable to correctly deal with this conflict is because they haven't found balanc in themselves yet. They either have to much Yin (in this case, Aang) or too much Yang (Zuko), which means there is an imbalance in them. And to attain this balance, they need to restore the balance between their Yin and Yang. That's what the philosophy teaches, anyway. Those are proper examples of Yin/Yang analogies. But in almost every case of applying it to two individuals, the analogy fails. Zuko and Katara are not Yin and Yang. Aang and Katara are not Yin and Yang. Zuko and Aang are not Yin and Yang. The only thing in the show that was directly related to Yin and Yang was the nature of Waterbending (and possibly Firebending). The Moon- and Oceanspirit circle each other and create the different tides, the stance of the moon influencing the control Waterbenders have over water. So what does that teach us? Nature influences bending. That is the only solid use of Yin and Yang used in the story so far. And I wish people would just leave it at that, but no, now that two episodes had mentions of an Eastern philosophy, suddenly everything is about Yin and Yang. I wish people would just leave philosophies in their respective contexts, but I guess that's just wishfull thinking on my part. You take these things personally far too often, yice. I wasn't attacking your use of philosophy, I was attacking the general appliance of these philosophies throughout the fandom. It's nothing personal. Did you not read what I wrote in my last post? I DON'T want Zuko to give up pursuing his father's love and his destiny as prince of the Firenation. I want Zuko to remain Zuko, I don't want him to ride along with the gAang on Appa's back. I love Zuko way more at this point than I would have loved him if he had chosen Aang in the season finale. Perhaps. As long as it isn't the same Katara vs Avatar State chakra thing again. If Aang end up sacrificing Katara, fine, if the writers manage to pull if of in a satisfying way, I probably won't even be bothered all that much, but what I don't want them to do is recycle already used plots. The whole chakra conflict reached its climax in the season finale, so it has lost its originality. Aang choosing to stop Ozai, no doubt. I never contested that. The only thing I am contesting is that: A) the only way to accomplish this is through sacrifice. B) Aang having to choose between the Avatar State and Katara all over again is such a likely thing to happen. The concept has already been used, the conflict has been resolved, I see no reason from a writer's point of view to reintroduce a plot that has already had its climax. The most logical thing to do is move on to the next plot, in this case being either the total removal of the Avatar State, or just the temporary removal of it.
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