yiceman
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Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 25, 2007 21:19:23 GMT -5
So you really do want to see then end of the Avatar cycle in this world then? Well I don't, I like the concept, ships aside. I can see what you mean about the world learning for itself, yet if the Avatar cycle was to end, I think there would be a better way to do it. Something a little more...noble...perhaps. I just don't see them sacrificing such a huge concept just for the sake of this one relationship. Not something that is so important and huge in this world, and not just because Aang chose his attachment to Katara over the Avatar State. It just doesn't look good for his character. I mean, if they wanted to show it as the power of love over power itself, I feel they would have handled the situation differently. I think, first of all, it would need to have been a fully open canon relationship, otherwise there's just too many doubts as to whether it was worth it or not in our minds. And, they also would have handled the clearing of the chakra that appeared unfair to all parties; meaning, no matter our ship preferences, we would have seen the Guru's teachings as unfair and rediculous. They would have to make us all absolutely sure that Aang had made the right choice; that he was doing what is right by being rid of a harmful thing. Because right now, everyone has their own opinions. I guess you think he made the right choice, but I don't. I think it would have been for the better for him to take the 2 minutes it would have taken to clear the chakra before going to see if Katara was alright. Storywise, that would have been boring, but ethically it seems the right choice. That's how we have to divide this thing: what makes a better story and what is better for the characters. So to continue, storywise it just isn't worth it. One person's romantic interests do not seem worth destroying the Avatar forever. Once it's gone, it's gone for good, and we have to be completely certain that it's for the better. Otherwise, there would be too many people thinking that Aang made a foolish choice that was harmful tot he world's wellbeing. But that's not how they presented it. It looked more like Aang was so worried about Katara, he didn't think or even care about the circumstances of his role as the Avatar. He didn't consider all sides of the matter, didn't even to think at all. It wasn't a choice made out of wisdom or foresight on what would be better for the world. He didn't think of ANYthing but saving Katara. That's why I don't buy it as a means to end the Avatar cycle, because it really does not reflect well on Aang. Whether the world would be better with or without the Avatar is a complicated question, one for which an answer is not easily found, and it's just too ambiguous for the concept of Aang causing the permanent death of the Avatar cycle unintentionally by basically ignoring the words of those who know better than him about it. Maybe if Aang actually thought the world would be better off, and made the conscious choice to end the cycle by sacrificing himself and getting killed in the Avatar State. Maybe if his love for Katara was seen as a sure thing, one on which no questions of doubt could be placed, so we know he did it out of knowledge for what he thought would be better for the two of them. Maybe if the Guru's teachers were seen as unfair and silly. But this is not the case. What Aang did was an accident. If the Avatar cycle is gone, it was because he blundered and made a mistake, one which was entirely sparked out of feelings of attachment for Katara. Despite how obvious her feelings may seem to you, it's not a sure thing. Aang tossed aside his chance to master the Avatar State and potentially forever killed the Avatar cycle just on his own feelings. In truth, he did it because Katara was supposedly in danger, so his mind was so clouded he didn't even think of the reprocussions of his actions. And the Guru seemed very fair and considerate for the most part to me. I know you think he should have elaborated on what exactly "let her go" means(and I maintain that he didn't elaborate because Aang understood exactly what it was he had to do), but the Guru appeared a very kind and considerate individual, who sought out Aang to help him with something that was causing him great harm. He really and truly helped Aang; Avatar State aside, clearing the other chakras really seemed to give Aang the extra boost of strength and confidence in himself he needed. So no, him running off on the whim that Katara might be in danger from an elderly teacher who seemed very fair, and then getting himself killed, thus accidently destroying something that has been a solid foundation for the world they live in for generations and has, so far, done nothing but help maintain the balace, just is not an appropriate way to convey the message that the world is better off. The Avatar cycle ending forever because one young Avatar refused to do what thousands of Avatars before him have done is not a respectable image for Aang. And I really must say I think you're focusing too much on the active role of the Avatar. I don't see it as a person who goes around policing the world, stopping all wars and ending all conflicts. Kyoshi is evidence of that, since she didn't bother stopping Chin until he got close enough to be a personal threat. I really don't think Avatars care that much about things like civil disputes for power, because it's impossible to get involved in that without appearing to take sides, and it's just not worth it to the rep of the Avatar. That's why, I think, that Kyoshi didn't even really try to stop Chin. She just used the Avatar State to create an island for her people, basically saying "Don't bring your crap here." It was just kind of an accident Chin died ;p I actually see the Avatar as more of a passive role. Nowhere as it been shown any of the past Avatars actually taking a deep involvement in any politics, stepping in and saying "Don't fight!" I see the role of the Avatar being more as a physical representation of balance in the world. The Spirit of the Earth embodied in one person, of all elements and of none, with deep connections to the spirits and full personal control and enlightenment. It's obvious the road there is rocky, but the end result is a person that the people can really look up to. The Avatar doesn't fly around stopping crime, but speaks when needed. The people, hearing the words of the Avatar, are more likely to consider what he or she says, just because of who the Avatar is. And, after all of the spiritual training in reaching enlightenment and getting rid of attachment (most likely to personal causes, opinions and customs, so that they can view things in a more fair and unbiased manner instead of just imposing their opinion), chances are the Avatar is the most wise and purely un-biased voice there would be in the world, meaning the words of the Avatar are more than likely the best and most fair. So knowing this, knowing what the Avatar stands for, knowing that the Avatar has no personal ties to any one purpose or cause, they are more likely to be discouraged if the Avatar disagrees, and encouraged if the Avatar agrees. The active role of the Avatar is to step in when things get way out of hand and balance is threatened, such as a world war on this scale, in which an entire people has already been eradicated. Earth benders squabbling with earth benders is of no great matter, because overall balance is not threatened. Only if there is massacre or the foundation of the entire wellbeing of the nation is threatened should the Avatar switch from voiced dissaproval to active involvement. It took two world wars and a cold one to bring peace in the west, and quite frankly, there must be a better way than 40 years of ruthless fighting followed by another 40 of arms races, ego-wars, geurilla warfare, and a lot more sneaky, unhappy things. I don't think peace needs to be forced by a decade of fighting, and it is entirely possible for alternative means. As economies began booming, industry began exploding into action, honestly the desire for wealth and money would open trade and overwhelm any older notions of world domination. Why not have someone who can help maintain peace as that happens? And what would be the consequences of the Avatar's death in this world? I think that would be the end of bending and all things spiritual, actually. There are bigger things in this fantasy world than just the mortal world, just imagine the effect if the Spirit of the Earth incarnate itself is destroyed? WHat on earth would happen? I feel all things spiritual would fade away, including bending, and that would just be a shame, really. I don't know if that is what Mike and Bryan want to see happen to the world they created...to basically change it from a fantasy to another gritty reality. I think they want their world to live on, and the Avatar is too big a part of that to die now. But that's an extremely long tanget that doesn't really belong on this board. I'd like to point out that we don't know the effect of the sun and the moon an the Avatar who's original element is air. The moon seemed to have no effect on Aang during the season one finale, other than when Zhao stuffed the koi fish in the bag, which I feel was more because the spirit itself was in danger, as seen by Yue, and non bender, and her similar reaction at the time (also consider that Aang's connection to these spirits and the spirit world would be gone if the Avatar State is). I think it more likely that since Aang is not in heart and soul and original firebender, the sun has no effect on him. Otherwise, Roku probably would have mentioned it. As for the story, I'm sure you agree that we pretty much have to see Sozin's comet in action, so I don't see it as a fulfilling ending if we just have an Aang and Ozai firefight. We want to see Aang using all 4 elements equally, neh? I think the Avatar State and A Sozin's Comet powered Ozai would be evely matched. Aang with 3 elements under his belt is still getting beat up by Azula and even Zuko, so more elements does not mean he's automatically stronger. That's why I think it will come back; that and because I don't see them killing it off in that fashion. As for whether it's a loophole or not, that really depends on whether Aang actually died or not. On the one hand we have a few rumors of conformation that he did, on the other is the whole Avatar Yangchen comic thing...so really we won't know til season 3. I'm going to avoid philosophical references from now on, since you seem to know more about than I do, and it's too much of a hassle to get lectured on what I'm doing wrong I'll just stick with character parallelism then, as seem mostly in The Storm and Crossroads of Destiny. Here's how I see it: --Both are separated from home. --Both felt they suffered injustice --I see Aang mastering the Avatar State parallel to Zuko learning to control lightning. --Both have heavy duties and responsibilities which could ride on their soldiers, should they choose to accept them. --Both are more occupied in seeking the affection of someone, and both of those quests for affection have been harmful in attainting their responsibilities. And thus, I feel that both will rise up to their responsibilities after realizing they have to let go of their clinging obsessions. The tough thing about it is, both have suffered very different circumstances. Zuko has always been portrayed in a darker light, which is why his obsession appears to be a lost cause, but Aang is considered still to be doing the best thing by many people, just because it makes him happy. Gaining his father's affection would make Zuko happy, but it's obvious that it isn't for the best. Getting Katara would make Aang happy, but it's harder to see that this isn't what is for the best. And I don't mean for Zuko to just up and join the gAang, forgetting his right to the throne. I'm talking strictly about him seeking his father's respect once more. Nobody really wants to see Zuko get back on good terms with his father if it means abandoning all that is good about him. Pursuing his destiny and right to the throne and seeking the affections of the man who scared and banished him are two different things. And I don't feel that the deal with the chakras and Avatar State reached it's climax and conclusion just yet. I don't feel satisfied, there are too many questions left. It's not concluded, or else we wouldn't still be talking about it. They'll bring it back up; there was NO conclusion. Aang got shot in the back, and we don't even know what really happened when he tried to open the Avatar State at the end. It's not over, man. There was no resolution at all. Absolutely none. What. So. Ever. So...to actually bring things back onto the purpose and topic of this thread...first of all I'd like to say that was a good post you did above, you had me scratching my head a moment. I feel satisfied in my answers and beliefs though. In all honestly the chances are still higher that Aang will find some way to at least avoid letting go of Katara than the alternative, but I'm so firmly convinced that it would tell a better story to do as I suggest that at this point I would still think I was right if it didn't actually happen. Unless they pull it off in a way that doesn't dissapoint, which they've been successful at so far. But the just of it is, it is a better ending for Aang's character not to recieve Katara's romantic affections at the end of the show. I've given numerous sound and solid reasons, and so far no one has even come close to disproving them. So technicalities aside, the original point remains standing tall. The only protest that comes close is the contentless claim of "I think Aang can have both Katara and save the world!" Aang getting rewarded with his crush has no character development, the idea of romantic love being crucial is not the intended point of the creators, and quite frankly the fanship has DRAMATICALLY bloated Aang and Katara's relationship, by claiming it's "epic," "pure," and "true love," when they really aren't going to impose such heavy meanings on such young characters in such a light story, where romance is only a side dish.
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Post by spook on Feb 26, 2007 6:44:57 GMT -5
dang, Yice. Where the hell do you find the time to write 10-page essays like that? Man, reading through the entire thing already takes 15 minutes.
Well, you see, the problem with your analysis here is that you are acting as if it were a conscious choice. It wasnt, and it wasn't presented as such. Aang didn't sacrifice the Avatar State because he wanted to. Yes, Aang made a mistake by leaving the Guru, one he payed for dearly in the end, but that's how good stories tend to be told. The protagonists make mistakes, for which they end up paying the consequences, and through those consequences they become stronger and wiser. Perhaps not physically stronger in Aang's case, but definately mentally stronger.
It doesn't really concern me how this all reflects on Aang's image. Hate him or love him for it, he made a choice to which there is no going back. So "what ifs" aren't really relevent anymore. If Aang has trully lost the Avatar State, he should focus on different means to defeat the Firenation, rather than beating himself up for making the wrong choice. He's done that before (The Storm) and he's had huge character development since then, so I think he should be strong enough now to take the hit and move on.
I don't even think what you and I want in this matter is so entirely different. You want a sort of becoming of age kinda story, where he is able to set aside his temptations and obsessions to do what is right. I feel sort of the same way, but rather than sacrificing parts of his character that had huge development since season 1, I'm hoping more in the direction of him being able to think of solutions without having to fall back on one thing all the time. I want him to become mature enough to think of other possible ways to beat the Firenation, rather than just the stereotypical one. I want him to use his brains rather than his brawns. That would really make me admire him. Everybody with enough power can Kamehameha his opponent into oblivion, but I know of very little protagonists who have actually used their brains to defeath their enemies.
Perhaps it won't be as visually entertaining as it would if Aang still had the Avatar State, but I'm not going to draw conclusions yet. Fact is, we know very little of how powerful firebenders really become when empowered by the Comet. I still think Aang would kick Ozai's Equus asinus, especially if he does get a powerboost from the Comet (which makes sense, because he IS a firebender. Even your man Pathik confirmed this). So it's too early to judge on this matter.
I don't really think it matters what the Avatar's original element is. It defines his attire and his looks, but that's about it. Aang isn't just an airbender, he's a waterbender, earthbender and firebender as well. He might feel more comfortable with air, since this is his most practiced and well-known element, but that still doesn't mean it's any more important than his other bending disciplines.
The reason why the moon didn't have an effect on him is because he merged with Lah, the Oceanspirit. He was basically the ocean, so I guess that cut him free of the rules normal waterbender were tied to.
And I don't know if Aang's connection with the Spiritworld is broken. That seems hardly likely, with the flash and all we saw when Katara revived him. So perhaps he still does have contact with the Spirits, even when the Avatar Cycle and Avatar State are gone. I mean, the big, purple, cosmic guy did close his eyes and fall to earth when Aang got struck by lightning, so that must mean something.
Now that I think of it, that could be a logical explanation. The Avatar State is the combination of the power of all previous Avatars. The Avatar Cycle consists of all the Avatars before him. If Aang dies in the Avatar State, his previous incarnations disappear, as shown in "The Avatar State". So, with the incarnations themselves gone, where would the power of Avatar State come from? If there are no previous incarnations left, then the Avatar State has lost its source of power, thus rendering it useless. But that doesn't mean Aang has lost his connection to the Spiritworld, because in contrast with the Avatar State, this has never been portrayed to be an ability that is connected to his previous lives. Aang goes to the Spiritworld by himself, not with the help of Roku, Kyoshi or anyone else. So it is possible Aang still has the ability to go to the Spiritworld, even if the Avatar Cycle is broken.
Well, that's where I disagree actually. Zuko getting his father's love back will finally allow him to see things clearly, without his perspectives being blocked by his homesickness, depression and traumatized past. Then he would finally be able to see for himself that he is on the wrong side. Which would be for the best I think, because I just hate the idea of some other character (Katara, Iroh) having to open his eyes for him and show him how wrong the Firenation is. I want him to find that out for himself.
As for Aang "getting" Katara, I don't really see that as such big a deal, when it comes to what's "right". First of all, Aang already kinda has her. It's obvious Katara loves Aang a lot, even if not romantically, and this has already helped out Aang many times. So if this love between them would gradually change into something romantic, which it IMO already has in the season 2, I don't see what the big deal would be. It's not like Aang would suddenly forget about his duties just to make out with her. Their relationship has never been portrayed in such a negative light, so I don't see why this would change in season 3.
Aang does have to get his priorities straightened out though. And the best way to do that is through character development. And with having faced a (near-) death experience, I think there is plenty of reason to believe Aang will learn some viable lessons in the coming episodes. But the idea that this would require the sacrifice of the most important emotional bond in the show, which has so far always had a positive influence on Aang, seems rather strange to me. And please, don't reply with "I just want him to lose his romantic attachments, not his platonic ones" because I do not believe emotions can simply be cut in half like that. His romantic feelings for her are inpired by his platonic feelings, just like his platonic feelings for her are partly inspired by his romantic feelings. To just split those feelings in half and say "this part is right, this part isn't" sounds way too simplistic. Nobody is trying to disprove them. I certainly am not. I'm just offering an alternative view, which shows that his romantic feelings for Katara can be interpreted in a different way.
Well, I do think of Aang and Katara's relationship as epic. Maybe because I just view their relationship differently than you do. You insist on splitting their relationship in different categories, well I don't. When I see a young girl clinging to her best friend, who is in demigod mode and mere seconds away from murdering a group of people, and the only reason she's doing it is because she loves him, than epic springs to mind. When I see the same girl helping the same boy overcoming a serious depression by delivering a baby, then "pure" is one of the words that comes to mind. When this girl is portrayed as the reincarnation of an entire people's love, epic comes to mind. When the boy tries to let all that love go and dies because of it, with only the girl being able to bring him back from the dead, then epic yet again springs to mind.
I know that fandoms tend to exagerate, overemphasize and misinterpret things all the time, but in Aang and Katara's case, this just isn't true. The fandom has already been given so many things emphasizing on their bond of love, that it's no longer needed to overemphasize or misinterpret things. You don't have to see this, you can interpret it in a vastly different way, but viewing Aang and Katara's bond as epic is a valid interpretation, even if it is a bit melodramatic.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 26, 2007 20:49:42 GMT -5
My point is that the death of the Avatar cycle is too huge a thing to be the result of a mistake. Heroes make mistakes and pay for them, but I don't think the world should.
In the end, perhaps it might vanish by another means, but I really don't think it's gone now. Quite frankly, the role of the Avatar itself is being portrayed as that of a savior, and a good thing. Avatar State aside, remember that the death of one means the death of the other. If Aang's "powerup" is gone for good, then so is the Avatar. I would rather thing that, for the time being, the AS is out of his reach and was damaged, but since Aang was not actually killed permanently, the connection could be mended by the end of the series. Even if he doesn't use it against Ozai, it's too important and too mysterious to be dismissed as a bad thing gone for good.
My personal opinion is that it is a tool, not a weapon as it is used for creation just as well as destruction, that stems from need, and is a crucial part of the Avatar. Your opinion differs, and that just goes to show you that there are too many different ways to interpret the idea that they can't kill it off now. They'd need to elaborate that what happened was for the best before we can accept that what happened was a good thing.
And the added side effect of the complete destruction of the Avatar cycle only makes things worse. That would REALLY require some explaination, otherwise many of us just wouldn't be able to get past the fact that Aang is responsible for the destruction of this spiritual thing that has existed for countless years in this fantasy world. Looking at Aang happy because he gained Katara's affections, when that was the entire reason why the Avatar cycle would only make it worse.
If Aang is responsible for the death of the Avatar State because of what happened in the season 2, and then winds up with Katara's affections in the end, he is being rewarded for his mistake. The world will suffer the consiquences of his actions, while Aang is happy. Whether the world would be better off or not is just speculation, because so far the Avatar has been presented as a very positive influence on the world. It's not good to imply that you can abandon responsibilities and be rewarded for them, and just let others suffer the consequences of your actions because they would be the better for it.
That's why I don't like it; it seems like Aang is getting rewarded with the very thing he was advised to let go, while the world suffers. Because even without the AS, the clearing of the chakras seemed to greatly help Aang for the better. It's for his better that he gives up attachment, and I interpreted that as meaning he should give up romantic persuit of Katara, because I don't think it's possible to completely obliterate attachment to someone and still be IN love with them.
So I'm thinking in terms of "either/or," whereas you're seeking to compromise. I think it's better in this situation that there isn't any compromise, since it helps the character grow more. I would prefer Aang to rise up to his duties and responsibilities, because that is an image that actually applies to the real world, not this notion of "put your personal desires first and your duties will get done anyways." So, if Aang does learn to get his priorities straight, you ask why should he not get Katara in the end?
Because, I answer, that seems to contradict the original message too much for my liking. 'Let her go. Let your attachment flow away. Forever forgotten." does not sound like "just find a new way to love and things will work out." The idea wasn't that ambiguous, and I would think that a man who has studied this for over 100 years might know if there were any alternatives.
The fact remains Aang ran away from his duties to seek his personal desires. To just magically give him both seems silly. I would rather Aang choose Katara and see the world go to crap than see him choose her and get both. I don't really want to see him choose the world and still magically get Katara because that teaches him nothing about sacrifice. I would most of all rather see him choose the world and rise up to his responsibilities as a better, more confident individual who for the first time truly accepts himself for what he is.
As for the AS coming back in the end, the idea of Ozai with Sozin's Comet backing him up fighting Aang with the AS was just something I thought would be cool to see. Considering that this is an action-driven show, it seems like an appropriately explosive ending that will leave us breathless. I would honestly prefer a 1-on-1 fight between Aang and Ozai at the end than a Teamwork message, because quite frankly things seem to get a little confusing when there's too many peopel fighting at once on this show, like in Lake Laogi. I think all of us want to see Aang using all 4 elements to fight, and Ozai's been presented as the main villain so long we kind of have to see them go head to head. Now, granted, Aang fighting Ozai without powerups would be cool, but with them...that would be one heck of a show, neh?
As for finding a creative and thoughtful way to win, they're probably do that. Most likely that's Sokka's job, he is the Plan Guy. I just think that, in the end, no matter how creatively they get into the FN, Aang has to face Ozai. And I think we need to see Sozin's Coment in action, meaning that it would be kind of a pointless idea if Aang gets the boost too. Then they might as well not have added it at all, and Aang would rely too heavily on fire instead of all 4 elements.
So if the AS does come back, I can see a way that it can be implemented as more than a tacky powerup. There's this bookseries called The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind, in which the hero, Richard, has powers that can only be used in situations of dire need. Otherwise, he relies on his mind. Most of the time he solves the problems through deep thought and analysis, and uses his powers to counter the weapons of his enemies. You might like it, I'd recommend looking for the first book, called Wizard's First Rule.
So, as to just toss an idea out there should the tv show continue for 3 seasons, the AS could be something that is only used in the greatest times of need, when all other means of success are blocked. But then, if Aang only gets the AS back in the last episode and they hadn't planned any future seasons until recently, it won't matter if Aang can just glow it up whenever he wants.
As for Zuko, your idea is a plausible one, which is better than him being guided into the right path by Iroh or Aang or anyone else. I never suggested that though. In fact, my own theory is that Zuko catches Aang, brings him to Ozai, and when Ozai still rejects him, Zuko realizes it's a lost cause. He then sets Aang free, and goes to find his own path, which eventually leads him to trying to seek honor his own way. Either way though, he gives up his foolish persuit of his father's affections, seeing that they are not what he really needs, which ties in with the parallelism I was talking about.
Now as for the epic stuff, I just think it gets way out of hand. I think the assumtion of true love are way too serious to be applied to these two characters who haven't even come clean with their feelings, and it's definently way overboard for this type of show. Romance is always more realistically and lightly represented in the series, and we can see by the School Time Shipping that they basically find all the hububb that goes on in these ships as funny. They don't take it as seriously as we do, so they're definently not trying to imply those epic ideas. Meaning, no matter how you interpret it, that wasn't the way it's SUPPOSED to be seen. I think it's safe to say they're keeping things light, and never once even used the L-word until the season finale.
It's a coming of age story, and true love just does not have any place in those kinds of tales. Why? Because it's such a clouded idea that to imply that young teens can find lifelong bonds of passion on epic proportions can be vastly misinterpreted by the young teens watching. These kinds of stories genuinly prefer to portray romance in a way that...y'know...can actually be APPLIED to the REAL world! They show kids getting dumped, having crushes, having relationships, getting through hard times, finding a solid love at last, they DON'T show two kids who magically find the best kind of love EVER their first try, when so few people manage to find this after a lifetime of searching.
I'm just saying, take it easy. It's not supposed to be taken this seriously. It's not supposed to be true love. That would be an innapropriate message, one which could damage the young viewer's ideas of romance for a long while, perhaps forcing them to stay with their first lover far longer than they should instead of realizing that these things take work, they don't just come all at once.
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Post by spook on Feb 27, 2007 6:55:07 GMT -5
If Aang is responsible for the death of the Avatar State because of what happened in the season 2, and then winds up with Katara's affections in the end, he is being rewarded for his mistake. The world will suffer the consiquences of his actions, while Aang is happy. Whether the world would be better off or not is just speculation, because so far the Avatar has been presented as a very positive influence on the world. It's not good to imply that you can abandon responsibilities and be rewarded for them, and just let others suffer the consequences of your actions because they would be the better for it. That's why I don't like it; it seems like Aang is getting rewarded with the very thing he was advised to let go, while the world suffers. Because even without the AS, the clearing of the chakras seemed to greatly help Aang for the better. It's for his better that he gives up attachment, and I interpreted that as meaning he should give up romantic persuit of Katara, because I don't think it's possible to completely obliterate attachment to someone and still be IN love with them. Well, I could argue that "learning to let go" is still not as clearly defined as you make it out to be, adding to the cliffhanger effect of the finale, but we've been there and already discussed that to death. Now, I'm not arguing that Aang will get Katara's affection because he lost the Avatar State, the only thing I'm really arguing for is that the relationship between Aang and Katara will keep on being displayed as it was in the previous two seasons: as a good thing. Because unlike you, I think it would be way to inconsistent for the main relationship in the show to suddenly turn into a bad thing, when it has always been portrayed as a good thing. Even in the finale, the symbolism was quite clear. Aang tries to let go of Katara and the only result it has is that he dies and returns to the very point he started, complementing the whole message that "love is stronger than power" which was written all over the Crossroads of Destiny. To now suddenly turn back a chapter and make his bond with Katara seem all bad again would be strange and just wouldn't feel right with someone who just likes to see a consequential story being told, like me. Whether or not he ends up getting Katara's affection is a different point entirely, totally up to the creators. I wouldn't find it all that surprising, but that's just my opinion. And I just don't see it as a "reward" for anything, I see it as the climax to two seasons of relationship development. One I would find lots more satisfying that an inconsistent turn, which doesn't only necessitate the repeat of an already used plot, but doesn't make any sense at all if you look back at the previous two seasons. But I see your point and I understand it. It's not really something I can counter with empirical evidence, since it totally relies on how you perceive the story. And we're just never going to agree on that. If Aang hadn't tried to let go of Katara in CoD, if the plot hadn't already reached it's climax, if there hadn't been the screaming subtext of "love is stronger than power", then I might even have agreed with you. But I just don't on this matter. Regardless of which ethical message is better to the young kiddies, the lesson of love or the lesson of sacrifice (or however you put it), I would still opt for a consistent story any day of the week. It might not have sounded ambiguous, but the fact that it totally contradicts the fourth Chakra, something that was made plethorically clear by the creators themselves, does. If letting go does entail giving up love, then that wouldn't feel right, since the creators still wouldn't have explained that contradiction, one they so humouresly pointed out. Heh, it's funny you would mention that. You see, Roku only said that the Comet makes firebenders stronger. Not that it enhances their firebending. Firebenders can only use fire, so naturally this incredible power can only be harnessed with firebending by them. But the Avatar can control all elements, meaning that this power could possibly enhance his other bending skills as well. Well, then I still disagree. The reason the creators mock us about shipping is because it doesn't really need all that much debating. All canon-related ships have been very clearly presented since the first episode of Avatar. Sokka had Yue and Suki, Zuko had Jin and Katara and Aang have each other. It's always been that simple, so I guess it just amuses them that the fandom is making such a big fuss about such a simple issue. Now, as for how it's "supposed" to be seen, I have given you examples of Katara and Aang's relationship which can easily interpreted as epic, which you haven't addresses. "The Desert", "The Serpent's Pass", "The Crossroads of Destiny", all of them have scenes which clearly emphasize how deep their bond runs. Why? Because that is what we are supposed to see. Aang and Katara's bond IS the deepest, most serious bond of the show. You don't even have to see the obvious romantic subtexts to see this. Well, that's ironic, because I think that's exactly what has been portrayed. I've said it a dozen times already and I'll say it again, Aang and Katara form the OTP of this show. Their bond runs the deepest, it's most serious, the most emphasized and has obvious epic connotations about it. You can denounce it as mere kiddylove, but that still goes directly against what has been shown by the show. Season 2, especially the second half of it, has plethorically shown how deep their bond runs. It might seem unbelievable because of their age, an opinion I do not share, but it is still obviously and bluntly there. I personally don't even consider it a matter of interpretation, since it has so obviously been the authorial intent to portray it as such, but people will always disagree, so whatever.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 27, 2007 20:31:44 GMT -5
We basically agree to disagree on the main points, but I guess we could still iron out a few little things. I wonder why no one else ever adds their own opinions to this debate? Any outside voices would be nice instead of spook and I talking ourselves to death until season 3 If everything was constantly consistent in these kinds of stories, things would be dull and boring. I don't think a ship that can be nicknamed "Ol' Reliable" because it's always there is really what these kinds of writers are looking for.Nothing's ever consistent in stories, or else no progress would be made and nothing interesting would ever happen. And I don't really find a 3 season crawl towards romance as a particularly interesting concept. I mean, they've lived with each other every day for almost half a year...it doesn't take that long to start a romance! Especially if those encredibly strong affections you claim are so obviously there are indeed true. The only way I could comprehend a romance taking this long to develop is if the two people HATED each other to start, and it took 6 months of living together to get anywhere. Even then I would think it's too slow for a story. If it's meant to be for the characters, it would have happened a long time ago. After at least 3-4 months of being together every day, I have to think that maybe the romantic feelings just are not there on Katara's part. Realistically they don't take that long, and it would require a lot to get me to accept it as simply a matter of suspense until the end. Because it's really not very suspeseful, imo; it is just starting to feel like it could take forever before they ever actually get anywhere. And if it's as obvious as you claim, there's obsolutely no suspense at all, and I truly can't understand how you couldn't find it getting old if it's a sure thing that just takes for-friggin'-ever. Consistency does not apply to this situation. It would be inconsistent if Aang lost romantic feelings for Katara in a single episode and started crushing after someone else in that same episode. It would not be inconsistent if this was portrayed in a realistic manner, with an appropriate frame of time and reason of explaination behind it. I've read a book series where two characters thought they were going to get married for the first three books, before finally realizing by book 4 they don't actually love each other anymore. It would not be inconsistent. Aang's choice would be the result of a serious reflection and decision on what would be for the good of the world, not just a whim. Even if it is sudden, it is not inconsisted, because it makes sense and is a probable scenario. And I still feel that if anything were to happen, it couldn't possibly take this long. So to keep on like this if it's "meant to be" just does not fit in my eyes. I really and truly see Aang and Katara's bond (which I never denied) as one of friendship. All of those examples you listed from The Desert to CoD were merely signs of friendship. Not a one of them was shown in a romantic light. Each of those scenes could have applied to two related family members or two straight males/two straight females. I've seen equal bonds in war movies and countless books, where it never evolved into romance. Their bond is strong, but they are friends still. Aside from Aang's crush, I see nothing that insists on any romantic attachments between them. In my eyes, they have a great relationship already, one which really does not need to evolve into romance, and I've given a number of reasons why I feel it would be better not to cross into that area. Their current relationship is not a bad thing, I agree, which is why I don't want it to change. I don't dislike their bond, I just dislike the idea of making it romantic. That is what needs to be let go of, the persuit of changing an already strong relationship into something else which could interfere with an important part of Aang. Power vs love doesn't apply; Aang isn't seeking this power for himself, because he wants to be strong. He's seeking a way to stop the war. It's not Power vs Love, it's Attachment vs Salvation. Aang NEEDS this power. Katara herself said it in the Earth King. "If we go up against the Fire Nation, you need to be ready." He doesn't need it for himself, he needs it for the world. There's too much at stake right now, and they need everything they can get to stop the Fire Nation. I must point out that Power vs Love is not a message. At no point does anyone in the real world have to make this choice, so it's completely irrelevant to the real world. It's not a good moral, whereas the alternative, Aang accepting his duties of the Avatar over what would make him immediately happy, could be easily applied to growing teens. Drugs might make you happy, slacking off might make you happy, having unprotected sex might make you happy, but are these good reasons when you have respinsibilities to take care of? No. If there is a direct choice between living up to the responsibilities that many many other people rely on you for and doing what makes you immediately happy, the first is the better choice. As for contradicting chakras, the 7th didn't say "give up love," it's "give up attachment." A person could have had attachment for the house they grew up in, which they would have to let go by forgetting it. A person could have attachment to a particular government, and the solution would be letting go by forgetting this attachment and being able to look on all governments equally without greatly favoring this one over others. By being rid of attachment to these things, the avatar can have a more practical and level outlook on them, without being overly close to one over the others. So he can live in his childhood home, but can not become devistated if it is destroyed, or rush out of his way, putting the world at risk to save this house. So it's not about letting go of love, it's about letting go of attachment. Aang's attachment just happens to be obsessive interest in Katara. The solution? Let go of those feelings, just like you would expect in every other situation of detrimental attachment. Once done, would that not mean that, after letting go of these obsessive feelings, Aang would just see Katara as a friend? As for the Comet, I don't see how a large ball of fire would make waterbending stronger, even in the Avatar. Aang never showed signs of airbening stronger at night. Were this the case, then Aang would be constantly pumped up without ever having a time when one element might be weaker than the others. I like to think that he would have to think of which elements to use based on his surroundings instead of him just being constantly strong. And I have to say, to assume that the creators purposefully chose romances that would be blatantly obvious and then laugh when we even THINK of denying the absolute truth of these ideas is just plain wrong. No writer ever wants to make anything obvious. It's just dumb if these pairings are completely clear without ever any room for speculation. Half the fandom would be lost if ships were all just totally obvious. It's a rediculous notion. All of the different opinions on this board should be your evidence that these things are not so obvious that they're cased in stone. I don't think you're really trying to insist that everyone who doesn't like kataang must be completely and totally WRONG, and that Mike and Bryan themselves are laughing at our stupidity, are you? Or are you just insisting that what you think is true IS indesputably true to the point that it becomes laughable we could possibly have our own opinions? I don't think you are, so I really suggest you rethink that statement that shipping is obvious. And I really think you should take back "I personally don't even consider it a matter of interpretation, since it has so obviously been the authorial intent to portray it as such..." News flash. It is a matter of interpretation. You're not an enlightened follower of the One True Faith, and neither am I. We're both probably wrong. It is not obvious; if it was, Aang and Katara would actually BE TOGETHER. But they're NOT. Their bond is obvious, but it is one of friendship. Their friendship is deep, their friendship is serious, but nothing other than Aang's crush has ever implicated romantic attachment. And it is Aang's crush that I find as kiddylove. I've never ever seen a hero in any story carry out this kind of obsessive crush for this long only to recieve the object of his attraction. No, they usually see the err of their relentless persuit, and become a better person by letting those feelings go. Their romance is not epic, because there is no romance. All there is, is Aang's crush. All there is, is a 12-year-old using a word he doesn't understand yet. The reincarnation of his love for the airbenders explains their close bonds of friendship, but his attraction began as a physical tugging in his loins. The love for the airbenders would not have just transfered to the first person he saw; and he was already crushing on her from the first minute he saw her. Why? Because she's pretty. No other reason. It might have evolved from there, but realistically it all started because Aang found her physically attactive.
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Post by spook on Feb 28, 2007 7:16:07 GMT -5
To be honest Yice, this discussion is starting to bore me. Let's try to focus on topics we haven't addresses yet, okay? This is getting rather repetitive. If everything was constantly consistent in these kinds of stories, things would be dull and boring. I don't think a ship that can be nicknamed "Ol' Reliable" because it's always there is really what these kinds of writers are looking for.Nothing's ever consistent in stories, or else no progress would be made and nothing interesting would ever happen. And I don't really find a 3 season crawl towards romance as a particularly interesting concept. I mean, they've lived with each other every day for almost half a year...it doesn't take that long to start a romance! Especially if those encredibly strong affections you claim are so obviously there are indeed true. The only way I could comprehend a romance taking this long to develop is if the two people HATED each other to start, and it took 6 months of living together to get anywhere. Even then I would think it's too slow for a story. If it's meant to be for the characters, it would have happened a long time ago. After at least 3-4 months of being together every day, I have to think that maybe the romantic feelings just are not there on Katara's part. Realistically they don't take that long, and it would require a lot to get me to accept it as simply a matter of suspense until the end. Because it's really not very suspeseful, imo; it is just starting to feel like it could take forever before they ever actually get anywhere. And if it's as obvious as you claim, there's obsolutely no suspense at all, and I truly can't understand how you couldn't find it getting old if it's a sure thing that just takes for-friggin'-ever. And all I can yet again say is: I disagree. First of all, I LOVE the consistency in Avatar. I hate it when writers throw in humongous, nonsensical plottwists just to stir up the audience, because it destroys the credidibility of the show. That's partly why I like this show: it's a kids' show, and it doesn't pretend to be anything else. It gives obvious hints and these hints are given for a reason. And that reason is not to throw in some great plottwist in the end to make everybody go "Ooh, we didn't see that one coming". This show has been honest since the very day it aired, which I absolutely adore. Now, you think the relationship is taking to long to develop, but I still don't. I still see it as a fairly obvious routine adopted by many shows. The relationship between Aang and Katara is the most important and emphasized one in the show, so it's only obvious it's not going to come to a conclusion untill the end of the series. That's basically what building expectation and anticipation is for. It they would have concluded it anytime sooner, the relationship would get stale and the development would come to a halt. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it never will. It only shows that Mike and Bryan are competent writers and know how to build a story. Well, you understand what point I'll be making here, with my explanation I just gave about this being an honest kids' story, but don't you see that what you just explained to be inconsistent is exactly what might have happened/happen in the story. Everybody is assuming that two seasons of character development would be flushed down the toilet if Aang opens the seventh Chakra, as if by some magical button his feelings for Katara just disappear into nowhere. But the real point I was trying to make, is that it would be inconsistent in its portrayal of Aang's relationship with Katara. Their bond has always been portrayed as something positive, from the very day he woke up from that iceburg. To now all of a sudden change 180 degrees and turn that relationship into the main obstacle of the show would pretty much be the most inconsistent displayal of storywriting imaginable. Besides, it's not like the entire finale portrayed the relationship as somehow harmfull, only Pathik explained it as such. In CoD it was emphasized even more how deep their bond runs, and to now all of a sudden take a step back again and turn it into something bad once more would feel very weird to me. Well, then that's just a difference in perspective again. Yes, Aang and Katara have been Best Friends Forever since the first episode and their feelings for each other are largely based on this friendship, but I feel the romantic parts are just too much emphasized on. From both Katara and Aang's sides. Think of it, whenever Aang displayed signs of affection in front or with Katara, there was always a response from her side. In "The Fortuneteller", Aang is the one crushing on Katara, but at the end their is the epiphany which we already have elaborated on too many times. In CoTL, there's not even really a response from Katara, as she is the one SUGGESTING they start being romantic with each other. That obviously points at something. Next, in The Serpent's Pass, Aang compares his feelings for Katara with the feelings he gets when he sees a happy family. Katara starts crying and embraces him. In City of Walls and Secrets, Aang tells Katara she's beautifull, Katara responds with a relieved, happy face and was obviously not going to say something bad, had Toph not interrupted her. In The Earth King, Aang tries to tell Katara he loves her, which she answers with a kiss, something she hasn't done for an entire season (if you don't count CoTL). So basically, there is ALWAYS a response. It is way beyond the point where it can be interpreted as merely something onesided, because the creators have just emphasized too much on Katara's feelings to make this true. When a crush is meant to be unreciprocated, this is very clearly telegraphed, like pretty much everything else is in this show. Meng's crush on Aang was unrequited, and this was clarified in such a ridiculously direct way that you can't perceive it in any other way. Katara's crush on Jet was unrequited, which became obvious when it was pointed out that he was merely using her. All these cases are obvious. Aang/Katara is not. This has been emphasized on enough to come to that conclusion. Now, as for our perception being different, you seem to insist on completely and utterly seperating these romantic feelings from the feelings which have been described in a more platonic sense. I don't. They have displayed romantic feelings for each other because they have such a deep bond of trust and friendship, just like these feelings of trust and friendship are partly inspired by their more romantic feelings. Katara clinged onto Aang in The Desert because she loves Aang, so much is clear, and IMO their have just been too many things pointing in the romantic direction to say that this love is purely platonic and nothing else. And I agree with Katara. Aang needs to be ready, and the Avatar State would make things a lot more easy than they would be otherwise, and I would happily grant Aang access to the Avatar State if it would make his job easier. That's not why I don't want him to control the Avatar State. I want him to not have the Avatar State because it would IMO make a vastly more interesting story. That's basically just it. Not having some cheatcode to rely upon all the time sounds like a much more compelling and interesting story. No matter what, it's a given that Aang will have beaten the Firelord before the end of season 3. No matter if he still has access to the Avatar State, he will beat Ozai. So storywise he doesn't really need the Avatar State. Yeah I know, lame argument. And yet again I can only point out that my opinion is different. I don't think Aang needs power to be a responsible Avatar, especially with that being a major theme of CoD, and I don't think it requires the absolute sacrifice of a lovelife either. This is getting tedious. I think we should stop debating what Aang "needs" to do to become a responsible and good Avatar, because we're going in circles. I can only counter you prespective by offering mine, and you can only counter mine by offering yours. This isn't going to take us anywhere. We have repeated ourselves so many times already, we can already pretty much predict what the other's replies are going to be. Well, the problem with the whole "see and love everybody as equal" theory is that it still doesn't provide a solution for the contradiction. Aang's love for Katara, and previously his love for the Airnomads, was displayed as an inherently good thing. Not merely his platonic love, or his romantic love, just his love. If the Avatar is supposed to be this great god who views everybody as equal, then why are individual attachments of love portrayed as a good thing? I just can't see something like that take a credible turn in the next season. Not only do I find the idea that platonic and romantic love can be seperated so easily and destroyed so easily ridiculous, it would also make the fourth Chakra look silly. Why not call it the chakra of friendship, if romantic love, which is still love and thus a part of the fourth Chakra, is a bad thing? The contradiction stands. If his romantic feelings for Katara are inherently bad, this still contradicts the fourth Chakra, which described his love for Katara as positive. Also, what intrigues me, why wouldn't the creators have provided us with the answer to this contradiction, if it was such an unimportant, trivial issue which doesn't interfere with the plot anyway? From a writer's point of view, there is no reason to withhold the answer to a question, if the answer is as trivial as you describe it to be anyway. The only reason I can see why a writer would do this, is because not all information has been given yet and pieces of the puzzle are still being withheld to be clarified in future episodes, when the plot has already been used and resolved. Which fits perfectly in this case, since not only did they create a thrilling conflict to fill the season finale with, it also added to the cliffhanger effect the finale had, which ensures that everybody will be waiting with great enthusiasm for season 3 to premiere. Well, the Comet isn't just your regular power-up you see everyday, now is it? It's been explicitly described as a rare occurence, which gives firebenders enormous power. A comparison with, say a full moon would therefore be a flawed one. My point was, the moon and the sun were directly connected to water- and firebending. The moon enhances waterbending, the sun enhances firebending. The Comet was never described in such a way, it was only said that it greatly increases the power of firebenders. And Aang is a firebender, so his power would increase. But unlike other firebenders, Aang could possibly also use this great power with the other elements. If it is merely a power-up and not directly related to the element of fire itself, then this is a possibility. I'm probably reading way too much into this, but heck, even if the chances are small, everything can happen at this point. No, I'm not calling anybody an idiot. I'm just saying that the issue of shipping is far more simple than the fandom often tries to think of it. In the fandom, Katara seems to be the main object of desire. "Who is Katara going to end up with?" is one of the most frequently debated issues in the fandom, which the creators mock in their Shipping short. But just because the fandom makes such a complicated issue out of it, doesn't mean it actually is such a complicated issue. So far only two people have been displayed as possible romantic matches for Katara: Jet and Aang. There have been no complicated lovetriangles, no doublecrossings, passionate choices between two potential lovers etc. So all I'm saying is that the creators are probably amused with the amount of time and effort ships are debated and discussed, when it really isn't all that much of a complicated issue. Just ask an Avatarfan who has never spend time around the fandom if he knows what shipping is. Then start telling him about Zutara, Kataang, Taang, Maiko etc and explain to him how much time and effort about every ship has taken to try and prove his ship to be the one the creators will opt for in the end. I'm willing to bet that this random fan would be absolutely flabbergasted. I myself never even thought about this issue before I started hanging around the fandom. I never even considered the possibility of Zutara, Taang or any of those fanbased ships, simply because nothing in the show had hinted in the direction of these ships being totally realistic. So I'm not saying that everybody who ships people who have never displayed any romantic interest in each other are idiots, all I'm saying is that fandoms often manage to take molehills and turn them into mountains. I do think that shipping in the canon-story is fairly simple and that it is kinda obvious which route the show will take in terms of romance, since it has always been a rather straigthforward issue. And I'm willing to bet the creators agree with me, and my bet is that's the very reason why they mock the fandom. Heh, that's the very reason why I didn't ship them in season 1, it just seemed too much like kiddylove to be taken seriously back then. The very reason why I do ship them now is because of that evolution. I think Aang does know what love is, if not consciously, then instinctively. The examples I have given before can be seen as evidence for this. Katara wasn't able to pull Aang out of his murderous rage in The Desert because he thought she was pretty. She didn't help him overcome a depression because he though she was pretty. And we didn't get to see an entire people's love reincarnating into Katara to make us believe he only loves her for her good looks. You might only perceive this as friendship, I don't. I don't categorize emotions and feelings which IMO can't be categorized so easily. At this point, the relationship between them is just to diverse, too dynamic and too deep to just chop it up in such a simplistic way. But we've been there before, so you'll just have to read back a few paragraphs to see my take on it. And forgive the spelling and grammar mistakes. I'm too lazy to read through this entire post trying to correct minor mistakes.
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ayame409
Aang
Zutara is better than chocolate! X3 [avatar made by the infamous EndlessFlame!!!]
Posts: 72
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Post by ayame409 on Feb 28, 2007 12:23:44 GMT -5
I voted Zutara...even though it's my main ship, it got seriously burned in the season finale. But, you know what? Zutarians can pick up the pieces and stick them together with duct tape! WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED SO EASILY!!!! XD
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 28, 2007 17:56:26 GMT -5
I guess we should just agree to wait until season 3. And then the person who is wrong buys the other guy a steak.
I disagree with most that you said up there, but you know that, and quite frankly you seem to care about it more than me. I'm looking for a good story, so if they can pull kataang off without being this boring confession of love we've seen coming since 2005, I won't mind.
But they would have to come up with something different, because none of the scenarios of how kataang could happen that you or anyone else has presented were satisfactory to me, and reading and writing fantasy stories is my life. I'm writing a fantasy novel, and I read 1000 page novels weekly.
So far, there has not been a scenario suggested on how kataang could happen that does not leave me snoring in my chair. I've read romances so compelling I couldn't sleep after putting the book down, but right now I use kataang to help me pass out whenever I'm experiencing insomnia.
Who knows, there might be this incredible piece of fanfiction out there, and if you or anyone else suggests it, I'll read it, even though I don't read any fanfiction at all atm.
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Post by spook on Mar 1, 2007 6:58:38 GMT -5
Well, te be honest, I've read some Kataang fanfics, and I liked none of them. It's always the fluffy goo that little kiddies seem to be into. I like Kataang for entirely different reasons, and I have completely other ideas of how it would "happen", but that's all up to the creators I guess. So yeah, let's just agree to disagree.
And the wait 'till season 3 could be a long one. Nasty rumours that Nick isn't planning to air season 3 untill September 2007 are floating about everywhere, and that's still seven months away. Ugh, I just hope it's not true. If it is, Mike and Bryan should just can Nickelodeon and find another network. Because seven months of waiting is just unacceptable.
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Post by aangryjerk on Mar 1, 2007 9:05:36 GMT -5
Nice debate Yiceman and Spook. IMO, it was Irko that was most harmed by the season finale
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Post by Azula on Mar 1, 2007 10:27:39 GMT -5
IRKo? ... anyway...the ship i think which got most harmed was ...i hate to say it...but .....zutara TT..i dont think katara'll ever acknowledge him now ;__;
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ZuJin'd
Toph
Jinfan icon ^^
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Post by ZuJin'd on Mar 1, 2007 10:42:42 GMT -5
Zutarar is defintly hurt more because of his life changes in the finale hmm...we'd probably have to stick with this..yeh..but what would we say if jin new?
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ayame409
Aang
Zutara is better than chocolate! X3 [avatar made by the infamous EndlessFlame!!!]
Posts: 72
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Post by ayame409 on Mar 1, 2007 11:48:42 GMT -5
IRKo? ... anyway...the ship i think which got most harmed was ...i hate to say it...but .....zutara TT..i dont think katara'll ever acknowledge him now ;__; IT'S JUST SO AWFUL!!! I can't believe Zuko, I just can't believe he'd do something like that! GRR!!!! *has been raving on about COD ever since it aired*
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Mar 1, 2007 23:52:21 GMT -5
Iroh's a forgiving guy, it doesn't seem in his nature to say "I hate you, boy!"
Then there's those Zuko planned it ideas, which I don't really believe just yet.
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Post by spook on Mar 2, 2007 5:39:18 GMT -5
Then there's those Zuko planned it ideas, which I don't really believe just yet. To be honest, I think they're kinda ridiculous. The whole episode is revolved around Zuko choosing the path that will OMG define his destiny. It would be rather silly if Zuko would just make a U-turn next episode and say "OMG Azula you've been punked!!!" Of course, the idea that Zuko could outwit Azula is ridiculous to begin with, since Azula is like a gazillion times more intelligent/manipulative than Zuko is...
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