Silent_E
Appa
A True Flame Master
Posts: 241
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Post by Silent_E on Jan 1, 2008 11:45:11 GMT -5
Here's what I saw for canon!Zutara in the series.
I always knew Kataang is and will be official in the end. The evidence for it says as much, however as the series went along, I got the impression that Zuko could have started to develop something for Katara. Especially after their first real battle at the North Pole. It seemed that Zuko took notice on how she progressed as a bender, maybe he was a little impressed with her skills at that point. (Could be because it probably took years to achieve that level of bending compared to the weeks/month it took for Katara. Of course him actually being impressed by her skills is up for debate.)
In season two, Zuko's part of the story was more about his own personal struggles as he faced the possibility of never seeing his home again. To add on to that, he almost lost the only person who actually cared for him when Azula scorched Iroh in "The Chase". Now I know that Katara is the only one with healing abilities and that it is in Katara's character to help those who need it, but I still found it a unique scene when she offered to heal Iroh. We still don't know what Zuko thought of Katara's offer. Heck we don't even know if he heard what she offered, but it could be implied that had Katara healed Iroh, Zuko would have been grateful toward her and not necessarily the group as a whole.
Then later on in season two came the infamous cave scene that they shared. It was clear in that scene that Katara hated Zuko for all he represented and found out that there was more to him. Zuko was coming to his own understandings and was ready to accept his life in Ba Sing Se. (Or he was accepting that life could go on despite not being able to return to his home.) Katara once again offered to help him, despite knowing the significance of what she was actually offering him. (Not only that, but she was willing to give up her sacred water to do it.) Maybe Katara's major character flaw is giving her trust to people not deserving of it, but I imagine with the things she was willing to help Zuko with, there was room for a one-sided Zutara from Zuko point of view because Zuko would have to be completely heartless not to spare a thought on her kindness. (Really, as far as the actual show is concern, he has yet to spare a thought of her kindness. The only thing that he have thought of was her water, which fueled him to hire an assasin.)
Now I know the hints of Maiko was there in season two, but it was really open ended about how Zuko felt for Mai. I was really suprised (and somewhat dissapointed) to find out they were and still are a couple.
....and with that, it officially ends all my speculation for a one-sided view Zutara coming from Zuko. (It would have definitely been one-sided after what Zuko did in CoD.)
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Jan 1, 2008 12:37:00 GMT -5
well reasoned Silent_E, *karma*. I have always been a big believer that, M&B never get lazy with their scenes. If its in the show its in there for a reason. nobody should dismiss the things you mentioned. If it doesnt make you laugh, if the scene isnt 100% relevant to that moment (not sure if that makes sense) then it is likely foreshadowing of some form of another. And I actually agree that It signifies a one-sided Zutara, and even a mutual zutara once katara realizes Zuko isnt out to hurt aang. But it is a friendship Zutara that is forshadowed imo. all of those three things signify that zuko could respect katara, but nothing saying that he would in a romantic way. Im still thinking that one of the ways Zuko will gain the trust of katara, is to push a kataang confrontation. (WAT basis, but i cant talk of it here least Paraiba delete it. which is starting to make me wonder, what the hell are these spoiler tags for? )
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Pixar
Kyoshi Mai
Posts: 2,360
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Post by Pixar on Jan 1, 2008 14:38:48 GMT -5
Out of Kataang and Zutara, I once again choose Zutara. Though my OTP is officially Toko. Kataang is nice and cute, and they do have a deep relationship, but when I see Zuko and Katara, I see more complex thing. However, I do really like Kataang, because it makes room for Toko. Aang gets Katara, fine, but Zuko can get Toph.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Jan 1, 2008 15:33:52 GMT -5
ya, if i had to choose an add-on ship to kataang, It would be Toko over Maiko. Mainly because Zuko would need something like this to avoid a relapse of angst. EDIT: also pixar, you bring up an excellent point that I almost missed. Zutara would be a more complex thing, and kataang does have quite alot of depth. complexity =/= depth (even though it can). and for me I prefer depth over complexity.
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The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Jan 1, 2008 20:58:47 GMT -5
Depth over complexity, huh, Zen? Hmmm. Interesting. I like seeing how we build and refine our concepts of relationships. So, a question for y'all: what will you do if one or the other ship happens? I know personally, if Kataang played out to the end, I'd shrug and simply think, "Huh, okay," and respect the creators' vision. I'd still be a fan of the show, still think it was some of the best animation out there, still watch it and buy the DVDs and books. *cough&soundtracks&plushies*
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jan 1, 2008 21:01:38 GMT -5
Yeah...sorry, but I just can't see Katara and Aang talking like that. It's not in their character. You can want it, but it won't make sense if you get it, no matter how entertaining it may be. You're probably being too literal with my examples. I didn't suggest that Aang and Katara use exactly those kinds of words or phrases. I meant they would have that kind of a moment. Do you get what I mean by that? They would get a moment where they just TALK. Not about anything huge, but we can clearly see that it's a scene intended to draw them together. Again, it's not about being smooth or suave or any of that. It's about the writers actually taking the time to have a good conversation between the two of them. Zen's right that it is a problem with all the romances...as I said SokkaxYue had the most and even then it was very minimal. So, for me, I had for a while been thinking that zutara could have included what I wanted, because we know that having the two characters talk and chat is a must, but after Maiko I kinda lost expectations as far as romance is concerned.
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Post by brilliantlygreen on Jan 1, 2008 21:12:04 GMT -5
I know personally, if Kataang played out to the end, I'd shrug and simply think, "Huh, okay," and respect the creators' vision. I'd still be a fan of the show, still think it was some of the best animation out there, still watch it and buy the DVDs and books. *cough&soundtracks&plushies* In the way that you worded that, you made it sound like you would *kinda* still be an Avatar fan if Kataang happened, and still respect the show and enjoy it, but you wouldn't be quite as big of a fan. Surely you don't mean that your love for this amazing show will diminish simply because your ship did not win out in the end? But as for me...If Zutara happened in the end, I would wonder why the creators decided to throw away all of this amazing storytelling and relationship development randomly in the last few episodes of this series.
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pg15
Avatar Roku
"Since beginningless time, darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."
Posts: 1,248
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Post by pg15 on Jan 1, 2008 21:14:15 GMT -5
After having some time to think, yiceman; yeah, I get what you're saying, and I wouldn't mind seeing it as well.
But I'm giving them a pass. Think about the show and how many scenes involve *just* talking for the sake of talking and not moving the plot forward or developing character? Very little, and it has only decreased as the plots get more and more complicated. If Avatar was an hour long, I'm sure we'll be getting more than our share of good conversations.
I just don't think it's the Avastaff's fault we're not getting it. We've never gotten it and it's basically due to the structure of the show and how much they have to cover.
Switching gears to The Blue Chibi's question; as I'm very pro-Kataang, if romantic!Zutara were to happen (I've got no problems with platonic!Zutara, and I think it's heading there anyway), then I will be veeeery disappointed in how the Avastaff has handled the show. The subtle, slow foreshadowing of the past would've been truly replaced by "shock the audience just for the heck of it", which they have NEVER done. As far as I'm concerned, for romantic!Zutara to happen at this point, it would require a completely new writing staff who 1). sucks at writing and 2). haven't watched the show and are just making it all up on the spot. It'll probably soil the entire show for me, actually.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Jan 1, 2008 21:18:14 GMT -5
*coughMAIKOcough*
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Post by ZamKenobi on Jan 1, 2008 21:19:00 GMT -5
Well, I voted Zutara, though Toko is my new OTP (wishes she had Photoshop again to make a fun sig). Anyway, I, like a lot if not most Zutarians, have pretty much expected it to end up Kataang, though I didn't really expect it from the start, it became clear throughout last season. I used to be neutral, and then my view towards Kataang became more positive upon seeing The Headband. Unfortunately, after that my liking went downhill as Season 3 really just made me not like Katara. Now I just really don't like it at all. (it's actually made me not like Zutara as much, but I still feel more positively towards it than Kataang) So, to answer this question: So, a question for y'all: what will you do if one or the other ship happens? I'll probably just cringe at the Kataang moments and especially at the fandom's reaction and then get over it. I don't have to like everything about the show to still enjoy it. It's not like I didnt expect it, and I never seem to like canon pairings anyway, so I might as well get used to it. I'm not watching the show for the ships; it's all just fun, whether mine happen or not Amen to that
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Post by brilliantlygreen on Jan 1, 2008 21:21:01 GMT -5
If Avatar was an hour long, I'm sure we'll be getting more than our share of good conversations. I just don't think it's the Avastaff's fault we're not getting it. We've never gotten it and it's basically due to the structure of the show and how much they have to cover. Exactly. Besides, this show is aimed for a younger audience. Nick most likely doesn't expect kids to have the attention span to sit and listen to two characters discuss...anything at all. And more importantly, the entire Avatar fandom whines and complains about filler episodes. So if we had Katara and Aang sitting and talking about anything at all, the fandom would do their usual thing of 'That was pointless and a waste of time', no matter how great it would be for relationship development.
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pg15
Avatar Roku
"Since beginningless time, darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."
Posts: 1,248
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Post by pg15 on Jan 1, 2008 21:26:50 GMT -5
Nope, not in my eyes. We had 2 clear-cut foreshadowing events (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about), followed by that magazine which, one way or another, is part of the show's canon. Also, even though it's more sudden than other events, it's still not "shock for the heck of it" as it helped develop both Mai's and Zuko's character (or at least gave Mai something to do), and will no doubt come up again later on.
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Post by ZamKenobi on Jan 1, 2008 21:33:02 GMT -5
In the way that you worded that, you made it sound like you would *kinda* still be an Avatar fan if Kataang happened, and still respect the show and enjoy it, but you wouldn't be quite as big of a fan. Surely you don't mean that your love for this amazing show will diminish simply because your ship did not win out in the end? I didn't get that from The Blue Chibi's post at all. Either way, disliking a single aspect of the show doesn't mean it has to affect your overall enjoyment that much. I'll be honest, I DETEST Maiko, not because it's not Zutara but because of how it was just thrown in out of nowhere, but I still LOVE the show. Shipping is only one aspect. Besides, what you're saying makes it seem like disliking a character would detract from one's enjoyment of the show as well, and though I have seen that, it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. But as for me...If Zutara happened in the end, I would wonder why the creators decided to throw away all of this amazing storytelling and relationship development randomly in the last few episodes of this series. Amazing relationship development? I agree that it would kind of be almost trashing a good portion of foreshadowing in the series, but I wouldn't really really call Aang and Katara's relationship "amazing development." In fact, they way they've interacted thus far has not changed at all until maybe The Headband. So they have development, but I feel like their relationship, at least on Katara's side, has not really progressed from platonic to romantic that well. Katara is just too motherly towards Aang all the time other than those few moments, like the kiss, random blushes, etc. Honestly, after the way they've handled Maiko and maybe even Kataang, I don't think the writers are very good at handling romance at all.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Jan 1, 2008 21:37:49 GMT -5
Nope, not in my eyes. We had 2 clear-cut foreshadowing events (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about), followed by that magazine which, one way or another, is part of the show's canon. Also, even though it's more sudden than other events, it's still not "shock for the heck of it" as it helped develop both Mai's and Zuko's character (or at least gave Mai something to do), and will no doubt come up again later on. Well, maybe not in your POV, but it sure as heck was for mine, and a whole lot of other people as well. 2 clear-cut events foreshadowing it? No. RTO we just had Mai looking intrigued that she'll meet Zuko again, and then in "Zuko Alone" we saw that she had a childhood crush. There was NOTHING on Zuko's part. It could've been completely one-sided for all we knew. Unrequited. In ZA, there was not a single moment when he blushed, looked shy around her, nothing! As for the comic, I never got any of the magazines, so I didn't read any of them but I think it's sad, and just a bit tacky that the show has to rely on outside props to help move along the storyline, especially since it's not available to everyone, and some people probably don't want to have to spend money to know what's going on in the show. don't get me wrong, I love Maiko, they're PDA is just win, but the first time we see them together is "The Awakening", and no buildup, no foreshadowing on Zuko's part, at least, and I'm making a big deal out of this, because for two darn seasons he's been nothing but self-absorbed, and hasn't shown even the slightest interest in the opposite sex, and now suddenly bam. He's in a full-blown relationship, kissing every five minutes. How do you reconcile that? It's downright unnerving.
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Post by psylum on Jan 1, 2008 21:43:53 GMT -5
In the way that you worded that, you made it sound like you would *kinda* still be an Avatar fan if Kataang happened, and still respect the show and enjoy it, but you wouldn't be quite as big of a fan. Surely you don't mean that your love for this amazing show will diminish simply because your ship did not win out in the end? I didn't get that from The Blue Chibi's post at all. Either way, disliking a single aspect of the show doesn't mean it has to affect your overall enjoyment that much. I'll be honest, I DETEST Maiko, not because it's not Zutara but because of how it was just thrown in out of nowhere, but I still LOVE the show. Shipping is only one aspect. Besides, what you're saying makes it seem like disliking a character would detract from one's enjoyment of the show as well, and though I have seen that, it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. But as for me...If Zutara happened in the end, I would wonder why the creators decided to throw away all of this amazing storytelling and relationship development randomly in the last few episodes of this series. Amazing relationship development? I agree that it would kind of be almost trashing a good portion of foreshadowing in the series, but I wouldn't really really call Aang and Katara's relationship "amazing development." In fact, they way they've interacted thus far has not changed at all until maybe The Headband. So they have development, but I feel like their relationship, at least on Katara's side, has not really progressed from platonic to romantic that well. Katara is just too motherly towards Aang all the time other than those few moments, like the kiss, random blushes, etc. Honestly, after the way they've handled Maiko and maybe even Kataang, I don't think the writers are very good at handling romance at all. Because that's just Katara's character. Writers don't just deviate from a character's personality just to drive home a point, that is the sloppiest writing there is. And before you say "Well it's OOC for Katara to threaten Zuko!", it's not. She has displayed fierce protectiveness of Aang before, and she's just meeting a percieved theat to Aang's well being with proportionate force. Now if you want an example of poorly written romance, look at the very popular Harry Potter Books. I was and still am a fan of the pairings, but they were all written terribly. Harry and Ginny got no development at all where Ron and Hermione got way too much "screen"time and not enough actual development.
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