Horyo
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Post by Horyo on Apr 23, 2012 19:12:18 GMT -5
Does anyone expect to see the Avatar version of Luddites? These were a real 19th-century group of people in our world who resisted the industrial revolution. They were against the advancements in technology because their own jobs were being replaced.
Since the setting of Korra's time is during the industrial revolution, I would expect to see some of these showing up. At first, I imagined benders, but after watching The Revelation, it seems that bending has been commodified into their typical ways and lifestyle. Still, that doesn't rule out the posibility of some traditionalists.
Does anyone else expect to see them?
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Zidaneski
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Post by Zidaneski on Apr 23, 2012 23:41:16 GMT -5
I imagine if there are some traditionalists that they could just leave the city because it seems like only republic city has undergone such a technological change. They could join the air monks or move to the poles.
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Horyo
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Post by Horyo on Apr 23, 2012 23:56:22 GMT -5
Given that there must be some sort of tract-system (advancements made since the train) and all of the technological advances brought on by the Fire Nation's colonies/encampments in the rest of the Earth Kingdom, and the Fire Nation homeland as the origin of the technology, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the world was just as advanced. It's hard to imagine commodities, making life and travel simpler, would be exclusive to Republic City.
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Post by Nashk Tategami on Apr 24, 2012 13:01:41 GMT -5
I'd say the current revolution that is occurring IS this world's version of Luddites. As the recent episode shows, most of the current technological advancements are only possible with the use of benders, and thus feeds into the oppression felt by non-benders.
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dirtyyasuki
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Apr 25, 2012 6:17:24 GMT -5
I'd disagree with the assessment that the Equalists are the Avatarverses version of Luddites. They may believe that adhering to the age old power structures where bender's hold all the power of the land to be what's holding back the true technological upliftment of non-benders. The current technological achievements that integrates benders into it is possibly only a concession to benders in deference to traditional leadership roles where benders were the focal points of the societies of the world up until the last 70 years.
If you removed benders from the equation you could no doubt no longer rely on benders to power your power plants, build your cities or wage your own wars as even explosive chemicals shown and used in the series can eventually be weaponized. In all honesty, the Equalists do stand for an extremely progressive philosophy in the Avatar world... albeit really twisted.
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Horyo
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Post by Horyo on Apr 26, 2012 3:53:36 GMT -5
In addition to the above, the equalists were seen to use weapons like the electric batons and motorcycles. Undoubtedly, they rely on technology more than benders do. Tt brings in an interesting edge where the age-old magic of bending is intermixed with the technological advancements, which is not often seen in this type of genre (usually it's magic vs science).
Also dirtyyasuki, from what we know in the original series, while benders maintained a large proportion of the ruling class, Kuei, Hakoda, Arnook represent some of the non-bending leaders - I count Kuei because of his involvement after the war, little as it may be). I would imagine that politics was not so much affected by bending ability.
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dirtyyasuki
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Apr 26, 2012 11:53:53 GMT -5
In addition to the above, the equalists were seen to use weapons like the electric batons and motorcycles. Undoubtedly, they rely on technology more than benders do. Tt brings in an interesting edge where the age-old magic of bending is intermixed with the technological advancements, which is not often seen in this type of genre (usually it's magic vs science). Considering the technological leaps that the Avatar's world witnessed during the Hundred Years War of Fire I'd say it was bound to happen and I more than expected it watching the old series. Also dirtyyasuki, from what we know in the original series, while benders maintained a large proportion of the ruling class, Kuei, Hakoda, Arnook represent some of the non-bending leaders - I count Kuei because of his involvement after the war, little as it may be). I would imagine that politics was not so much affected by bending ability. I disagree that bender's have not had a more privileged if not outright oligarchy as far as power in all the societies are concerned. If we take what was shown in the original series completely and extrapolate it with a little theory I can see that the majority of the ruling class of the Avatarworld's societies were composed of bender's more than non-bender's by an almost overwhelming majority and that examples you've shown are more the exception's not the norms. For instance let's get the obvious examples out of the way: Airbender's = Society comprised completely of bender's that's 1/4th of the nation societies already. Fire Nation = Bending Royal Family with only one non-bender that we saw (Ursa) who married into the family and her grandfather was Avatar Roku at that. That had to have had serious clout when she was considered as a royal consort for Ozai. Earth Kingdom = Only two surviving Earth Kingdoms that we saw. One ruled by Bumi and the other by Kuei but since a kingship is a hereditary title and not all Earth Kingdom people are Earthbenders it's possible Kuei's bending heritage may have skipped him a generation or two. It's more than possible he was directly descended from other Earth King's of Ba Sing Se who were bender's themselves. And then there was the part where he was mostly ruled as a puppet by Long Feng. Nevermind, every Earth Kingdom general we saw were bender's one and all. (Yes even General Sung/Sun supposedly) Southern Water Tribe = Hakoda was a true exception considering that all bender's in the Southern Water Tribe with the exception of Katara and Hama were essentially wiped out. Northern Water Tribe = Arnook from the Northern Water Tribe may have had the same dilemma as Kuei and he showed great deference to Master Paku going so far as to practically apologize to the Avatar for not being able to convince Master Paku to change his mind at the time about teaching Katara. Even with pressure from the Avatar himself. And the most obvious example is the Avatar itself. The Avatar as a persona and as an entity by definition and dint of the power that no one else in the world possesses hold's great amount of sway when it comes to influencing how the world works or stays "in balance". I think in any society as it begins to develop, those with more power to contribute to their society get to have more say, influence and by extension 'power' over other members of their society. Bending for early forming societies would give unparalleled influence to those that could bend over those who could not. And in a traditional Eastern inspired setting like the Avatar's world I'm sure those early societies that evolved would have taught it's non-benders to show deference and greater respect for those who could bend. I'm sure there were capable non-bender leaders that broke the mold from time to time in the series (Hakoda, Suki, Sokka, and even Kuei eventually) But that doesn't help to change the fact that generally speaking the majority of the major roles and people with a great amount of influence in their societies were nominally benders. The Ruling Council of Republic City seems to be comprised exclusively of benders.
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Post by Musogato on Apr 26, 2012 18:53:44 GMT -5
dirtyyasuki, Should the Air Nation even be counted in your example, though? Because all of the Air Nomads were Airbenders, that also means they didn't rule over any non-benders. Their society is a complete exception compared to the others. I feel a bit odd about including the Avatar as well, since he/she is the spirit of the world and so if he/she couldn't bend the elements, it would completely invalidate the point of there being an Avatar. As for the Earth Kingdom, there was also Chin the Conqueror during Avatar Kyoshi's rein and he was an Earthbender, but there was also the 46th Earth King ( link) who did not seem to be an Earthbender because he asked his guards to arrest/fight Kyoshi instead of fighting himself. Not to mention the smaller factions like the Gan Ji and Zhang tribes whose leaders were also nonbenders. Regarding Master Pakku, it's also possible that Arnook was compliant to his will because he was an elder, and that is to be respected in many eastern cultures. We also don't know the bending status of the Earth and Southern Water Tribe councilmen for Republic City, though benders would still be at least 3/5. However by this count it still seems to me like there's a fair amount of bending and non-bending leaders as seen in the show. But maybe I just find it unfair to sweep away the non-bender's roles as blips in the system.
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Post by Nashk Tategami on Apr 27, 2012 11:01:24 GMT -5
*Very Slight Spoilers for the Leaked Korra Episode Here, nothing major but I am warning all the same.* Its not a direct confirmation, but during the episode the voice in the night, the northern water tribe council-member who's name I can never rememeber, implies in conversation to tenzin that all the people on the council are benders.
I can't remember the exact dialogue but it was something like "he is a threat to all us benders" while gesturing to everyone in the room. So it seems republic city is ran by a group of benders. That would certainly help explain part of the "oppression" feeling non-benders are having.
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dirtyyasuki
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Apr 27, 2012 12:07:26 GMT -5
dirtyyasuki, Should the Air Nation even be counted in your example, though? Because all of the Air Nomads were Airbenders, that also means they didn't rule over any non-benders. Their society is a complete exception compared to the others. I feel a bit odd about including the Avatar as well, since he/she is the spirit of the world and so if he/she couldn't bend the elements, it would completely invalidate the point of there being an Avatar. They may not have ruled over non-bender's directly but they still count on account of the fact that their society is composed and ruled by bender's exclusively and non-bender's can't influence their culture whatsoever. For it to count that Bender's rule their given society not just over non-benders but almost independent of any non-bender's wishes I think it has to be unchallenged and basically a majority. Both characteristics of which the Air Nomad's society qualify for. On a note about the Air Nomad society, prior to the Hundred Years War it was supposedly comprised completely of bender's and you had to be an Airbender to become a monk/qualify as an Air Nomad. Only now with rebuilding the Air Nomad/Bender population in LoK we see non-bender "air nomads" presumably who help in protecting and looking after the future of the Airbender's. And all of them seemingly ruled over by one solitary Airbending master. Coincidence? IMO no, not really. As for the Earth Kingdom, there was also Chin the Conqueror during Avatar Kyoshi's rein and he was an Earthbender, but there was also the 46th Earth King ( link) who did not seem to be an Earthbender because he asked his guards to arrest/fight Kyoshi instead of fighting himself. Not to mention the smaller factions like the Gan Ji and Zhang tribes whose leaders were also nonbenders. As far as the Zhang or Gon Jin tribes are concerned I'll concede to your point there, but I would like to make a note they were minor tribes of people who didn't seem to fit into the general population of the rest of the nations. They may have developed in isolation to keep their unique cultural identity and thus may not have had much contact or influence from other larger societies where bender's were obviously prevalent. I mean they hardly gave the Avatar appearing among them a second glance regardless of their ongoing feud with each other at the time. Regarding the 46th Earth King, as I said there is the possibility that he is related to bender's but he may have become king regardless because it is a hereditary title as far as we know. And as kingly as he was, he must have had Earthbender General's to wage his wars for him, it would simply have been a more obvious qualification if he was gonna appoint a defender of his realm. And really how much was his influence worth after Kiyoshi was through with him? Nevermind Kiyoshi installing an earthbending secret police afterwards who were a feared paramilitary force in the Earth Kingdoms that terrorized everyone for several generations to come. So between the 46th (Unnamed) Earth King and Avatar Kiyoshi or even Chin the Conqueror, the 46th Earth King (and even Kuei) seems more the exception IMO whose reign and influence paled in comparison to their bender counterparts of the same period. But feel free to disagree with my assessment since I extrapolated the setting information based on my own theories on how human societies formed and need not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the creators of the show or how the Avatar's world actually functions beyond my own limited understanding of it. Regarding Master Pakku, it's also possible that Arnook was compliant to his will because he was an elder, and that is to be respected in many eastern cultures. Granted that is also a valid explanation. But in a world where defying your Avatar seems to carry heavy and dire consequences (Ex. Roku, Kiyoshi, Yang Chen et al) they were really lucky and/or ballsy to say "no" to their Avatar. Their supposed savior of that time period, even if he was still unrealized at the time. But if we take that theory further that has some nasty implications of its own. What if the only reason they really said no to a 12-year old unrealized avatar was because they saw him as no threat for being a kid and NOT a master of all 4 elements? It would just bring us back to the idea that not only age but bending ability would once again play a huge part in how others treat you with respect in your society. Do you really think Arnook or Master Paku would have said no to a fully realized avatar throwing their full weight around? I just have to remember Aang trying to play/get along with his friends who he grew up with but became alienated because he was revealed as the next avatar and a master already at their age. Nobody wanted to play with him cuz they knew he could kick all their asses without even thinking about it even if it was just at play. We also don't know the bending status of the Earth and Southern Water Tribe councilmen for Republic City, though benders would still be at least 3/5. However by this count it still seems to me like there's a fair amount of bending and non-bending leaders as seen in the show. But maybe I just find it unfair to sweep away the non-bender's roles as blips in the system. Fair enough. It's just a theory and it's not concrete by any means, but if we take what we already know of the URC council, that's 4/6 bender's in the council actually. Remember Chief Bei Fong is a member of the council in addition to Tenzin, Tarrlok, and the Fire Nation councilwoman. Even if the Southern Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom representatives were non-bender's they are out numbered already. Nevermind the crime triads seem to be exclusively all-benders and closely embody the theory I've posited here. From my end as unpleasant as it sounds, there will always be those in a society who are simply born more privileged than others by default. Of which bending is an obvious and significant divider. I think Sokka best described the wide gap between benders and non-benders when he said, "Each of you is so amazing, and so special. And I'm... not. I'm just the guy in the group who's... regular. "
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Post by Nashk Tategami on Apr 27, 2012 13:37:13 GMT -5
As I mentioned above, it is implied that the entire council is benders by the Northern Water tribe councilman.
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Post by Musogato on Apr 27, 2012 17:45:26 GMT -5
....But the whole reason that non-benders could not influence the Air Nomad culture was because there were no non-benders in it. There was no minority because everyone was in the majority. So the non-bender vs bender hierarchy is irrelevant in this case. But if you want to insist on counting it, then all of the villages we've seen that are mostly/entirely non-benders should be counted just as much. Regarding Air Temple Island, seventeen years earlier Tenzin was the only Airbender alive. Even now with his kids, he is still the only one with a real connection to the culture. While it's great that other people were interested enough in the Air Nomad culture as to convert and join the island, you really want to use him as an example of benders having complete political power over non-benders? Of course Tenzin is in charge, he's the only Air Nomad adult left and this is his home. The Acolytes are there in part to learn from him/Avatar Aang if they've been there for decades. Maybe later on these Acolytes will start their own Air Nomad sanctuaries like how people start their own dojos/churches, but for now they seem to be students. The Zhang and Gan Ji may have been small tribes, but the Earth Kingdom has many small factions and cultures. The Earth King may rule over the entire continent, but if Omashu can also have a King, what makes the political structures of the smaller tribes and towns any less viable? As for not being around benders, they knew who Aang was but didn't care because being angry at the other tribe was far more pressing. In addition the original feud itself involved an Earthbender; the Gan Ji's patriarch Jin Wei was apparently one, though nothing is mentioned of the Zhang's founder Wei Jin. So it's possible they could have had more earthbenders in their tribe, though not at the time we saw them. For Master Pakku, he did agree to teach Aang waterbending -- it was after Aang disrespected him and his culture by teaching Katara that Pakku refused. He was letting his own pride get in the way of the bigger picture. It wasn't until after he learned Katara was Kanna's granddaughter that he apparently changed his mind and continued to teach them. So I wouldn't say it was age/bending-ism so much as Pakku just being a misogynist, sour old man. But yeah, things would be different for a fully-fledged Avatar throwing their weight around. I think it would have to be for a really good reason though, because otherwise that seems to be the fastest way to get everyone to hate them. And master of the elements or not, you don't want the world's army against you. (it sounds like a great fic though.) That is too bad about the Republic Council being all benders though (if Tarrlok's statement is to be taken that way, and thanks Nashk for the quote), but perhaps that is supposed to be part of the show's point. (And yeah, I totally forgot Chief Beifong was on the council too, ah.) But then that kind of proves it right there -- non-benders need to have more representation in their government. Their needs need to be heard and addressed, especially if the city is supposed to be a republic. But I am still completely against the idea that the only way to make things equal is to get rid of bending. You can't make things fair by cutting out half of the equation. Especially since bending is such a long-standing connection to the world and a part of the people themselves. Nevermind the fact that bending is awesome, even if it does get used for terrible purposes. So if the power is unequal in that way, why not find ways to increase the non-benders' power? If they have the technology to simulate lighting-bending via the Lieutenant's kali sticks, maybe Future Industries can simulate Waterbending and Earthbending, or other ways for people to protect themselves. Of course that takes money so the poorest will still be out of luck, but then increase governmental ways to protect them, or aid. As for Sokka, I remember that scene and I feel his sentiment, but at the same time I see it as more of an inferiority complex. What Sokka needed wasn't bending, but to find his potential and realize it. And with Piandao's help he got further on that path. I have no doubt that he grew up to be an amazing tactician and swordsman, not to mention what he did during the show. And finding what we're good at is what every person will have to do at some point in their life. Yes, it's unfair that not every person is born as a bender, or any other divider that is under the sun. But that doesn't make them worth less or any less able to be whoever they are. Yeah, some will have to struggle more than others to get there, and some won't even have the chance to try. It's a terrible game, but that's how life works. Amon's trying to change the rules, so he gets points for that, but I don't think his desired end result is the best way to do that in the long run.
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Post by Nashk Tategami on Apr 27, 2012 21:49:14 GMT -5
But I am still completely against the idea that the only way to make things equal is to get rid of bending. You can't make things fair by cutting out half of the equation. Especially since bending is such a long-standing connection to the world and a part of the people themselves. Nevermind the fact that bending is awesome, even if it does get used for terrible purposes. So if the power is unequal in that way, why not find ways to increase the non-benders' power? If they have the technology to simulate lighting-bending via the Lieutenant's kali sticks, maybe Future Industries can simulate Waterbending and Earthbending, or other ways for people to protect themselves. Of course that takes money so the poorest will still be out of luck, but then increase governmental ways to protect them, or aid. I agree with the sentiment that removing bending is not the answer. Messing with people's bending is to mess with their very spirit, their souls. Forcing someone to change on a fundamental level like that... Well to me, it is wrong. VERY wrong. I don't know what the answer is though. A problem such as this has no simple solution. How do you ensure that non-benders can be protected from benders? Removing bending is out, but it is simply unfeasible to train everyone to fight. You could create a task force to protect them of course, but would that be effective? Is there a way to limit bending without removing it? All I know is that I do not envy Korra. She is so young, yet it is her duty to find a way to balance the spirit of republic city, when she herself is considered part of the problem.
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dirtyyasuki
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Apr 29, 2012 11:41:17 GMT -5
@ Musogato: Granted you have some very good points there but the fact remains that in a world where bending is a defining characteristic of the nations and societies of its world, it stands to reason that bending and benders would have had more if not the most influence in it than non-benders.
A sane avatar may not want the nations he oversees to rebel against him/her. But if one were crazy enough to want to, they can practically "bend" away whole armies if the Avatar was fully realized and in the Avatar State. No one with a nuke would want to launch one, but if you want the ultimate deterrent to war, you will have to make the biggest stick to threaten everyone else who will think of opposing you. I can't think of a bigger stick than the Avatar himself. Avatar Yang Chen is the closest example we have to an almost tyrannical Avatar.
Her wiki entry reads as follows: Yangchen was a respected Avatar noted for her wisdom, determination, and power. Though an Air Nomad, Yangchen was feared in her time due to her willingness to do "whatever it takes" to protect the world and keep it in balance.[5] No threats of war occurred for an entire generation after her time.
The world didn't rise up against YangChen's almost seemingly draconian style of rulership. It just sort of accepted it.
If most wars were caused by bender's or it's greatest achievements also because of bender's then from what I can see I'm not gonna wonder where the achievements of non-bender's are in this case, but I might have to look harder to find them though. It would look like a certain amount bias is already set in the natural order of things.
Not to say that the achievements of non-benders aren't noteworthy or impressive. If anything I think any non-bender who deserves mention along with any famous bender is more impressive because they managed to stand-out despite an obvious disadvantage of powers and in comparison to their competition. Their contributions to their society and history of their people's aren't impossible, just less obvious. And therein lies the problem in LoK atm. With all that technology and knowledge beyond the capabilities of bending itself, non-bender's are probably becoming more and more influential and harder to ignore than previous generations. And yet, for reason's not entirely clear there is a resentment towards bender's and non-bender's not content at all with their lot. That, at least for me, implies that history has shown an almost overwhelming amount of bias in favor of benders that continues into the present with LoK. I don't imagine a difficult problem like this to be a new thing that started in URC, I imagine it as old as time itself and endemic of something that needed to be changed. And change has come in a very violent way in the form of Amon and his Equalists.
On a note about Amon, he is an extremist, after all he did come from extreme beginning's if the story of how he was set upon the path he is on now is true in any sense.
I wouldn't put much stock in his word, but it would really be interesting if he was telling the truth. Almost more interesting than if he was really lying and he had another more compelling reason for doing what he's done.
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Post by Musogato on May 2, 2012 15:58:11 GMT -5
Nashk Tategami, Yeah, it's definitely a tough situation. I don't have an answer either, but to me it seems like whatever it could be, it would always be a work in progress. Even if there was some kind of balance that could be reached, there would still be people that didn't like it, and some years down the road variables would change so there would be new problems to be addressed. Maybe the way society viewed it would alter or the program/enforcers would become corrupt... whatever the solution could be, it has to be flexible. But you're right, can't expect everyone to fight, and even a police force wouldn't be able to stop or prevent every crime. Barring a Big Brother type of state, the truth is, there will always be some amount of danger. Somehow limiting bending like gun control could work I guess, but would that be a like an enforceable law or a physically altering thing? If physical I could see it working under pharmaceuticals, but that feels wrong too. What if there are side effects, or it not only limits bending but dims their spirit/personality as well? I couldn't vote for that. Even if there were no side effects, and the drugs limited the bending enough to only produce a tiny flame or levitate a little rock or water, so that it would be impractical to try threatening someone with it..... it might work, but it still makes me sad. Hopefully there will be some other kind of solution that isn't so intrusive. dirtyyasuki, I guess this is where we agree to disagree then. Bending may have more uses in battle and intimidation, and be a defining national characteristic, but I personally don't think that counteracts the value of a good mind or personality. I think if someone has something to be influential about, they would find a way to do it, regardless of if they were bender or non-bender. I mean, manipulating an element doesn't make them have better ideas, y'know? Money, classism and potentially sexism would be bigger hindrances imo. I wish we had more info on Avatar Yangchen, her situation sounds interesting. I don't understand though how she could be so respected for wisdom and determination if she was also a draconian tyrant? I mean, if she threatened everyone with an iron fist, it seems like after she died the world would be relieved, and maybe even want to try stop the Avatar Cycle altogether so future generations wouldn't have to deal with that again, if it was so terrible. But maybe her displays of power were more like the Exodus in the Bible; raining hellfire and whatnot, to put the fear of God the Avatar into people so they would behave. But regarding Republic City, to me it seems like the non-bender revolt is more in response to being victims of bender abuse, and potentially not having any representation on the council ( I say potentially because none of the propaganda/Protestor calls have singled out the council situation yet), than 'not staying in their place on the foodchain.' I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of a single situation in ATLA where any of the non-benders were socially segregated, treated differently, or looked down on for being non-benders. There were examples of sexism in the NWT, classism in Ba Sing Se, and uh location-ism ( ) when Aang said he was from the colonies when he was in Fire Nation school. The only non-bender discrimination I can remember is when the invading Fire Nation troops only imprisoned benders (SWT and Haru's village). So they did see non-benders as less of a threat and/or easier to extort like the Triads are doing in Repub City, but does that equal full-scale systemic discrimination? Maybe I'm naive, but I want to say no.
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