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Post by Mute Swan Of Luna on Dec 18, 2006 20:57:16 GMT -5
conflicts are made to be worked out, its been discussed to death, but Aang need to let her go just to activate the Avatar State by his own will, when he's done he's free to love her again. What he does with that attachment is left to him.....ok back to topic That's very true. I suppose that does explain a confusion that I had in my head. Thanks. Yes, let's go back to the topic. ^^
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Kendra Wolf
Avatar Aang
The Divine Right to Destroy You
Posts: 1,171
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Post by Kendra Wolf on Dec 18, 2006 21:03:16 GMT -5
Heh... I think Zuko wont end up with anyone, and if he does that person is bound to die just as soon as Zuko realizes how happy he is... XD like Jin, what happened to her? Dead obviously XP
Zuko = Harry Potter romance wise XP
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Post by waterfire (I am back!!!) on Dec 18, 2006 22:38:08 GMT -5
So do any of you guys have any Zutara foreshaodwing?
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Post by easilydistracted on Dec 18, 2006 23:22:51 GMT -5
XD
The following post is NOT to be taken seriously and I'm intentionally being confusing about it.
Okay. First, chakras and such are based on Buddhism philosophy. Now... there are different kinds of Buddhism and one in particular practiced by Tibetan Buddhists is known as 'Tantric Buddhism'.
Second, Air Nomad culture is usually described to be based on Tibetan Buddhism.
Third, 'Tantra' (as in Tantric Buddhism) can mean to 'weave'. And Aang can weave as known in ep 114 The FortuneTeller.
Fourth, if you're wondering how all of the above foreshadows Kataang (I am not proposing this seriously, okay?)... XD Just research a bit about Tantric Buddhism which according to Wikipedia (the last time I saw the article) is practiced by the Dalai Lama himself.
Fifth, according to Mike and Bryan via the PMX report courtesy of Rawles - Air Nomads ain't celibate.
Sixth, the Water Chakra deals with pleasure and is located somewhere between the base of the spine and stomach.
Seventh, yeah... Katara, you lucky girl, you. XD
And no - I am not really serious or adamant that this all foreshadowing for Kataang. It's just a set of very funny and ironic coincidences to me. XD
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Dec 19, 2006 5:40:02 GMT -5
Some Suspicious Things About Soko I'm not a shipper...but that is the most well thoughout series of points I've ever seen...well done...
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Dec 19, 2006 10:02:09 GMT -5
...I thought she was being ironic.
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artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 10:08:08 GMT -5
In terms of Zutara foreshadowing ... well that's kind of what the whole ship is based off of. So I think it would take a while to mention it all and give justice to it at the same time. And If I wasn't on a break from my class right now, maybe I'd take the time to atleast say something in support.
But, I know this is off topic, I just gotta say that it starts to get really frustrating when peolpe say your ship doesn't have any proof. If there wasn't any proof then it wouldn't be a ship. Maiko, Soko, Zutara, Kataang, Sukka, Ty Lokka, ect. They all have at least some proof to back them up. As a Zutara shipper, I'm perfectly willing to admit that there are multiple possibilities for relationships. Regardless of whether not I agree with a ship, I still give the ship and its shippers their due respest.
So, i really don't mind if you don't agree with some foreshadowing, but I think it's rash to say that there isn't any proof.
Alright, my little lecture is over ... sorry to have taken up forum space ... i just felt it was important to say.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Dec 19, 2006 10:17:10 GMT -5
Well, it all depends on how a person defines "proof" and what exactly it's supposed to be proving. If by "proof" you mean something that makes people consider the possibility of a relationship/start postulating what such a relationship would be like or how it would come to pass, then sure everything's got "proof" because it takes next to nothing for fandom to start shipping people together.
But if by "proof" you mean actual textual support indicating that such a relationship will be at some point extant in the canon, then, well, the hard truth is that not every ship has that. And if people think your proof is ridiculous/grasping at straws they shouldn't feel beholden to say otherwise. That's just kind of...not how reality works. People don't concede a point to you just because you decided to concede one to them; people concede points when they're wrong. It's not required to be a balanced exchange.
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Post by frozenwind141 on Dec 19, 2006 10:21:48 GMT -5
...I thought she was being ironic. So did I... *goes off to read it again*
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Post by spook on Dec 19, 2006 10:43:58 GMT -5
Well, Kataang has it's fair share of clues. It even has episodes pretty much dedicated to it. The Fortuneteller and CoTL are of course major hints towards Kataang, and I'm too lazy to make a list of all the other hints, clues and nods towards Kataang. Just check out season two, and I'm sure you'll be able to sort them out.
And Zutara...well, no. It doesn't have any explicit clues or hints, just scenes, events and symbols that might refer to Zutara. It's pretty much all based on fanon, and is still as far away from being canon as it was when the fandom of Zutara started to form (if not even farther, after the finale...). I'm a Kataang-fan, so I might be biased, but I'm pretty sure most objective people would agree with me here.
As for other ships, I don't really care about them. Sukka is pretty much canon, Tokka had a few moments, Zujin was canon for a second or two, and that's pretty much it when it comes to fact-based hints and clues.
Welcome to the hypocritical world of ettiquete. It's gotten to the point of insanity in some places, where people are no longer allowed to express their opinions for the sake of civility. Don't get me wrong, the best conversation is a civilized conversation, but I see nothing wrong with people either defending or attacking opinions which they find correct/flawed.
But I do understand why mods would like to keep their sites clean of passionate discussions. Shipping is always a delicate issue and shipping discussions have all too frequently turned into huge flamefests in the past...
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Dec 19, 2006 10:51:22 GMT -5
Marry me. Er...I mean.
YES. I agree so much I can't even describe it to you.
It's a thing with me, if I think you're wrong then I think you're wrong. And if we're engaged in a debate/discussion then...I'm going to tell you so. If I don't then what's the point of having the discussion in the first place? I don't enter into a discussion just to have people agree with me, I do it to hear and argue opposing viewpoints, but people get so overinvested that they stop being able to tell the difference between a person attacking an opinion or argument that they feel is factually/logically incorrect and them attacking the person who made that argument.
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Post by gigirl942 on Dec 19, 2006 11:11:24 GMT -5
Perhaps maybe Zutara clue. He did act a little bit different around then he usually acts around everyone else. During that time Period Zuko was in his "Creepy Nice Stage" but soon afterwards he betrayed and faught Katara. If he truly even cared about her he would have at least hesitated to fight her and join Azula's gang. ROTFLMFAO they were totally making fun of the fic writers that make him so terrible OOC.
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artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 11:20:27 GMT -5
Gotterdammerung: No, I know what your saying. I only used the word proof because that's what someone had said earlier. And i'm not talking about conceding points, becuase I myself rarely do; what I'm talking about is respecting opinions. If someone is going to say that something has no proof, then say why; otherwise, I just view it as ignorance. Heck, I am in Film school; so when i'm not working on a project, I'm in class where everyone argues about how they interpreted a film differently. I'm used to people disagreeing and finding flaws theories. I know that's normal and healthy. A forum is about discussing things. There's respectful disputes ( which I enjoy, throwing well thought out ideas between one another) and then there's the "I'm right, you're wrong" absolutism that i despise. And since I've gone so off topic, I should probably go on topic. In terms of Zutara, well I started shipping Zutara even before I knew what shipping was. I'm not a big TV buff but i'm very loyal to this show. When I first saw "The waterbending Scroll" is when I thought that it was a sure thing that Zuko and Katara would get together at some point. I know, how can being threatened and tied to a tree be romantic? Well, it wasn't. It's really just about connecting the dots, understanding the motifs, and reading the subtext. Throughout the series, seeds have been planted that suggest a possible romance between Zuko and Katara. Things like the necklace, the balance of yin and yang, the story of Oma and Shu, the balance of the four elements, and most recently their encounter in the cave. TO me, it has become apparent throughout the series that the most obvious things have often times not been the way of the Avatar world. Almost all the single-sided crushes in series have been for not. Sokka crushed on Yue(well, loved really), but Yue actually reciprocated the attraction. Sokka and Suki were at minor conflict originally until they developed a mutual crush. Meng liked Aang, but Aang did not feel the same way. Ty Lee seems to like Sokka, but I don't see him sharing the same attraction. Mai has a crush on Zuko, but Zuko (thus far) has not seemed to behold the same feelings. It seems as if Toph may have a crush on Sokka (i'm not sure) but even sokka said that he was "with" Soki. Aang has held a crush on Katara since almost the beginning. And Katara has not adorned upon him the same feelings. Through two whole seasons, Katara has remained a family figure for Aang. Even when Aang was with the Guru, she represented the love that his people had given him; a familial love. And in the finale, when Aang and Iroh found Zuko and Katara, Katara mirrored Iroh. As Iroh loves, cherishes, and guides his nephew: Katara loves, cherishes, and guides Aang. Zuko and Katara are different on so many extreme levels and yet so similar in more personal ways. Their union would fully represent the concept of change and unity that the show is constantly portraying. I think, right now, the biggest argument lies in Zuko's actions at the end of the finale. But that is more a theoretical discussion that doesn't belong in this thread. Eh, i wish I had more time to support zutara in this post. My posts a couple of weeks ago were so much better But oh well.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Dec 19, 2006 11:57:55 GMT -5
But the thing is with most Zuko/Katara arguments there seems to be an inherent lack of understand of the underlying themes of the show and how they actually play into the show. The common Zutarian argument is to try to take themes of balance and unity that are about all four nations and the show as a whole and make them about Zuko/Katara when they're just...not. Like the whole deal in the Spirit Oasis and Tui and La and yin yang. That has nothing to do with anyone's relationship. That's all about the mythology of waterbending and about the fact that bending as a whole is affected by natural phenomena as a callback to Sozin's comment and foreshadowing of the eclipse. Mike and Bryan say as much on the DVD commentaries. The legend of Oma and Shu functions in two contexts: 1) As a cute Romeo+Juliet analogue and 2) To teach the oft-repeated lesson of trusting in the power of love. And it forever mystifies me that Aang and Katara were the ones kissing in the love cave and yet no one considers the idea that a story wherein one of two lovers dies, sending the other one into a bending rage could have something to do with Aang/Katara?
And the whole argument about Aang/Katara or, at least, Katara's feelings for Aang being purely platonic requires completely ignoring the fact that two episodes exist the express purpose of which were to blatantly outline the fact that Katara's feelings for Aang are Changing. And, you know, I fully believe that the Great Transcendental Love between Aang and Katara that was highlighted in the finale was the sort of love without qualifier, but that doesn't negate the fact that they have had blatantly romantic interactions before and neither does it preclude them having more of the same in the future. Indeed, all it really does is further highlight how unlikely it either that either of them will ever enter into any major relationship with anyone else because their bond is the emotional centerpiece of the show no matter what form it ultimately takes on.
Zuko/Katara never really had any support in the text in large part due to sheer lack of meaningful interaction, and then the first time they ever have one, Katara sympathizes with him for three seconds and then five minutes later he remorselessly and irrevocably stomps on even the vaguest burgeoning connection by being an accomplice in Aang's mortal wounding and/or murder.
I honestly came out of the finale thinking that was rather mean of Mike and Bryan since I felt like they stomped all over Zuko/Katara and its chances of ever being even remotely canon. But apparently that was just me.
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Post by spook on Dec 19, 2006 12:22:16 GMT -5
Great, a well-thought out and rational post made by one of my 'enemies'. I always try to hold back, but when I see a rational post I don't agree with, I can't help myself but to reply. Now, like I illustrated in my last post, let us cross blades like gentlemen do (or in your case, ladies). Be warned though, lower your guard and I will not hesitate to strike! Right, enough with the silly metahphors...
Ahh, but is that a subtext which is universally accepted, or one that requires individual interpretation? I've seen the same scene, and I didn't see no subtexts, no clever disguises for a future relationship. There is a difference between seeing something, and wanting to see something. Whether this applies to me or you, well, I don't know.
That's really the general problem I have with what Zutarians consider hints: it requires one to interpret the way they do. A lot of the hints Zutarians seem to see are the ones only apparant to them. Honestly, I've seen things some Zutarians consider hints where I never would have seen anything.
True, Avatar has been all but predictable at times. That's what I've seen a lot of Zutarians stress on, the fact that we have to 'expect the unexpected'. This is true, the writers do like to throw things around when nobody expects it.
But what many people seem to forget when they think about this, is that whatever plottwists have happened thusfar, they have all been believable. Zuko turning bad again was unexpected, but believable. Aang not saving the day once, but nearly dying was unexpected but believable. You get the point?
But what some people (Zutarians among them) want to happen is just beyond fathoming. Zuko suddenly turning good again is just not going to happen, because it's out of character. Any chance of him joing the gAang is gone, no matter what some people want to happen. And it's equally unbelievable for either of the two to fall in love with each other now. Katara already had urges to kill Jet when she saw him again, imagine how she'd react if she'd see Zuko again. And then there won't be Sokka and Aang to hold her back. She has shown to be forgiving, but her rather short fuse doesn't give much room for apologies and such...
See, this is a rather weak argument. Because A has happened, this automatically decreases the chance of B happening. It's vague symbolism, not very reasonable. I doubt the writers really think this way.
As for Katara not reciprocating, well, her feelings have been growing in season two. It's still rather ambiguous, but there was much more emphasis on Katara and Aang's feelings for each other in season two than in season one. Especially in the second half of season two, it becomes painfully (pun intended) clear how much they mean to each other. Aang's feelings for her are clear, her feelings for him...well, we don't know. In fact, I doubt she even knows herself.
I think you're trying to categorize something here that doesn't need to be categorized. Katara didn't represent 'familial' love, she represented love itself. Not just romantic love or platonic love, but just love. A bond of caring, trust and devotion that gives the Avatar the motivation and confidence he needs to be able to his job. It wasn't the Chakra of just familial love, it was the Chakra of love itself.
Well, that's subjective symbolism again. I didn't see two father/mother figures running to their sons, I saw two people who were relieved and happy to see their friend/family. What else was Katara supposed to do? Give him a cheesy hiphop handshake and say "Wazzup!"? No, she just hugs everyone she cares about, that's just part of her caring character.
What was symbolic to me was that Katara immediatly forgot about Zuko when she saw Aang. Plus the way Aang and Zuko contrasted each other in how they answered the hugs. Aang gladly hugged her back, whilst Zuko just stood there as a statue when his uncle hugged him. That was pretty much the sign for me that things were gonna go wrong...
Well, IMO Aang and Katara getting together would be the climax of another really important part of the show: the fact that one person, powerfull as he may be, still needs others to rely on to accomplish his task. If it weren't for his bond with Katara he wouldn't even have made it to the North Pole, let alone Ba Sing Se. Katara has given Aang hope, support and the willpower to accomplish his task. Aang has given Katara freedom, the possibility to pursue her dream and the hope that things will eventually turn out okay. People who have such a deep bond and who have given each other so much deserve each other IMO.
Well, that was my rant. Passionate, determined, but civil. I didn't dilude my arguments with unnecessary civility just to make it feel less personal. I trust you'll do the same if you decide to reply.
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