yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jan 24, 2007 3:37:22 GMT -5
Happiness I'm fine with. I'm sick of argueing against kataang. I can't seem to do it without people thinking I'm a villain who just wants to see the two of them separated. I don't care if they do or don't. I have no shipping preferences (excluding some of the wilder ones).
Anyone want to debate for/against Zutara? Or let me defend kataang?
I can defend and attack any ship, but so far the only one I've gotten any reactions on are the kataang squad ;p
I guess they're just more loyal. Step up, people! >:0
P.S. Maybe I was a late bloomer, or kids these days eat too many steroid-infested hamburgurs. Puberty at 8? Eesh. Good thing Aang's a vegetarian.
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aquavi
Casual Zuko
Yay for old skool!
Posts: 981
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Post by aquavi on Jan 24, 2007 3:49:50 GMT -5
P.S. Maybe I was a late bloomer, or kids these days eat too many steroid-infested hamburgurs. Puberty at 8? Eesh. Good thing Aang's a vegetarian. I hit puberty at 9. Hindu household, never ate a single hamburger, or any beef for that matter. Stopped drinking milk at age 7, so the hormone-pumped cows didn't have much of an effect on me. As for Zutara, it's not canon nor is it 'semi-canon' or 'canon-ish'. If 'subtext' and 'symbolism' are the main arguing points for it, because of the lack of non-hostile interaction ('The Chase' and the S2 finale are the only instenses I can think of where the two crossed paths and didn't fight imediately) there's not much to do with it really. People can ship what they want, but trying to validate/justify any ship just makes you look stupid. No matter what the fandom. :kicks soapbox:
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Post by Werewolf Cookie on Jan 24, 2007 5:17:58 GMT -5
I hit puberty at 9 too, although I've been eating meat my whole life, so maybe that had something to do with it.
Zutara is a weird ship to discuss, because either you see symbolism in the background music, the colour of their clothes, the way they move when they bend, or you don't. And if you don't, you just don't get what the shippers are on about.
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Post by spook on Jan 24, 2007 7:02:48 GMT -5
Happiness I'm fine with. I'm sick of argueing against kataang. I can't seem to do it without people thinking I'm a villain who just wants to see the two of them separated. I don't care if they do or don't. I have no shipping preferences (excluding some of the wilder ones). Anyone want to debate for/against Zutara? Or let me defend kataang? I can defend and attack any ship, but so far the only one I've gotten any reactions on are the kataang squad ;p I guess they're just more loyal. Step up, people! >:0 Heh, I don't consider you a villain. You're not a Zutarian, so your okay by my standards (just kidding, Zutarians). ;D The reason why Kataangers are the the ones reacting is because we've got most things to defend. We've had canon moments and we're defending the ship that has been pretty much the OTP of the story since day one, so we just have a lot of material to defend ourselves with. Zutarians and Taangers have little to offer but all the symbolic stuff they have been using as arguments since the beginning. And oh yeah, Zutarians have "the longing look"... They're pretty much fanon ships, just because they have a large number of people supporting them doesn't change that fact. I myself never even considered Taang or Zutara untill I started checking out the fandom, which was about halfway through season 2. I was pretty amazed how many people supported those ships, even though it had no canon moments to proof it. But then again, I never understood fangirls, so I guess that just comes down to me being ignorant.
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Post by Mashnii on Jan 24, 2007 7:59:15 GMT -5
I hit puberty at ten, and just about every guy I know has hit puberty at 11 or 12, right where Aang is.
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Growly
DOBS Katara
The Jester of Multishipping
The Mod behind the Myth
Posts: 6,059
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Post by Growly on Jan 24, 2007 9:35:15 GMT -5
I still dissaprove of statutory rape It wasn't that Aang's younger than she is, it's that he's 12. The boy doesn't have a hair on his body. He hasn't even reached puberty. No, spook, this isn't about numbers. It's about the fact that Aang still orders the kids meal at McDonald's. I'm sorry, but no matter how many people insist that this is "true, unbridled love," seeing a 12-year-old make out with anyone is creepy from my point of view. Besides, something like that at such a young age can really screw a person up. I don't think they're ready. ...I still order from the kids menu at McDonalds. I like getting a toy. Also, statutory rape only applies where one person is an adult and the other is a child. It does not apply when one person is twelve and another is fourteen. It doesn't even fall within the age difference range that would make it statutory rape when she turns eighteen (and he'd be sixteen - still within the 3-4 year range allowed by law). I'm not saying they should be going out and having sexual relations at this point - but the age factor does not invalidate the feelings that are present. As for that comment about screwing people up - first off, don't forget that this is a completely different society from our own. It's kind of weird to see people approaching Avatar as though the characters in it have the same idea of social norms as we do. Children have to mature a great deal faster in the types of societies that are presented in the Avatar world. If you don't believe me, look at the fact that in the Water Tribe, boys go through their manhood ceremonies at fourteen. That's not uncommon among tribal cultures. Nor would it be uncommon for that fourteen year old to be married within a very short time of becoming a man in the eyes of his tribe. For the Airbenders, it seems to be implying the age of adulthood, age of reasoning, etc is sixteen. That's the age at which they were going to inform Aang that he's the Avatar. In the Fire Nation they seem to have no problem with allowing fifteen year old girls to hold positions of the highest power possible - surely they must consider them to be more than silly children. Heck, the Earth King became King at the age of four - again, not an uncommon occurance in older societies. In those cultures, a person was probably considered past their prime by the time they hit 25 (it's carried over a little - 30 is still considered "middle age" by some people despite the fact that science and technology have enabled us to live far longer than we used to). Interestingly enough, when it comes to the whole concept of relationships between adults and teenagers, there are a great many states that still have laws on their books that allow an adult to marry a teenager (sometimes as young as the age of fourteen - and I believe there is one state that still allows marriage at the age of twelve, provided both the minor and the parents approve). So believe me, the whole Aang/Katara thing is not very far out there. All of that aside, Kataang is a ship that is based on friendship and devotion - both are two very important things in a relationship. No matter what, Katara and Aang will be there for each other - through all of the horrors and the few happy moments they can snatch in the course of their mission. I've always found it a perplexing double standard. To think that the weight of the entire world is resting on the shoulders of this twelve year old boy, that he is expected to go out and fight for them - even to die for them should that become necessary - and people seem to have little problem with that concept. Yet you bring up the matter that this very same twelve year old might be in love - in LOVE - and obviously he can't be capable of that, or there's other reasons presented (any reason that a person deems necessary to keep Aang and Katara apart). So at twelve he's old enough - mature enough - to die, but he's not allowed to love. Somehow it doesn't seem fair.
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Post by Mashnii on Jan 24, 2007 9:46:31 GMT -5
^Wow, Growly. Nicely, nicely said. I'm gonna karmalize you when my hour's up. Great job. Really, seriously, great. I agree completely. Kataang isn't that far out there at all, and the children in the Avatar world would be forced into maturing faster, seeing that they witnessed the horrors of war almost every day.
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Growly
DOBS Katara
The Jester of Multishipping
The Mod behind the Myth
Posts: 6,059
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Post by Growly on Jan 24, 2007 9:53:55 GMT -5
^Wow, Growly. Nicely, nicely said. I'm gonna karmalize you when my hour's up. Great job. Really, seriously, great. I agree completely. Kataang isn't that far out there at all, and the children in the Avatar world would be forced into maturing faster, seeing that they witnessed the horrors of war almost every day. Thanks, Mashy. It's been a while since I've really gotten the chance to debate and present well thought out arguments. I'm glad to know I'm not entirely rusty. Also, it shows up in history again and again - young people doing extraordinary things, being leaders at young ages and changing the world. How old was Alexander the Great? He wasn't in his 20s when he was ruling? He was sixteen. How about Joan of Arc? Fifteen and she was commanding soldiers and trying to save her people. "The young do not know enough to be prudent and therefore they attempt the impossible - and achieve it, generation after generation" - Pearl S. Buck
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Post by Mashnii on Jan 24, 2007 10:02:40 GMT -5
^Wow, Growly. Nicely, nicely said. I'm gonna karmalize you when my hour's up. Great job. Really, seriously, great. I agree completely. Kataang isn't that far out there at all, and the children in the Avatar world would be forced into maturing faster, seeing that they witnessed the horrors of war almost every day. Thanks, Mashy. It's been a while since I've really gotten the chance to debate and present well thought out arguments. I'm glad to know I'm not entirely rusty. Also, it shows up in history again and again - young people doing extraordinary things, being leaders at young ages and changing the world. How old was Alexander the Great? He wasn't in his 20s when he was ruling? He was sixteen. How about Joan of Arc? Fifteen and she was commanding soldiers and trying to save her people. "The young do not know enough to be prudent and therefore they attempt the impossible - and achieve it, generation after generation" - Pearl S. Buck Oh, yeah. Most definitely. Unfortunately, if a fifteen-year-old today started commanding soldiers, it would be a disaster almost. Let's face it, guys. The people of old matured more quickly than us, because they were exposed.Growly, I'm karmalizing you three times. You frickin' rock. XD
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Power
Fire Lord Zuko
Kataangian Elite. Air/Water Warrior
Toph and Sokka. Every day they get closer to each other.
Posts: 8,513
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Post by Power on Jan 24, 2007 10:36:10 GMT -5
Let me take in one of those karmas Mash ;D
Seriously most people are up in arms if Aang and Katara share a kiss together. Seriously its not going to be any graphic full make out tongue in cheek junk. The creators will make it tasteful enough, so even the most stubborn of people will at least go aww that was nice. It may be close to what Sukki and Sokka did, but it will be special in its own view.
Society has take to the norm of preference of younger girl to older guy, but the creators have put the yang down flipped it and reversed it to older girl younger guy. I know this is not really seen much in society but its there. Aang and Katara certainly don't mind kissing each other to say the least, So i hope the kiss wont turn people's stomach into a pile of sickness mush. Come on, they are at war, trying to stop it, after all is said and done, if its in each other they find happiness and they wish to kiss, let em do it, Im all for it!
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Post by Amira on Jan 24, 2007 11:01:01 GMT -5
I still dissaprove of statutory rape It wasn't that Aang's younger than she is, it's that he's 12. The boy doesn't have a hair on his body. He hasn't even reached puberty. No, spook, this isn't about numbers. It's about the fact that Aang still orders the kids meal at McDonald's. I still order the kid's meal and I'm 30...LOL. Actually most of the Kataangers I know support a definite canon resolution to the question of "do they love each other," with a full-blown relationship happening in a couple of years. I personally ship Kataang for the bond they have now and what they could be down the road. And being in love doesn't mean make-out sessions. Aang at 12 isn't going to run the bases with Katara, but I do think he can and is capable of understanding what he's feeling. And for me, if by the series end Aang's has his feelings acknowledged and returned, I will be a happy girl.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jan 24, 2007 11:41:02 GMT -5
@ yiceman, I'm a very loyal Zutarian but this question has popped up so many times I think alot of us are just tired of putting our points out there and debating (as fun and interesting as it can be sometimes) and are just waiting for some new episodes to discuss
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Post by Mashnii on Jan 24, 2007 13:03:46 GMT -5
Let me take in one of those karmas Mash ;D Seriously most people are up in arms if Aang and Katara share a kiss together. Seriously its not going to be any graphic full make out tongue in cheek junk. The creators will make it tasteful enough, so even the most stubborn of people will at least go aww that was nice. It may be close to what Sukki and Sokka did, but it will be special in its own view. Society has take to the norm of preference of younger girl to older guy, but the creators have put the yang down flipped it and reversed it to older girl younger guy. I know this is not really seen much in society but its there. Aang and Katara certainly don't mind kissing each other to say the least, So i hope the kiss wont turn people's stomach into a pile of sickness mush. Come on, they are at war, trying to stop it, after all is said and done, if its in each other they find happiness and they wish to kiss, let em do it, Im all for it! Nicely said. I shall karmalize you when my hour's up. ;D
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jan 24, 2007 23:17:55 GMT -5
Kataang stuff: The bond they ahve is great, and yeah I would love to see that evolve in the end if that's they way the story goes. About his age, I was expressing my opinions on the good and bad of the ship. For some reason people ignored what I said about the good and went right to bashing the bad :0
And you know, it might be based in a different culture, where people are married at 9 and have great-grandchildren at 17, but this cartoon is made and broadcasted in america, so unless they want to tick people off, they're going to keep things from getting taboo.
Which is why I doubt they'll get completely lovey-dovey right away. But some people seem to want them to, and my response to that was: I'm sorry, it just bothers me to think of a 12-year-old involved in that kind of relationship. I can't change how I feel, folks.
WHich is why I suggested they wait 3 years to do that sort of thing. Honestly, what's wrong with that??? >=0 Let's try to compromise a little, jeebus.
Zutara stuff--this ship is based entirely on hope and faith. I don't like faith. I think faith is a silly thing. Faith is believing in something with absolutely no rational proof. So I'm not a Zutara supporter.
I will admit though, zutara had crossed my mind long before I plunged into the series of tubes called The Internetz" and found these sights. I think I know why myself and thousands of others found it appealing, to.
From the beginning, they were the only major male lead and female lead in the series (besides Aang and Sokka), so naturally people think they could get together. Also, they're probably the two most attractive characters. So naturally people think about it and go "ooooohhh...how enchanting..."
Also, it COULD happen. It's not impossible. Despite the circumstances, they've been put up against each other for extreme measures. In a world of peace, they would go quite nicely with one another. As for how it would effect the story, it would be probably THE SINGLE MOST interesting relationship to watch unfold. I mean, if kataang happened, it'd be "Katara I love you" "Hey, I love you too." "sweeeet." Boring. Watching two enemies, who by all rational reason should oppose each other, but can't deny what they feel? Magic.
So that's WHY people like Zutara, unfortunatly there's still no proof. No signs it'll happen, no evidence, nothing but minor details that were probably accidental, but people who are desperatly searching for signs pounce on and elaborate. Until there's proof, it's all just wishes and wants.
I like both these ships. I like just about all ships, because I like the characters. There's only a few I dislike (Mai needs to stop eating babies before I think she's relationship material), most of which are the completely outlandish ones *cough*Jetko*cough*
And some are definently more likely to happen than others. I think Taang is impossible. I have doubts about Soph/Tokka (any ship with Toph, really. I think she's fine single. Plus, she doesn't even have breasts yet). I kicked around the wild, Ty Laang theory for a while, based off my assumption that Ty Lee's decendent of air nomads, before I squashed it as highly impossible.
Again though, for most people shipping is about what you like most. I'm too logical to be a true shipper, and logic has no place in love.
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Post by Shirozora on Jan 24, 2007 23:33:56 GMT -5
Strangely enough, I'm starting to get sick of Avatar!Ships. All these people arguing for and against and accusing each other of this and that and using anything and everything to back up their claims and.....gods....I'm starting to not care which ship will sail in ATLA.
Ah hell maybe Mike & Bryan will turn and not give us ANY ships to sail! Maybe no ship will sail! Maybe everyone will fall in love with other characters! Who knows? Who really, really knows?
Despite everything, all the evidence, all the symbolism, all the nitpicking, the only solid true stuff are Aang's love for Katara, Sokka's relationships with Yue and Suki, Mai's childhood crush on Zuko, Jin and Zuko's interactions, and Ty Lee's crush on Sokka. Ya...everything else....is hypothetical....random....absurd......stupid Existentialists.....
Okay, you can all shoot me now.
~Shirozora
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