asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
|
Post by asian malaysian on Jul 31, 2008 21:02:48 GMT -5
But their relationship is far worse than Zuko & Azula. Say what you will, but Azula has reached out to Zuko and Mai and Ty Lee more than they've reached out to her (wait, no Ty Lee reaches out to Azula plenty- she's the only person to ever hug her). People may say that Azula wants nothing to do with anybody and would be happier alone but I think she really does want to have a relationship with her family. ^^ Azula and Zuko are still in their teens and they have both actively tried to kill each other. How can you say that the relationship between Ozai and Iroh is worse than that? Edit: Actually, the fact that Ozai never tried to have his brother killed may show that he isnt such a monster after all. Either that or it was just a serious lapse in judgment.
|
|
SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
|
Post by SpiritBender on Aug 1, 2008 21:41:47 GMT -5
^^Seeing as how we know next to nothing about Ozai and Iroh's relationship, I don't see how people can make these judgments. For one, we've NEVER actually seen Iroh and Ozai directly interact with each other. Second, the only thing that we actually do know about their brotherly relationship is that Iroh is much older, was the greatly revered leader of the Fire Nation military for many years, and that Azulon greatly favored Iroh. Even after giving up the seige of Ba Sing Se, Azulon was infuriated by Ozai's mere suggestion that Iroh should be stripped of his position as heir to the throne. From these few facts, all we can do do is conjecture. It would seem that Ozai was greatly envious of Iroh -- both for his military prowess, and his position as heir. It does not seem likely that Ozai's position growing up mirrored Azula's growing up, in that he was neither the more gifted firebender of the two siblings, nor the favored of the firelord as Azula was. The fact that Ozai tried to manipulate his brother's misfortune to acquire the throne, rather than challenging Iroh directly, STRONGLY suggests that Ozai was too scared to even think of taking on his brother.
Personally, I don't think that Ozai is even half the firebender Iroh is. Even with the comet power, I didn't think that Ozai was all that impressive, and he certainly didn't do anything even close to what Iroh did when he knocked down the entire front gate of Ba Sing Se with one maneuver. Not to mention that although Iroh was rarely seen actually fighting throughout the show, he constantly demonstrated that he had a deeper understanding of fire, as well as the principles of fighting themselves, than any other firebender. Some people may disagree simply because we haven't directly seen as much of Iroh kicking butt, or because of fandom, but I strongly believe he's currently the greatest firebender in the world.
At any rate, I don't think that Ozai and Iroh's relationship is a fair parallel to Zuko and Azula at all. Do I think Ozai would have attempted to kill Iroh if he had the chance? Most definitely. However, unlike Azula he did not dare to try taking down Iroh. I find it rather ironic that Azula, Ozai's favored, ends up getting outmatched by Zuko, who is Iroh's protege. It also goes back to one of the points that the writers kept repeating in that determination and wisdom are more important than talent.
-- Spiritbender
|
|
asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
|
Post by asian malaysian on Aug 2, 2008 6:50:47 GMT -5
The fact that Ozai tried to manipulate his brother's misfortune to acquire the throne, rather than challenging Iroh directly, STRONGLY suggests that Ozai was too scared to even think of taking on his brother. ^^ I think this was more a case of prudent strategy than fear. Firelord Azulon had the final say in who would be the next Firelord ? Its like that line in No Country for Old Men. "Point bein', even in the contest between man and steer the issue is not certain." Why risk getting even mildly injured in and agni kai if it can be avoided? Personally, I don't think that Ozai is even half the firebender Iroh is. Even with the comet power, I didn't think that Ozai was all that impressive, and he certainly didn't do anything even close to what Iroh did when he knocked down the entire front gate of Ba Sing Se with one maneuver. Not to mention that although Iroh was rarely seen actually fighting throughout the show, he constantly demonstrated that he had a deeper understanding of fire, as well as the principles of fighting themselves, than any other firebender. Some people may disagree simply because we haven't directly seen as much of Iroh kicking butt, or because of fandom, but I strongly believe he's currently the greatest firebender in the world. -- Spiritbender I agree with your description of Iroh but I also think that we saw enough of Iroh kicking butt (not to mention Iroh's all but bare butt) in season 2. Do I think Ozai would have attempted to kill Iroh if he had the chance? Most definitely. However, unlike Azula he did not dare to try taking down Iroh. . What about when Iroh surrendered at the end of Cross Roads of Destiny? Ozai simply had Iroh put in prison instead of having him executed as a traitor. Otherwise, I have to agree with most of your post as I ussually do.
|
|
SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
|
Post by SpiritBender on Aug 2, 2008 10:25:51 GMT -5
Perhaps Ozai spared Iroh because he still carried too much respect as the Dragon of the West; high-ranking military officials and nobles might turn against Ozai if he killed Iroh. In other words, Ozai feared even his brother's reputation, let alone a direct confrontation. As Iroh said, any direct conflict between Iroh and Ozai would cause too much strife and instability in the Fire Nation political situation. And yes, Iroh was labeled as a traitor after CoD, but keep in mind that the only people who TRULY know what happened there are Azula, Zuko, Iroh, the Dai Li, and the Gaang. Even Ozai didn't truly know what happened until Zuko told him, and most people in the fire nation probably only heard third or fourth-hand accounts. In other words, many people would be hard-pressed to believe that Iroh would ever betray them, and there would probably be an outcry against Ozai if he executed Iroh. Either that, or it was simply Will of the Macrocosm -- the writers needed Iroh to stick around, so they had him imprisoned rather than executed. Anyways, it is not Iroh who was "scared poopless of Ozai" -- it's pretty obvious that it's always been the other way around. -- Spiritbender
|
|
|
Post by azula1 on Aug 2, 2008 21:40:17 GMT -5
No one has yet to discuss the 2 most important moments when Iroh should've stood up to Ozai:
1. When Ozai and Ursa killed Azulon! Maybe since this is a children's show and they could never really come right out and say that they killed Azulon it's never brought up. But come on, Iroh's a smart cookie, shouldn't he have suspected that something was up? Especially when the Fire Queen disappears without a trace? Maybe Iroh doesn't care about Azulon either! I don't know about you, but if someone I loved was murdered I would definately convert the murderers. But Iroh was too scared, shocked, surprised, or never suspected to do anything.
2. When Ozai burnt Zuko. All he did was look away. Brother or no brother, parental discipline or not- he could've done something, (at least said something). But no he just let Ozai do whatever he wanted.
And as for Iroh knowing more fire bending than anyone ever (I can believe part of that since he did find the last dragons and all). But he admits in the finale he couldn't beat Ozai (and was too wussy to try). We never see too much Ozai bending to know for sure. But all I know is that even with the comet's power Iroh didn't try any new or special moves like blue firebending, or powering himself up for flight. Is it possible that Iroh is past his prime and not able to do new things like that? I'm sure his age has something to do with it.
|
|
|
Post by dragonflly on Aug 2, 2008 22:20:33 GMT -5
^^I think he was being modest and he wanted Zuko to understand the ramifications of that act. People would look at it as Iroh killing Ozai for power. Remember, the people think Azulon died, they don't know he was murdered. They also believe that it was Azulon's will to have Ozai take the throne. They don't know the truth. Iroh is right, they would see it as a horrid act of one brother seizing power from another, and nothing more. Heck, Iroh would probably have lost alot of respect by fighting Ozai.
The little we have seen of Iroh suggests that he is full of kickarsery, he took out 6 Firebenders on his own at the North Pole, and Zhao ran away rather than face him. When I first saw "Zuko Alone" I thought it was very cowardess of our all mighty Ozai to take the throne the way he did. I agree with Spiritbender in saying that Iroh was not the one who was "scared poopless" of his brother, but the other way around.
|
|
|
Post by azula1 on Aug 3, 2008 13:20:41 GMT -5
I still don't understand the whole "it's because brother vs brother would be bad for the FN thing". I get it. But Iroh was the acknowledged heir to the throne for 50 plus years and then all of a sudden the night before Fire Lord Azulon died he ups and "disinherits" him and nobody not even Iroh questions it! That makes no sense! Not even a hint of palace gossip or anything. Ozai must've had had major support backing him up the yin yang to pull that off.
If Iroh is so beloved and respected, he'd have been able to overthrow Ozai pretty easily. Especially if he did it early on. But it's just easier for him to let Ozai do whatever he wants and put all the pressure of righting the world's wrongs on Zuko.
Oh yeah, and another reason Ozai & Iroh don't fight all the time is because there's no older Iroh equivalent goading them into fights either.
And yes, Azula & Zuko have a MUCH better relationship than Iroh & Ozai:
1. They actually talk to each other.
2. Azula bent over backwards to bring Zuko back home and give him a shred of dignity upon his return (everyone creamed themselves going on and on about how mean old Azula sent up poor duped Zuko into taking the fall for killing the Avatar and it was just a lie and boy would she be in trouble when Ozai found out.) Well the other shoe never dropped. Azula gave Zuko the credit for killing the Avatar so that he would be a success. Seriously would you want to come home and stand next to your baby sister who conquered Bai Sing Sei in a matter of weeks while you couldn't even capture and keep the Avatar? Talk about humiliation!
3. Zuko flat out said she wasn't his problem in "The Beach". They may be rivals. But I don't think they hate each other to the death. Agni Kais are ruthless, ruthless fights, yes. That just might be how the FN is.
4. Zuko came to her for advice several times (in "The Avatar & the Firelord" he asked her about great-great-great-great-great grandfather Sozin to which she says he wasn't paying attention in history class (which implies thats she's also a straight A student and Zuko's not quite as good) and answers his questions and she tells him to go to the military strategy meeting when he was stressing over it) and she offered advice to him (like when she told him not to visit Iroh because people would talk).
5. Azula also made sure that she and Zuko were invited to "The Beach" party. Azula's a pretty enough girl that no one would be mad if Ty Lee just brought her along. If she were truly mean she'd have gone without Zuko and then told him afterwards about all the guys that hit on Mai.
|
|
SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
|
Post by SpiritBender on Aug 3, 2008 14:07:14 GMT -5
I still don't understand the whole "it's because brother vs brother would be bad for the FN thing". I get it. But Iroh was the acknowledged heir to the throne for 50 plus years and then all of a sudden the night before Fire Lord Azulon died he ups and "disinherits" him and nobody not even Iroh questions it! That makes no sense! Not even a hint of palace gossip or anything. Ozai must've had had major support backing him up the yin yang to pull that off. If Iroh is so beloved and respected, he'd have been able to overthrow Ozai pretty easily. Especially if he did it early on. But it's just easier for him to let Ozai do whatever he wants and put all the pressure of righting the world's wrongs on Zuko. Iroh vs. Ozai would be bad for the Fire Nation because it would mean civil war! Yes, Iroh was the heir for many years, but nobody except for Ozai, Ursa, and possibly Azula actually know what happened that night. All that the Fire Nation people saw is that Azulon passed away, and that he decreed Ozai to be his heir -- right after Iroh abandoned the seige at Ba Sing Se. Most people wouldn't question it, or if they did they'd be too scared to say anything. Ozai was now in charge of the military, and the elite guards and all the Fire Nation forces, so nobody could really question him without being guilty of treason. Iroh probably figured out what actually happened, but he was far away at the time and could not stop it. If he truly wanted to take the throne back, it would be a very bloody internecine struggle. Some of the military would support him, some would support Ozai, and it would be a terrible civil war that would greatly weaken the Fire Nation. Also, you keep forgetting that this is when Lu Ten died, and gathering what the creators have said this is when Iroh had his spiritual journey. He realized that power struggles weren't worth it, and he decided not to contest Ozai's claim to the throne. Some may call it weakness; others may call it enlightenment. Iroh quite possibly could have taken his throne back, but he didn't want to pay the price in blood of Fire Nation people. Yeah, except for the fact that Azula REPEATEDLY tried to murder him. All those times that Azula was "watching out for him"? She was using him, plain and simple. Azula will manipulate and use all the people around her to her own advantage. If she included someone in her plans, it's because she thought she could somehow use that person to help her achieve whatever goals she had at that moment. That was the entire basis of her relationship with Mai and Ty Lee, as well as why she brought Zuko along with her everywhere. In Ba Sing Se, she used him to help defeat the avatar. Back at home, she played him as her patsy. The fact that she set him up to take the fall for the avatar's survival is no small detail -- it's incredibly devious! As for the "other shoe never dropping", that's because Zuko did something she never expected -- he joined the avatar! As far as Azula was concerned, Zuko was bound by his need for his "honor" as he always had been, and she could continue to manipulate him as she pleased. She messed with his mind, placed fears and doubts in his head, and continued to lie to him. Azula never counted on the fact that he would wake up and realize that he didn't want his father's "honor", because she never thinks past power games. Same goes for why Azula never anticipated Mai and Ty Lee actions. Azula always used to fear to control people around her, and never realized that there are feelings more powerful than fear. Hokey and cliched as it may sound, real love is far more powerful than fear, as we saw when Mai finally stood up to Azula. Azula is brilliant at strategy and manipulation, but is incapable of conceiving of the kinds of feelings that motivated Zuko to do what he did. She never once interacted with him in a way that wasn't manipulative, without underhanded motives, or outright violence. For all the airs that Azula may have put on, Zuko was never anything to her other than an obstacle to winning the throne. End of story! -- Spiritbender
|
|
asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
|
Post by asian malaysian on Aug 3, 2008 19:28:26 GMT -5
^^Iroh was thrown into a prison and treated like dirt by even the warden. I honestly dont think that Ozai had considered Iroh to be a threat at all but just a broken down fat old man which was what he had potrayed himself to be. I think that was the main reason he was content to let Iroh rot away in prison-well that and the will of the Mike & Bryan Lion Turtle Twins.
|
|
|
Post by azula1 on Aug 4, 2008 15:02:22 GMT -5
New question: Is Ozai really a bad monarch to his own people? Yes, yes he's certainly a bad father (burnt and banished Zuko and turned Azula into a nearly unfeeling weapon). Yes, he's a bad son- he plotted to kill his dad. Yes, he's a bad brother- usurped Iroh's throne (though the bad brotherhood goes both ways) and ordered Iroh to be thrown in jail. It's not known whether or not he's a bad husband since we never really see him and Ursa together that much- but we do know he didn't remarry and put another woman on the throne. Yes, he's a bad king to the rest of the world. But is he bad to his own people? There certainly was a lot of fan wank going on that the FN people hated the war and Ozai. Yet when the GAang finally went to the FN- there were no protests, marches, people speaking out against the war, no civil disobedience, not even whispers agaisnt Ozai or for Iroh. Sure the kids in "The Headband" lived in the town from "Footloose". But I'm sure people were expecting much worse: like over crowded slums, forced labor camps, crippled soldiers and a Dai Li like organization keeping tabs on people and oppressing them. The FN citizens almost seem to have it pretty good. The bulk of the battles take place in the EK and Southern WT, they're the most technologically advanced nation, and they won the war. Plus things are so nice that they have plenty of vacation time, Fire Festivals, Circuses, plays, and expansion of their borders. The only time anyone actually complained was that fishing villiage in "The Painted Lady" and even they didn't say anything about the war. Most telling is the fact that when FL Azulon died and Ozai became FL under questionable circumstances at best (over the allegedly more popular Iroh). No one questions it. I'm sure that while Iroh was gone, Ozai wasn't just lounging around the palace making babies, but also establishing himself as a leader and making himself popular with the people. He was after all the good looking FN Prince with the beautiful family. People would be drawn to them just because they're a good looking bunch. If Zuko can get screams and sighes at "The Beach" and just leaving the palace (with a burned face). You can imagine what Ozai must've gotten as a teen and even as an adult! One more thing, to say that Ozai isn't a good bender is doing a disservice to Aang and the whole plot of the show in that he had to face him. Out of all the other firebenders in the show only Ozai and Azula can fly. And yes, I believe Azula is better than Ozai. But Ozai (must've) taught Azula.
|
|
SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
|
Post by SpiritBender on Aug 4, 2008 18:48:03 GMT -5
^^Jeong Jeong was seen doing it it, and Zuko was seen boosting himself during his Agni Kai with Azula. And I never said that Ozai is BAD bender. He is certainly is a very skilled and powerful firebender. However, I strongly believe that Iroh is the BEST firebender in the world currently, and that Ozai pales in comparison...
As far as being a bad leader to the Fire Nation people, think about what Ozai was doing. 100 years of war takes a terrible tole on the people of any nation. The writers briefly touched upon it in The Headband and The Painted Lady; I definitely think that season 3 would have been better if they had gone into it more instead of having fillers like The Ember Island Players and The Runaway. I think it would have been really cool if instead of the Gaang saving the world by themselves, they would have been joined by people from the Fire Nation who were tired of the war, as well rebels from the Earth Kingdom and remaining Water Tribe warriors to help take on the Fire Nation military while Aang took on the firelord. But I digress...
One of the central themes of the show was balance. All of the elements, and the four nations, had to remain in balance in order for life to thrive. By killing off the other nations, the Fire Nation would throw things so far out of balance that the world might possibly never recover, and the Fire Nation itself would be destroyed as a result. Also, think about the fact that burning down an entire continent would cause MASSIVE environmental damage. There would be floods, hurricanes, and all sorts of devastation that would wipe out Fire Nation people -- not just the other nations. The key point to remember is that Ozai has no regard for the lives of the people he rules. Back in season 1, we saw that he had no problem casually throwing away the lives of his troops to gain victory (which is the whole reason Zuko spoke out against him in the first place). Ozai was only concerned with the acquisition of power, rather than being concerned with the welfare of his people, like a good leader should be.
-- Spiritbender
|
|
asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
|
Post by asian malaysian on Aug 4, 2008 20:56:05 GMT -5
^^ Zuko was speaking out against the plans of one of Ozai's Generals, not Ozai himself. There was no indication if the plan was ever actually carried out. Ozai inherited the war from his father and grandfather and he wasnt Firelord for all that long when you think about it. I suppose the worse thing you could credit him with was the planned razing of the Earth Kingdom. Its important to judge people by the norms of their times. The first Emperor of China would have been considered an absolute monster by todays standards but he is remembered for unifying the state of China. Given the mores of the culture that Ozai was raised in, he probably considered himself a very good leader for the Firenation.
|
|
SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
|
Post by SpiritBender on Aug 4, 2008 21:32:07 GMT -5
^^Ozai may have considered himself a good leader, but that's not the point that the show was making. From his own point of view, and the previous firelords and all the military leaders, the war was good for the fire nation because it added more territory and resources to the Fire Nation. However, destroying the other nations was throwing off the balance of the elements and the world as a whole, and ultimately it would result in the destruction of the Fire Nation AS WELL as the other nations. Think about what would have happened if Zhao had been allowed to destroy the moon spirit. The natural order of the world would have been devastated, as it would have had Ozai carried out the plan to raze the Earth Kingdom. One of the main points the writers were making was that despite all the propaganda that the war was good for the Fire Nation, it really only served to further the ambition of Sozin and his successors. It's the same story that any leader tells his followers to get them to sacrifice their lives for his sake. Sozin allowed his ambition to consume his reason, and the world suffered as a result of it. Perhaps Sozin originally viewed himself as uniting all four nations into one, but then he destroyed the air benders and started the destruction of the natural balance. I fully realize that there are many ways to interpret any piece of literature (written, animated, or otherwise), but I'm just commenting here on what the creators were actually trying to say with their story...
-- Spiritbender
|
|
|
Post by Princess Azula on Aug 4, 2008 23:29:50 GMT -5
Iroh would have unquestionably been a better ruler, and he would have probably been able to wage the war in a responsible and ethical manner (to the extent that war ever could be). He did not actively work against the FN until that business with the moon, and I believe that he would have ruled in a far wiser manner than Ozai did.
|
|
asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
|
Post by asian malaysian on Aug 4, 2008 23:37:41 GMT -5
SpiritBender. I agree with the basic flow of your points. As you have just noted, it cant all be attributed to Ozai who was only Firelord for -what- 6 years?. Sozin and Azulon should take on most of the blame for the war.
|
|