yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Aug 8, 2007 18:36:18 GMT -5
Long posts, so I had to take a few notes: Maylene, you stated that if Ozai is harsh, that explains why Azula might be harsh. Ok. How does this in ANY way help the arguement that she'll be redeemed? It says Azula is harsh because her father is harsh. That's an explaination, it's not an excuse. It doesn't justify her actions. Zuko shared the same father. He is a better person than she is. And besides, by the looks of things, ONLY Ozai in that family was a truly wicked man. Iroh and Ursa? Nice people. Even if Iroh was a war-mongerer in his youth, we have to determine that the compassion he has now was still there, especially towards his son and family. Azula had two other role-models to go by. Now, I couldn't find the exact quote from the interview. It was posted a long...long...LONG time ago, right when season two first premiered, and I'm not about to scavenge through the dregs of the spoilers section just to find it. I do specifically remember what was said though. The creators explained how their intent with Azula was to represent her as clearly and entirely evil, and not ambiguous like Zuko. I did find this though. The creators told the music guys to make a theme for her that represented her as evil and malicious. "Azula's theme is a variation of the main Fire Nation theme that is used throughout the series. That theme is mostly comprised of drums, bass trombones and French horns in very low registers. It's pretty masculine. We wanted to portray her femininity and power and so used the gamelan (Indonesian orchestra comprised of pitched percussion) to achieve this. We combined the gamelan's eerie bell like quality with a choir to highlight her deeply rooted and very controlled evil. Mike and Bryan explained that they wanted her to be meticulously malevolent, not stark raving mad." www.avatarspiritmedia.net/news_archive.php?month=8&year=2006Kai-- As for your waving a knife at your siblings...empty threats, neh? (at least I sure hope so...because if they weren't...that is not normal sibling rivalry). Yes, siblings fight, they make threats out of ANGER. The thing is...Azula was NOT angry. She was completely and utterly calm, composed, and relaxed. She did NOT act out of a fit of rage, and she did NOT show ANY remorse for her actions. And yes, I most definitely think she was trying to kill Zuko. What the heck happens to someone who gets hit by a full blast of lighting? They MIGHT survive...but I ask you... would any decent person who has a shred of humanity and is WORTH being redeemed even take the CHANCE by shooting her own brother with lightning? No. Why'd she save Zuko in CoD? We don't know. We need to wait until season 3. There are many different ideas out there. She didn't do it out of compassion for him. I mean, she didn't HAVE to kill him when she had him captured. She was even ordered to bring him back alive. So why'd she allow him to join her instead of just keeping him imprisoned? We don't know, but it wasn't to save his life...from herself. Ok...so you're saying that because Azula wanted to avoid shame, it's partially justifiable that she tried to kill her uncle? NO! I'm sorry, but no. Any person who would willingly injure anyone, not to mention their own uncle when he wasn't even looking, just to avoid SHAME is not a good person. And it's NOT war my friend. Zuko and Iroh are not enemy soldiers. They are two men who were running away, just trying to stay alive. They posed NO threat what-so-ever to the Fire Nation. They posed no threat to Azula....It's like a bear. If you go out and kick a bear, and it attacks you, and you shoot it and explain that you were just defending yourself...that is low. Just avoid the dang bear. Same goes for Aang. The Fire Nation was after the Avatar from the beginning. They didn't even KNOW that Aang would actually try to go after them. What they knew is he was the only person strong enough to oppose them. So, without taking the chance, they struck first. They committed mass genocide and killed an entire race just to try and get ONE person who MIGHT be able to stop them. When Aang came back, they didn't react in defense of him. He didn't strike the first blow. They went after him right away. And are you really saying that just because Azula's attempts at murder failed, that makes her innocent? Attempted murder IS a crime punishable by law you know. What I'm saying is that Azula INTENDED to commit murder with no remorse. That intent itself is enough to paint her as a person beyond hope in a narrative story. Again, I'm not talking about forgiveness and redemption in general and in real life, but in a story there is a clear line that a chacratcer can cross where redemption makes no sense and would just confuse and bother the audience, drawing them out of the experience of enjoying it. As for Azula's smile. She smiled because she was happy she just got rid of the Avatar you say? She smiled because she had won? How is that good? How is that justifiable? My friend, ANYONE who shows glee and happiness after killing ANYONE is not a good person. Even in good guys when they finish off the bad guys. How often do you see a hero pleased with himself after delivering the killing blow? They might be relieved and happy that it's all over, but the act of murder itself should never bring pleasure. Azula showed no remorse. Even after the deed is done. That shows she was not just expressing momentary relief that the Fire Nation is safe. She did not, in any way, feel sorry for murdering a young boy who has never done anything evil or malicious toward her or her people except react in defense. The show gains nothing by redeeming Azula. As I said in my earlier reasons, we already have Zuko for that, and look how long it's taking him! Why, I repeat, would they copy themselves with a Zuko clone? Please re-read my reasons, I believe I covered everything there. Again, all respect intended, sorry for the forceful language, I just believe in this as strong as the most hard-core shipper follows his ship ;p
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
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Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Aug 8, 2007 19:07:47 GMT -5
No you're right. I do not agree on how she handled things either, but I could also ask you how does:
not help Azula? You're saying Ozai's the only one who's truly wicked in the family. As for Zuko sharing the same father, but he's better than her--very true. But if you look at Zuko Alone, Zuko spent a lot of time with his mother. We hardly saw some Ursa/Azula relationship there that was positive. I mean Ursa asked herself what was wrong with her child? Shouldn't she know what was wrong with her child? I mean Azula's her daughter after all.
To me, it would just seem that Zuko was influenced by his mother; and Azula by her father. It happens. I hardly saw Ursa and Azula together and have a good thing going on. Also Ursa didn't even knew how Azula treated the turtle ducks...doesn't that say something? Sure Ursa could have been giving Zuko attention because he needed it, but that gives her no excuse to ignore her daughter and not try to establish a relationship with her.
That could've caused her to be pushed further toward her father. I mean when Zuko was performing I didn't even see Ursa smile at her daughter's accomplishments and yet when Zuko failed, she loved him and said he did well. If I had been in Azula's place, I would've wondered how my mother could praise him for failing and yet ignore her for achieving? I would even have been angry.
Ah thank you for the quote of Azula's theme. ^_^ And I apologize if my manner of writing was offensive in anyway--I have nothing against you but I also feel strongly about this.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Aug 8, 2007 19:39:43 GMT -5
So the big question is: so what?
She was influenced by her father, and that's why she's so wicked. So what? Does that mean she's innocent and deep down is a good person? No. It means that we know WHY she's evil. It doesn't mean that she's any better of a person.
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
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Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Aug 8, 2007 21:02:00 GMT -5
So the big question is: so what? She was influenced by her father, and that's why she's so wicked. So what? Does that mean she's innocent and deep down is a good person? No. It means that we know WHY she's evil. It doesn't mean that she's any better of a person. I believe knowing why is a key to unravel/undo it. You say she's not remorseful and yet Jet also wasn't remorseful. At the end of the ep "Jet" he didn't seem to feel bad about what he was going to do to the village--he tried to make Katara see it his way; but in the end wasn't he redeemed? And she tried to kill her brother, with her lightning, in the Avatar State--going against orders you said, but it was never clarified in what condition Ozai wanted those two in. He had said he had a task for her, and we find out the task is to get her brother and uncle--but it's never specified dead or alive. The thread is asking can Azula be redeemed, not if she will. I don't think she will; but I do think she could be.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Aug 8, 2007 22:04:30 GMT -5
Because I once again agree with yice and would be needlessly repeating myself ad nauseam, I'll concern myself with what has yet to be touched upon.
For what it's worth, Téa and Maylene, I enjoy reading your posts as well and am not adverse to engaging in meaningful debate with you two. It's an exercise in convictions, as well as debate-skills, and that's always something I appreciate!
The circumstances differ for which the gAang and Azula's team ( I'm not about to call them "Ozai's Angels"; never did like that name... ) came together, and we agree that the foundation, as well as the depth, of their relationships are dissimilar. ( A thoughtful analysis, by the way -- props to you for taking the time and effort to type that all up! ) Where we differ seems to lie in the integration of these relationships in relation to the storyline.
The gAang: true friends. Azula's group: Mai and Ty Lee are.
The gAang bonded quickly, and part of that was due to the time spent with one another; no doubt about it. While they had their roadblocks ( Bato Of The Water Tribe and The Deserter being the most stark examples, as you mentioned ), they were resolved without bad feelings. Their personalities were also of assistance. Though they've had their ups-and-downs, they were always able to band together and remain loyal to each other. Not once did any of them consider betrayal. Aang perceived abandonment on the part of Sokka and Katara, but that was a misunderstanding, as we all know. Their comradery can never be shaken.
At this point in time, we don't know how long Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee knew each other -- "back when they were kids", although accurate, is too vague to base an estimation on. Irregardless, Mai and Ty Lee are undeniably close. We can tell these two are friends, simply by their interaction with one another. I've never seen their friendship debated -- probably because there's nothing to debate. Meanwhile, off stands Azula in the background, disinterested in their banter. I bring up yet again her disengagement from them. Why doesn't she interact with them more? If she likes them and truly cares for them as friends, she should talk to them more often! I propose that she's using them more than anything; taking advantage of their talents and disregarding them until they're of use to her in her next new scheme. This is based on observation. The times Azula has spoken to them without explaining a plan, manipulating them, or barking out orders can be counted on one hand. I view that as a pretty sorry friendship, on her end.
If Azula cares about them, she has the strangest, most uninvolved way of showing it.
Mai has shown hints of dissention. As she'll be spending a good deal of time with Zuko, Season Three will put her "loyalty" to Azula to the test.
As for Ozai: yes. A ruse. A suggestion, based on observation of Azula's ever-scheming behavior. Because love of country doesn't necessarily equate to love for her father. Ozai ≠ the Fire Nation. While it could be said that the Fire Lord is the Fire Nation, the argument falls short when we consider Azula's blatant disrespect for her grandfather, the then-Fire Lord Azulon. Would this be true, she would've had the deepest admiration for Azulon, the "face" of the nation. She didn't. I do agree, in that she is a patriot, loyal to the core principals and triumph of her country. What if, especially after her conquest at Ba Sing Se, she comes to view herself as the best thing for the Fire Nation -- better than Ozai? After all, her accomplishments -- as a fourteen-year-old, no less! -- trump his. Her sense of patriotism could lead to an upheaval of leadership. So much for "loyalty" if that happens. We'll have to see how the third season plays out.
And please note the usage of the word "could". I'm not stating it as indisputable fact -- it remains, at this stage, purely speculation. However, I do view it to be a plausible theory, meshing well with the persona we've been shown. Just as any claim of love for Ozai is also speculation... for if it were undeniable, canonically-backed-up fact, we would be unable to debate it.
We simply don't know how she feels toward her father, but I would wager her "love" isn't genuine, based on what we know of her thus far.
Notice she doesn't show much emotion at all... she's something of a schizoid. What she does display tends toward the negative. This is a foreboding indicator of what's to come...
Azula wasn't an ordinary nine-year-old. Remember how, in that impressive display, she recalled a brilliant military maneuver from the top of her head? Her intellect was -- and still is -- astonishing. Who's to say how knowledgeable she truly was at that age?
She most certainly understood the hierarchy of the Royal Family. If Azulon died, the throne would pass to Iroh. But! What if he lost his birthright out of "weakness", or "failure"? It would then go to Ozai. And, being as favored as she was by Ozai, she might have correctly deduced that the throne would someday pass to her, as opposed to Zuko, and that's why she wanted him to become Fire Lord. Not so farfetched when we consider her prodigal smarts. Again, this is speculation, and not tried-and-true fact -- I'm basing this off of her calculating, forward-thinking personality. And, skeptic that I am, I require more proof that she actually cares for Ozai as a human being, not merely a monarchal figure she respects. Perhaps not "I love you, Dad!", but something that would display compassion. The renaming of cities; the invocation of his name to troops and nobility points more to respect than true love. So far, Azula hasn't shown the latter to anyone, and I have my doubts she ever will. So, no, I don't believe she loves her father. I don't believe she loves anyone or anything but herself...
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Aug 9, 2007 4:01:08 GMT -5
Was Jet redeemed? I don't really think so.
Did he truly feel remorse for his truly horrible actions? Did he see the err in his ways? No. He felt bad about his fight with the gAang, and he wanted to make it up to them, to be sure, but he never did have a problem with them and he never did consider them his enemies.
Jet died a racist. He didn't come to his senses...he didn't ever admit he was wrong in trying to destroy the innocents in the village. I ask you, had Aang hypothetically found a fire bending teacher already, what would Jet have done when he found out where this person was from? He turned on Zuko, a person he met, spent time with, and LIKED just because of Zuko's race. The kid was messed up deep down, and, yeah, understandably so, but that doesn't justify his actions. Was Jet evil? No, I wouldn't say so. He had good qualities, he genuinely wanted to help people, but his methods where extreme to say the least, and he had little consideration for the human life.
If Ozai had ordered Azula to kill Iroh and Zuko, why are they still alive now? She had them both captured. Compassion? PHAW!
And I really don't think Azula COULD be redeemed and still have the story make any sense what-so-ever.
Azula's redemption would destroy the space-time continuum.
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Post by isaia on Aug 9, 2007 14:24:50 GMT -5
I don't think I'm going to expect Azula to go "Sniff sniff, I'm so sorrryyy Zuko ;__;"
But I would like to see Azula's character and motives being shown in a point of view such as:
-how she probably idolizes her father, and imitates his sadistic behavior and harsh treatment towards people
-the pressure of being Firelord's little girl, and doing everything he expects of her.
-the reason behind her perfectionist behavior, to take away everything that Zuko holds dear.(?)
-perhaps revealing that she is subtly envious of what Zuko possesses; moments of humanity and mercy that draw genuine feeling and affection to people like Mai, Iroh, Ursa. wherein Azula's intimidation is the only way she can get people to respect her. That no one has genuinely cared for her (?)
haha, I don't know, maybe none of these things will happen and Azula may just get defeatzored without touching upon any of these things. XD
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Post by Karatelover on Aug 9, 2007 14:36:09 GMT -5
Sorry to say, but if Azula redemed herself, then she wouldn't be Azula now would she? I mean come on! Do you really want the best villian on the show to redeem herself? Then we wouldn't have much of a villian now would we? I don't want her to redeem herself. I want her to keep being evil, because for me it would seem to make more sence.
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
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Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Aug 10, 2007 18:03:18 GMT -5
Maybe not. But I don't think Azula's the type that goes on killing people for the heck of it--or torturing people for the heck of it. I think she tries to avoid the mess.
^_^; I don't think it would be that bad. Oh and I see what you mean about Jet...but something tells me he learned, before he died, that anyone could've been evil--not just the Fire Nation. I mean Long Feng's the one who brainwashed him and killed him--so he must've realized that even people in the Earth Kingdom can be "evil."
I enjoyed reading yours and yiceman's post too, though I love debates my skills in it are lacking. I guess I can't really say anymore because on some level I agree on some things you have stated but for now I still stick to my beliefs until proven guilty. So I guess for now we can agree to disagree---unless kaibasgirl has something to add, because I can't think of any. ^^;
Though I did enjoy our debates, but I guess we'll have to wait until season 3 comes out and see if we see anymore of Azula's personality.
Isaia I agree with you. I don't think Azula's gonna cry either and beg on her knees for the wrongs she's done; though I agree with the things you said--and I hope to see them too. ^_^ (Her motives, reasons, etc. If there's any.)
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Firework
Avatar Aang
Free like a butterfly instead of a flying boar... butterflies are prettier anyway.
Posts: 1,172
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Post by Firework on Aug 12, 2007 1:03:50 GMT -5
Why would she even WANT to change? She clearly enjoys living her life... it would be the worst possible plot twist for her to suddenly want to be good... it makes me go "ew." She's a crazed sociopath who endangered the life of Ty Lee simply to make her join and even baby Tom-Tom's with a smirk on her face. She tried to kill her own uncle and enjoys seeing her brother suffer. She tried to kill AANG, the hero of the story. I know- I am 100% positive that Azula will stay evil.
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fuego
Pabu
Four Nation Health Care
Posts: 3,430
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Post by fuego on Aug 12, 2007 1:40:59 GMT -5
Azula is still the main bad guy in the picture and she hasn't even shown her good side in all of season 2. So even if the puppetmaster is the bad guy, I treat more as a Boba Fett.
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
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Post by Maylene on Aug 12, 2007 2:43:10 GMT -5
Which one? Number one? Or the second one?
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Aug 12, 2007 3:24:29 GMT -5
Sorry for taking so long to respond, I was away for the last couple of days, but anyway. Yiceman, this is in response to your post (apologies again for taking so long), and General Z, I'm going to have to ask your pardon here, but as I don't have a lot of time at the moment, my response to yours will have to get pushed off till tomorrow or something, when I'll be able to type up everything it is I want to say (for there is a lot I want to say).
When I said we would lift a knife on each other, I didn’t mean that we, like, held it against the others throat! I meant that from our seat we’d raise the knife in the air and say something to the extent of a threat.
And yes, they were always empty, because none of us would ever actually kill the other. Sure, we’d often wish the other somehow magically disappeared into oblivion and never came back, but no, we’re not homicidal, thank you.
On the whole ‘Iroh gets injured’.
I brought the repercussions of her getting caught as one of the reasons she would do it, but I see you’re not satisfied, so how about I give you an analyses of Iroh and Azula’s relationship, and then you can see for yourself if it doesn’t make sense to you, at least to a point.
The first time Iroh and Azula interact, that we actually see, is in “The Avatar Stateâ€. They come back from the beach to find Azula sitting in their home waiting patiently for them.
How does it start off? Zuko asks her what she’s doing there.
So, wait, he hasn’t seen his sister in approximately three years, and the first thing he does is go on the defensive. Both of them, actually.
Well, no, he wouldn’t be all too happy to greet her, now would he? After all, we don’t know what exactly happened between Zuko and Azula as children and after their mother left, but what about Iroh? He hasn’t seen his niece in close to three years as well, and automatically he thinks ill of her intents, which, considering that they were, was prudent of him. Still, that doesn’t speak much about a relationship between them, we already see that he doesn’t hold the highest opinion of her integrity.
And what of Azula? The way she shouted “Don’t interrupt uncle!†pretty much speaks for itself. It’s already obvious these two don’t have much in the ways of a relationship.
Sure, he was polite to her, but to a point. He mostly kept quiet until she left, in which he did his best to dissuade Zuko from going with her, which didn’t work as he stepped right into her trap.
Then there’s that whole flashback in Zuko Alone.
After Iroh’s letter, they’re both presented with gifts. Zuko gets a pearl dagger, while Azula gets a doll.
I know a lot of people thought it was unfair that Azula got a doll while Zuko got a dagger. We see from the first flashback when she’s a kid, that she’s more a tomboy then anything else, and she isn’t the type to sit around and play “Barbie†with Mai and Ty Lee. What was her idea of a good game? Target practice, which, also, lead to embarrassing Zuko in some way.
If Iroh had ever spent some time on getting to know his niece, then maybe he would have realized that she wouldn’t appreciate a marionette.
Now, cause what girls like and what they think about is usually stereotyped, Iroh got Azula what the stereotypical girl would want. A doll. Cause, after all, what else would girls like? What else do they think about if not playing “house†and ponies and rainbows and stuff like that? (Oh yeah, that’s sarcasm.)
Granted, it can also be argued that Iroh got Zuko what the stereotypical boy would like, which is swords, and we see that Zuko certainly wasn’t complaining, cause all boys like stuff that have to do with and or are related to violence (no offense, I’m just quoting the stereotype).
Fact of the matter is, we see that even as a little girl, she didn’t have much respect for her uncle, nor much of a relationship, and she even burned the doll after her disparaging comments about him. That doesn’t exactly speak ‘warm fuzzy feelings’ to me.
Then, there’s that infamous flashback where she, to quote General Z, ‘shoots her mouth off’ on her uncle.
Does that sound like she has even an iota of respect for the man? Even a glimmer of a relationship somewhere underneath the brashness? No. For all you would know, from the way she was talking about him, if she didn’t call him ‘uncle’, you’d probably think she was talking about someone who wasn’t related to her, someone who meant absolutely nothing to her.
Sad, yes, but that’s the way life works sometimes, and I’ve already stated my reasons for this, and feel no point in repeating them.
So, given that we’ve already established, many times over, that she does not respect her uncle, and may not even consider him worth the space, does it make sense to you at all that she would spare a passing thought to attacking him when she was cornered?
And no, she was not attacking an innocent man, at least not from her perpective. I’ve said this before, and I’ll repeat myself, Iroh and Zuko were both labeled as traitors to the Fire Nation. Iroh was blamed for the failure at the North Pole.
To her, this man brought shame and disgrace not only to the Fire Nation, but to her father as well, more so because Iroh is both brother and general respectively. She was ordered by her father the Fire Lord no less, to bring this man to justice. Not doing so is equivocal to betraying the crown, something punishable by death in every country.
And yes, they ARE at war. What do you think the ‘100 year war’ means?! Gee, maybe it’s abbreviation for 100 yolkians eating at restaurant while anaconda’s reproduce. Even the opening states it quite clearly, ‘…Then everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked’, what does that mean? The Fire Nation declared a war and attacked! (Sorry, not trying to sound like I'm mocking you, but yeah.)
Now, she was cornered. Cornered. I’ve told you why it would be a horrible thing if she got captured, but let’s say for the sake of arguing, she wasn’t thinking about that when they were all surrounding her and she was doing it purely for selfish, ego-related reasons.
I do not believe for even a moment that Toph, Aang, Katara, Sokka, Iroh and Zuko really and truly believed that Azula was going to “come quietlyâ€. And given what we see of her character, driven, ambitious, perfectionist, did you honestly, and I ask you, HONESTLY expect her to go with them. Did it not cross your mind in those few tense moments while they were all measuring each other, that there’s a possibility that she’d evade capture, someway, somehow, and that might involve hurting someone?
And it’s so obvious from the way they all attacked her not two seconds later, that they all were waiting for such an attack. You saw the way they were all sizing each other up, they knew she had something up her sleeve. It would have been just too easy if she came with them just like that. Even when she told them ‘a princess surrenders with honor’ it was so obvious she was lying and simply stalling, that the only reason they halted was for that 000000000.000000000000000000000000.1% chance that maybe she was telling the truth. Maybe she was really going to surrender cause she was, you know, trapped six to one.
I understand what you’re saying about Iroh, and I agree that it’s horrible to injure anyone, but you’re looking at it from one side of the coin. And, for the heck of it, let’s just play out the scenario of Azula ‘coming quietly’ and see what happens.
Azula: …a princess surrenders with honor
Gang, I & Z: …
Azula: …
Gang, I & Z: …
Azula: [not attacking or doing anything]
Toph: I think she means it guys
Aang: I don’t know, can we believe her?
Sokka: There’s no reason why we should
Zuko: Why are you doing this, Azula?
Azula: Oh, would you rather I attack you all? I’m not stupid; I know when I’m outnumbered.
Zuko: Uncle, what do you think?
Iroh: [eyes narrowed in suspicion, has a pensive/reserving judgment type face] Hmmm…this is certainly proving difficult to believe.
Katara: What now?
Sokka: I don’t believe her. She chased us all the way from Omashu and through the entire night with those other girls!
Aang: If she’s telling the truth, then she deserves a second chance
Zuko: No, Azula always lies, she has something up her sleeve
Sokka: All right, how about this: we tie her up so she can’t shoot lightning at us, and then decide what we’ll do with her
Zuko: What do you mean ‘we’?
Everyone: [dramatic pause]
Zuko: Uncle, the Avatar, we have to capture him!
Katara: Oh no you don’t!
Iroh: Zuko, stop!
Zuko: [shoots fireballs]
Katara: [counters with water] Aang! Quick, run away!
Zuko: [kick/firebend move followed by flares]
Aang: [determined voice/expression] No, Katara, I’m through running!
Sokka: [while throwing boomerang] Well that’s nice and sentimental of ya Aang, but now isn’t exactly the time to be developing a backbone!
Toph: Yeah, save that for ‘Bitter Work’
[Zuko and Katara continue to fight]
Iroh: Zuko! Stop! The Avatar is not your enemy!
Zuko: [pretends not to hear, continues to fight]
Katara: [uses water whip] Listen to your uncle!
[insert grunts/battle cries/shiny light effects/explosions]
Azula: Well, this is a mildly interesting, yet boring development for the storyline. Zutara fans can rejoice (here here!), but I’m out. See you in CoD Zuzu [walks off]
And so Azula escapes, yet again. So now I pose the question back to you: will that have helped push the storyline in the direction the writers want to take it? No, they wanted some Zuko-angst, and they got it.
On Aang.
So, to start, you brought up a couple of valid points. The Fire Nation killed out an entire race for the sole reason of avoiding a threat. That was an insane thing to do, I agree, and there are some people in the Fire Nation who are insane, I agree on that to (I do not agree that Azula is one of them though).
I’m not going to try to defend the Fire Nation on what they did, heck, I don’t even want to, but I'm going to throw this out anyway, what they did reminds me strongly of when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941. It’s quite similar, really, because both were acting on the mere whim of a threat.
And yes, Aang is a threat to the Fire Nation. His destiny is to restore balance into the world. I’m not sure how else to put this. He’s going to bring peace to the world; he’s going to stop the Fire Nation from taking over; he’s going to give the Fire Lord his just deserts…tell me if you need more examples.
He is a threat to the crown. And he’s not innocent. By CoD, it was already obvious that he’s planning on taking down the Fire Nation. He, along with the rest of the gang, took apart the drill before it had a chance to pierce through the inner wall surrounding Ba Sing Se.
So by the time they meet again, Azula knows that if he gets away, her nation is done for. So she killed him (which didn’t work). Why? Because he posed a true threat to her people!
And again, she was smirking because she finished off the last true threat! She triumphed over ‘good’ if you’d like to put it that way. She, a mere mortal, killed the all-powerful Avatar, master of all four elements, bringer of peace and hope etc. etc. etc.
Killing Aang probably just boosted her ego; cause it shows the Avatar can be defeated by a fourteen-year-old girl (granted, Aang’s twelve, but technically he’s 112).
It’s not necessarily the nicest thing to do, smile at your enemies demise, but if you were brought up being taught that something is a waste of space, well, yeah. I didn't exactly expect her to be shedding tears at the fact that she killed off the last hope for the world. I wouldn't even be surprised if she planned this all out; capturing Katara cause she knew Aang would try and rescue one of his friends, and then watching as everything fell into place (similar to what happened with Ty Lee).
I’m sorry; I just don’t believe Azula has crossed the Rubicon. I still say she’s going to be redeemed in the next season. There’s also a HUGE difference between attempted murder, and actual murder. Aang survived, you cannot say her hands are stained with his blood. Innocent until proven guilty.
And I’d just like to take a minute to point out, you’re all so ‘omgshecommittedmurder’, might I remind you that Kyoshi, yes, Avatar Kyoshi also committed murder?
She killed that guy, what’s his name, forgot it, but anyway, she killed him. Well, gee, shouldn’t she have let him live? Sure, he was a tyrant and all that, but his people definitely missed him once he was gone, considering they wanted to burn Aang in oil for it!
But no. Evidently, the good can kill, but those who actually have a good reason to cannot. What a great lesson to be taken indeed.
Alright, I’m done. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with mentions of Pearl Harbor, I'm not trying to compare the two situations, just that the intent was pretty similar.
~Téa
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Aug 12, 2007 4:30:48 GMT -5
Wow Kaibasgirl, I love you! You've brought out some really good points, like Avatar Kyoshi. The person she killed was Chin the Conqueror by the way.
Also the whole Uncle and Azula relationship, yep you're right. ^_^ As I said once before in one of our PMs Uncle Iroh has never ever referred to Azula as his neice in the show. Not even in Zuko Alone. It was always, "Azula" or "Princess Azula" but not niece. Isn't that a bit strange? He calls Ozai his brother once in a while; and he calls Zuko his nephew, but Azula? Nope. I mean Iroh has said some bad things about his brother, and yet he calls him "brother" but Azula? He's said some bad things about her too--and yet he never refers to her as his niece. Isn't that...odd?
As for Azula being cornered yeah I know what you mean. Also it was pretty obvious she could've killed the man if she really wanted, so why not just finish the job? That's a bit merciful. XD
Everyone's been hard on Azula for her attempted murder of Aang and Zuko and Iroh; but it is war. Even the good guys are forced to do so, like Kyoshi, and yet they're not condemned.
What's that saying? Everything's fair in love and war? There are some who believe that saying.
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reyairia
Haru
Tea Keeper of the Zutarian Army
Supporting pairings for the lulz since 2001.
Posts: 309
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Post by reyairia on Aug 12, 2007 7:56:36 GMT -5
Is Azula redemable? It's possible, but I don't find it at all very likely unless something special happens in S3 that reflects a lot more of her human side to make up for what we've seen in S2.
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