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Post by mahatista on Dec 2, 2006 12:22:07 GMT -5
Is there one more season (Fire book) or two (Fire, Air books)? I thought there was only one more, but some on the board have been talking about two more. Anyone know?
If it's two more then I think Zuko is the FireLord that Aang will defeat and he won't find his good side.
If it's one more then I think there's hope for Zuko. But he's going to have to have one elaborate trick up his sleeve to not appear the dumbest person on the face of the earth.
Of course his sleeves tend to get ripped off when he goes bad-Equus asinus so maybe he can't hide any tricks in there afterall.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 2, 2006 15:01:54 GMT -5
^I havent heard anything from the creators about a fourth season... But if so, maybe they are going to free BSS or try to restore the peace again. They have to defeat the FN next season because the season is during summer. Unless they make the summer two seasons long. At the end of summer is the comet, and after that there is no chance of defeating the FN. They have already played up Ozai as the grand villain, and keep him shrouded in mystery, so I doubt the Fire Lord Aang faces will be Zuko. No one said anything about Zuko asking forgiveness. More like an outright and public betrayal of Azula... Or dying a sacrificial death to save the heroes, the world, or both. Or all of the above (betrays Azula, then soon dies to save the heroes, the world, and everything). There is also the grim possibility that he never gets redeemed, but that wouldnt make much sense at this point. Why all the development toward the good side, then nothing? Well I rewrite: why would he do that (betrayal, outright, etc.)? I see no developpement towards the good side but more towards himself. Zuko's on his own side now, no longer looking for what people want him to do (Ozai, Iroh) but more about what HE wants. That's an improvement. Wrong. He is looking for Ozais favor, again. Myself, I doubt he will denounce Azula, unless his guilt over Iroh gets too strong, or she betrays him (which is sorta inevitable). We have seen that happen to Zuko before. Before his metamorphosis. Not too sure now what he would do. Selfishness is never an improvement. My personal reasoning about him redeeming himself goes like this: 1. His warrant has to go up to wanted just "Dead". The creators mentioned something about it somewhere. Several other people remember them saying something about it, so I know I am not out of my league here. 2. Ursa. Zuko isnt going to stick around Azula if he wants to find Ursa. And somehow I have a feeling if Zuko learned what really happened, his confusion about Ozai would only grow worse, or he will come to hate Ozai for it... 3. Its obvious Zuko feels conflicted and even upset with himself for his choice. 4. Azula is probably planning on taking him to the FN for justice and he just doesnt know it. Capture Iroh. Get Zuko on the dark path while he is useful and let him lead himself into the FN prison. 5. All that has happened this season, has to be for a reason. Not just Zuko nearly turns good, gets on Kataras good side, then turns evil again and betrays her and Iroh. So I think either at the very end or later on, Zuko is redeemed. But like I said before, I have a feeling his path will be twisted until next finale, then he will die.
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
all credits to relaxed_guru89
Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 2, 2006 15:28:17 GMT -5
Looking for Ozai's favor? I doubt. Azua used the same trick than in Avatar State. To think Zuko fell to the same trap, is to think he's as stupid as his feet. Selfisheness is always an improvement. When, for years and months, you did eerything to please others, aka Ozai then Iroh, being bashed everytime you did otherwise, in the point to take their dreams as yours, then looking for ONCE to what you want, is an improvement. Then, everything you'll give will come from heart. 1. I've never seen a link which lead me to the said creator's speech. As rumours stay rumours...and even if? He may betray Azula for his own purpose, not to please Iroh or the Avatar. 2. Rumour. Why can't he look for Ursa while working with Azula ? Can't he do that without Iroh or the Gaang or whatever ? 3. It's not obvious for me. Zuko would feel guilty for nearly anything. 4.As I said, I don't see how he could fell for the SAME trap: for all we know, he plans something on his own. 5. Why not? And Zuko doesn't turn bad , he turned to his own roaaad... He won't die: he'll trick Azula at her own game.
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Post by mahatista on Dec 2, 2006 15:33:47 GMT -5
If Zuko dies who will be Fire Lord? I supposed they could intro a new character in season 3. Maybe Jeong Jeong somehow can take the throne?
I don't think he can redeem himself after another Azula betrayal. He's been down that road before. If he's going to redeem himself at all he needs to come to the conclusion he's on the wrong side by himself. Possibly guilt over Iroh. But the whole tricking him by saying "Father will welcome you back..." has been done.
And he may not redeem himself. Some have said this whole thing was a trick of his to take down Azula from the inside, but I disagreed with that because he was truly trying to kill Aang and Katara. Now I realize just because he's against Azula doesn't mean he's FOR the Avatar. He can want to kill them all.
The water is muddy indeed.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 2, 2006 16:10:36 GMT -5
^I think he's mostly angry and confused. He sees Azula as the lesser of two evils. He doesn't know who he hates more: his manipulating sister (who tortures him), or the Avatar (who tortures him, too, in a different way) he felt "cursed", by his own father, to pursue for the rest of his days. We'll have to see what happens. For now, Zuko has gone from sympathetic, to pitiful, to downright Gollum-wretched. bibi: There is a difference between selfishness and wisdom to know not to listen to someone. One cant help but be affected by what people say, but one can take everything people say with a grain of salt, then come to their own conclusion. Apparently, Zuko doesnt have that wisdom, since he scurried to Azulas side. And, yes, judging by the end, I'd say Zuko is looking for Ozai's approval. I wish he was working against Azula, but the truth is he's a horrible thinker and liar, and Iroh wouldn't ever allow Zuko to pull a stupid stunt like that. Rather, I see it as he's an abused kid. There are cases like his. The parents hurt them, perhaps even try to kill them, but the child keeps thinking their parents are good and keeps standing up for them. And there are cases of the abused believing the most obvious and ridiculous lies, even those that have already been used. Especially if it's something good about their parents that they long to hear. Words of/a chance for love, acceptance, etc. Because the kids keep lying to themselves about it, and blaming themselves and God for their troubles. I am not for Zuko joining the gang. Dont jump to conclusions. Please. And I said nothing about betraying Azula for Iroh or the Gang. Though I do see himself redeeming himself in the end of the end by dying to save them. And who said anything about Zukos warrant changing having anything to do with the Avatar? Azula was sent to capture Iroh and Zuko. Now it looks like Zuko is going to be heading to the FN. Maybe he will get Ty Lee and Mai on his side and make rough amends with Iroh, and they all run away, then Zuko looks for Ursa. He looked ready to throw up in the end, and Azula wasnt even looking at him. That doesnt sound like acting or planning to me. Also, Zuko is a horrible liar, remember? Betraying the only person who cares for you? That sounds like going bad to me Actually, Zuko was never good (he needed redemption before he betrayed Iroh). And now hes even less good, and the redemption road will be much tougher now. I have a theory about his fate. It has a lot to do with his first dream. It probably wont happen, but Nick did say his dreams predicted strange things, and our first guess, his scar getting healed, was not one of them. I already posted it elsewhere, but here it is again. It's touched up a bit, but it's mostly c/ped. ~His "honor" appeared to be restored (but some fans said it looked a bit like it was a "fake future" or Zuko was playing Fire Lord) and he looked stable (in a dark way). The dragons both fought for his mind. He listened to the blue dragon after Iroh told him to run. Then Iroh's dragon disappeared, the room faded away, then everything went wrong. He lost everything. Azula's dragon lunged at him, then he saw his mother was in trouble... he reached out to her helplessly... then he collapsed into nothingness (died). However, he didnt have his scar, the symbol of darkness and shame in him, so I think he dies and redeems himself, after failing to save Ursa. Part of that dream has already happened IMO. But I could be dead wrong and something worse happens. The show tends to go in a kinda depressing, though interesting, direction with him.~
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
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Posts: 706
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Post by bibi on Dec 2, 2006 16:48:29 GMT -5
So, Zuko can change from sympatic to "Gollum-wretched", but he can't learn how to lie ?
He has the wisdom: just because he chose a path you disagree with doesn't mean he lost his mind, he's confused or manipulated. The only one who knows what Zuko wants and needs it's Zuko (and the creators ;D), not Ozai, Iroh or whoever. He tried to be what Iroh want him to be but Lee is simply not Zuko.
I don't see everything wrong about what happened with Iroh. Why would Zuko keep a path which isn't his? He didn't made Iroh capture, it's Iroh who chose to go help the avatar, Zuko had let him in the cave and maybe deliver him from the cristals.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 2, 2006 17:05:41 GMT -5
Well, yeah. It's easier for Zuko to become a worse person than for a person like Zuko to learn how to lie easily right off the bat. He's only gone from sympathetic to Gollum-wretched because of his choice. It's how people view him, not an ability of his. And "sympathetic" and "wretched" are under the same category in the Thesaurus, thus not that big a change when you think of it. We felt for him, then we pitied him, then he betrayed the fans and he became the "wretched" villain.
I said nothing about Zuko choosing the path I didn't want him to take. I said nothing about him losing his mind. I said he was confused. And who said anything about Zuko deciding to be "Lee" was a good or bad thing? Zuko seemed honestly happy to be just "Lee", until Azula and the Avatar came along, so yes, it probably was good in a way, but it was also not good because it meant he was letting go of Ursa's last request. In other words, it would've been neither good or bad for Zuko to become "Lee".
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 2, 2006 17:18:28 GMT -5
I posted my long-winded opinion on this in the "Is Zuko crazy" board under general discussions if anyone's interested. I don't feel like typing it all over again O.o
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bibi
Warrior Sokka
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Post by bibi on Dec 2, 2006 17:22:25 GMT -5
Well, he said himself "he has changed", he played very well when Jet said he was firebender, in Zuko Alone, with Jun, etc. He's good liar, not as much as Azula but he's working on it.
I wrote "confused" in my list "what Zuko is not", too.
Zuko wasn't happy for himself: he was happy because Iroh was happy. He always says "I'm happy for you, uncle". He didn't want to disappoint him and faked happiness (I told you he was a good liar). So it would have been bad if he stays Lee (at least for the show).
Who's "we" who felt for him, pitied and felt betrayed ?
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 2, 2006 19:17:04 GMT -5
I say "we" for the general fandom, even though I'm not included in "we" in this case, because I am an Avatard. I felt bad for him, but I also understood about the complexes of his character. I don't know what he's doing right now. I'm kinda annoyed, kinda intrigued, but I didn't feel betrayed. I did have a sudden thought though... Maybe you are right about his lying ability getting better. Aang can lie convincingly if he isn't ashamed. Maybe Zuko did let go of his shame, and is pretending he's on Azula's side. But I hope not. Mostly because my own character pulled the same stunt in my novel... and Zuko's starting to look and sound like him (both guys are also angsty, and have "father/guardian" issues. Go figure : .
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Arsid
Zhao
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Post by Arsid on Dec 2, 2006 20:03:42 GMT -5
I now hate zuko. The finale totally made me all of a sudden hate him. When he attacked Azula im like YA, YOU ARE NOW MY FAVORITE CHARACTER. Then two seconds later i was yelling NO, YOU ARE TOTALLY MY LEAST FAVORITE CHARACTER.
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Kyatto
Kyoshi Azula
Dance, magic dance!
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Post by Kyatto on Dec 2, 2006 20:05:03 GMT -5
I was so glad when the "Happy Zuko" went away. Happy Zuko made me cry.
Up until the GAang prevented the scar-healing I was about to rename him "Bukkake". Then Season One Zuko came back and I was a pleased little minx.
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Post by Ikkin on Dec 2, 2006 21:19:54 GMT -5
Well, he said himself "he has changed", he played very well when Jet said he was firebender, in Zuko Alone, with Jun, etc. He's good liar, not as much as Azula but he's working on it. I wrote "confused" in my list "what Zuko is not", too. Zuko wasn't happy for himself: he was happy because Iroh was happy. He always says "I'm happy for you, uncle". He didn't want to disappoint him and faked happiness (I told you he was a good liar). So it would have been bad if he stays Lee (at least for the show). Maybe Zuko's ability to act and Zuko's ability to create a convincing cover story are unrelated. He certainly has no ability with the second (too many pauses, claiming things that are easily disproven, etc.), but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's necessarily inept with the first, as well. And it's not like he'd have to work very hard to come up with the things he'd say if he was to have actually joined Azula (as opposed to coming up with fake names on the spot, or coming up with a false past for oneself). ...so, basically, I agree, though I think it might be more complicated than that.
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Post by Ryth76 on Dec 2, 2006 21:27:34 GMT -5
At the end, when they showed the shot of BSS after Zuko and Azula's final scene, you hear a note in the music beat that sounds like a cell-door slamming shut...
I watched the whole episode over again twice now, and it still leaves a kinda bitter taste in my mouth about Zuko. But that could be because I really don't like his outfit in this episode. I think we'll just have to see about next season.
Either he's planning counter-coup, or he really did turn against Iroh and the good side, then regretted it in the end and will later turn against Azula. Either sound acceptable to me right now, since it seems really odd to me that he'd take second place as villain after his development. If anything, he should be either first place or turn good.
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fuego
Pabu
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Post by fuego on Dec 2, 2006 21:33:51 GMT -5
I have a question
Upon look at "The Guru" Did Zuko already made his destiny prior to the second encounter in "The Crossroads of Destiny" Just asking since there a lot of very will detail discussion in this thread
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