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Post by mahatista on Dec 10, 2007 22:54:25 GMT -5
It wasn’t supposed to make you think Mai is agonizing. Just that she’s hesitating and it especially shows in the action when they do this big close-up of her face, If they really "didn't show her the least bit bothered by it", those screenshots wouldn’t be here at all. What you see as hesitation I see as nothing. We see it different ways. I have watched that scene carefully because people have thrown that screenshot at me before. I've even rewound it and I don't see any change in facial expression that would lead me to believe she cares. When she told Zuko "it's over!" in the beach she turned away from him and we saw a split-second frown. Same thing when he turned away from her in N&D. A split second of a frown tells us exactly how she feels. Azula couldn't see her face at that moment, so a facial expression would not have been out of line. Point being, with Zuko they've given her those tiny moments where you see she cares (and even feels the opposite of what she's saying/doing), but they didn't do it at that Tom-Tom moment. Like I said, I'm willing to believe it was an oversight. I think that speech in episode 305 may have been an effort to explain away their oversight because it wasn't the least bit relevant to anything else we've seen of her. Unless it was foreshadowing of course.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
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Post by nandireya on Dec 11, 2007 2:10:41 GMT -5
Kinda like how Zuko betrayed the only person who actually loved him for his own selfish reason? Zuko agonised over that from pretty much the moment he did it...Mai hasn't shown one iota of remorse.
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Post by mindbender18 on Dec 11, 2007 3:09:52 GMT -5
So? That doesn't change the fact that he did it.
That's your opinion because I saw hesitation in her face, like she was weighing her options. Go against Azula and risk her killing you and your brother or just play along with her and both of you survive. She made the smart choice (I knew this before i even started caring about Mai)
But like you said, we see things differently.......
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
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Post by nandireya on Dec 11, 2007 3:14:07 GMT -5
^ Also doesn't change the fact that she did it.
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Pleading Eyes
Kyoshi Mai
I feel violated... and crispy
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Post by Pleading Eyes on Dec 11, 2007 3:14:14 GMT -5
So? That doesn't change the fact that he did it. But Zuko made his decision because he thought he was doing what was right by his country. That was his big conflict. A part of him knew his country was wrong, but he still wanted to believe that it wasn't. So he chose to make himself believe that his Uncle was the traitor, like Azula so persuasively told him, and so by going against his Uncle he was doing the right thing. Mai's disregard towards Tom-Tom's well being was not a choice made out of a deep conflict. She just didn't seem to care. And like others have pointed out, when it came to her own discomfort, she chose to defy Azula, such as in the Drill. So why is it that she defies Azula when her comfort compromised, but is suddenly "so afraid of her" when her brother's well-being is at stake? That just doesn't make much sense...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2007 3:34:12 GMT -5
Mai's disregard towards Tom-Tom's well being was not a choice made out of a deep conflict. She just didn't seem to care. And like others have pointed out, when it came to her own discomfort, she chose to defy Azula, such as in the Drill. So why is it that she defies Azula when her comfort compromised, but is suddenly "so afraid of her" when her brother's well-being is at stake? That just doesn't make much sense... Mai did care about Tom-Tom thats way she obeyed Azula's orders.Just think about this if Mai would have disobeyed Azula and gotten Tom-Tom Azula would most likely punish her. But not by inflecting physical pain on her but by hurting or even killing Mai's family. Mai's decision was not made out of a cold heart but out of knowing the consequences. Also keep in mind that no matter who the character was in this situation they would have still obeyed Azula or else the episode wouldn't follow the original plan. You also mentioned how she defied Azula in the Drill, Mai's family wasn't at risk it was just Mai alone there was no one to protect. Plus if they won Azula wouldn't even notice Mai didn't listen.But they lost ,and its never said Azula knows ,the only way for Azula to find out is trough Ty Lee.I doubt Ty lee would betray Mai.
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
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Post by inuyatta on Dec 11, 2007 3:38:32 GMT -5
It's amazing how many ways people see the same moment onscreen--I was sure that the close-up was meant to emphasize that this girl, who we've seen to care about nothing thus far, STILL can't summon up an ounce of anything remotely like concern for her infant brother. I thought that was the point, it's like 'nope, doesn't care about being nobility, doesn't care about the city-wide epidemic, and when her baby brother's well-being is at stake? STILL nothing.' Really, it's the only interpretation that seems to make sense without going off speculating Mai's positive qualities which may or may not exist--and frankly, no, there is nothing solid to say that Mai is indeed a good person. She's a dingy grey character, as Ty Lee said.
Mai was seemingly built on one principle only--Zuko is the only thing that seems to inspire her interest.
That is rather creepy when you think about it.
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Post by hamburger on Dec 11, 2007 3:42:37 GMT -5
Or maybe it's the fact that people tend to watch the show for what they want and not what the show is actually giving them?
First couple of episodes, that was Zuko's attitude as well.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
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Post by nandireya on Dec 11, 2007 3:43:47 GMT -5
She's a dingy grey character, as Ty Lee said. Mai was seemingly built on one principle only--Zuko is the only thing that seems to inspire her interest. And she still had her dingy grey aura when she was with Zuko... Am I the only one who thinks that Zuko wasn't the only one to get what they wanted only to find out it wasn't what they wanted at all?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2007 3:47:58 GMT -5
Your are forgetting that in the beach Mai defend Ty Lee against Zuko's rampage and also how she let Toph, Sokka and the Earth king escape in CRoD. If Mai was only interested in Zuko she would have sided with Zuko in the beach.
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Post by hamburger on Dec 11, 2007 3:49:57 GMT -5
I remember people comparing Mai to Helga, and acted like that was her attitude towards Zuko.
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Pleading Eyes
Kyoshi Mai
I feel violated... and crispy
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Post by Pleading Eyes on Dec 11, 2007 3:51:20 GMT -5
Your are forgetting that in the beach Mai defend Ty Lee against Zuko's rampage and also how she let Toph, Sokka and the Earth king escape in CRoD. Hold on, letting the Gaang escape? All that proves is that Mai doesn't CARE. Which is exactly what we have been arguing. It wasn't an act of mercy or kindness on her part, she just didn't care. And again, it was a defiance of Azula, who obviously she doesn't fear as much as some people think. Or because in that moment she was in a fight with Zuko that she didn't side with him. And it's precisely because she cares enough about Zuko to be angry with him, that she argued with him. How many other people have we seen her argue with? Again, the show has only shown Mai to have one interest; Zuko. And not a very enjoyable one for me to watch. Because it seems to me, when they're together, all Zuko does is either suck face, spew cheesy OOC dialogue, or emo out (which he doesn't need help to do).
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
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Post by nandireya on Dec 11, 2007 3:56:35 GMT -5
If Mai was only interested in Zuko she would have sided with Zuko in the beach. Well then...if Mai ISN'T only interested in Zuko then why are so many automatically assuming she'll side with him and turn against her family, her friends and her nation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2007 4:00:23 GMT -5
Your are forgetting that in the beach Mai defend Ty Lee against Zuko's rampage and also how she let Toph, Sokka and the Earth king escape in CRoD. Hold on, letting the Gaang escape? All that proves is that Mai doesn't CARE. Which is exactly what we have been arguing. It wasn't an act of mercy or kindness on her part, she just didn't care. And again, it was a defiance of Azula, who obviously she doesn't fear as much as some people think. No, because in that moment she was in a fight with Zuko that she didn't side with him. And it's precisely because she cares enough about Zuko to be angry with him, that she argued with him. What I mentioned befor proves Mai has good quality's that you chose to ignore . Mai shows her emotions differently and a lot can be said in her actions, Mai can care( Nightmares and Daydreams) if she didn't care she would have dumped Zuko a long time ago.
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Post by mahatista on Dec 11, 2007 4:02:12 GMT -5
Mai's disregard towards Tom-Tom's well being was not a choice made out of a deep conflict. She just didn't seem to care. And like others have pointed out, when it came to her own discomfort, she chose to defy Azula, such as in the Drill. So why is it that she defies Azula when her comfort compromised, but is suddenly "so afraid of her" when her brother's well-being is at stake? That just doesn't make much sense... Mai did care about Tom-Tom thats way she obeyed Azula's orders.Just think about this if Mai would have disobeyed Azula and gotten Tom-Tom Azula would most likely punish her. But not by inflecting physical pain on her but by hurting or even killing Mai's family. Mai's decision was not made out of a cold heart but out of knowing the consequences. Also keep in mind that no matter who the character was in this situation they would have still obeyed Azula or else the episode wouldn't follow the original plan. You also mentioned how she defied Azula in the Drill, Mai's family wasn't at risk it was just Mai alone there was no one to protect. Plus if they won Azula wouldn't even notice Mai didn't listen.But they lost ,and its never said Azula knows ,the only way for Azula to find out is trough Ty Lee.I doubt Ty lee would betray Mai. This is you writing a script that wasn't there. All we have is what was shown to us and what you've written above was simply not even implied. With Ty Lee she was shown what would happen to her if she defied Azula. You might surmise that Mai already knew that and therefore, being smarter than Ty Lee, went along from the beginning. However, it would be terrible writing to never actually show the audience that Mai understood that -- even with a facial expression as I've pointed out -- especially when compared with the scene in the same episode where they highlighted the bullying of Ty Lee. The comparison showed Mai as someone who was perfectly willing to go along with all of Azula's plans. As I've been saying though, they may have changed their minds about how they portrayed her and they're trying to make it up now with The Beach and the way she had a completely different -- almost Katara-like -- personality in N&D. Her character in season 3 has looked like a scramble to say the least. Here's something you'll like Nandireya. I theorize they'll do an episode all about Mai's situation -- "Mai's Lost Days" or "Mai Alone" if you will -- and iron out all the kinks and haphazard characterization they've hit us with in these past two seasons. That way they can end it the way they want to whether they did the original legwork for it or not. I don't want to see that happen, but it hit me that it's about the only way they can get her from point A(zula) to point Z(uko) without much of the audience throwing up their hands and saying "oh come ON!"
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