+Javu+
Hakoda
[Keeper of the Seven Chakras]
Posts: 1,953
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Post by +Javu+ on Dec 25, 2007 15:07:11 GMT -5
Evil is a strong word. It shouldn't be used lightly. But some people deserve to be called evil. Does Souzen?
What we learned a couple episodes back, with the relationship between Souzen and Avatar Roku, was that not all Firebenders are bad. It was setting up the whole Zuko joining the Gang thing.
But if you take what Zuko said during DoBS and that episode.....
Zuko stated that the FireNation had this....glory, power...and they wanted to spread it across the world. Looking back, that's what Souzen said. He wanted the other Nations to recognize their wealth and share it with them.
But it didn't turn out that way, did it? It turned into a huge, messy war that lasted and is still lasting around 100 years. To me, it doesn't seem like anyone is sharing wealth and glory.
Maybe there was a mistake? Maybe something went wrong? My thoughts are that Sozen didn't want it to turn this bad. Maybe he isn't this horrible monster everyone thinks he is.
But then I think. No. He let his best friend die. He killed all the Air Nomads except Aang. He wanted to kill the next Avatar. He used the comet. He started the war.
But....maybe things just got out of control. Maybe he underestimated the comet? And maybe once he got started, he couldn't stop? And it wasn't just him who couldn't stop, but the whole Fire Nation for the next 100 years? Maybe he just had a vision for the world and it got out of hand?
Note: I'm not saying that Sozen was this nice little lad, but maybe he wasn't totally evil?
Comments?
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Post by admirality on Dec 26, 2007 6:46:01 GMT -5
Sozin was cooooool!!!!!!! I don't think he was evil ok he was naughty naughty man but not definately not evil..........
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+Javu+
Hakoda
[Keeper of the Seven Chakras]
Posts: 1,953
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Post by +Javu+ on Dec 26, 2007 13:20:19 GMT -5
.....can you back that up with thought to make this thread more interesting?
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zukostalker
Zuko
Leader of the Spoink Revolution!
Posts: 102
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Post by zukostalker on Dec 26, 2007 13:23:47 GMT -5
That sounds plausible, and didn't someone say he had regrets on his deathbed?
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+Javu+
Hakoda
[Keeper of the Seven Chakras]
Posts: 1,953
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Post by +Javu+ on Dec 26, 2007 13:38:09 GMT -5
Dunno....what's plausible?
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zukostalker
Zuko
Leader of the Spoink Revolution!
Posts: 102
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Post by zukostalker on Dec 26, 2007 13:43:34 GMT -5
Plausible means it could happen, or there's a chance it could.
EDIT: O.o Redundancy much?
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Post by admirality on Dec 26, 2007 14:29:48 GMT -5
.....can you back that up with thought to make this thread more interesting? erm erm I'll try (but bear in mind I am increadably bias) Well I class evil as a nasty malicous unthinkable inhuman acts e.g stabbin kittens, or wasting pie Where as naughty is more acts of betrayal and world domination these acts are thought about and planned........ This is why I call Sozin / Ozai naughty...... rather than evil......... I wud class Voldemort as evil coz he was not human but not sozin or Ozai My logic is hopelessy flawed and I know my argument is crappy but at Least I put some thought in this time
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Post by firelordsozin on Dec 26, 2007 17:06:39 GMT -5
I don't think Sozin was evil at all. Unlike some of his successors and their offspring(i.e. Ozai and Azula), he did not start off as a bad egg. I think what happened to Sozin is that he was probably hurt that his best friend in the world and fellow fire nation countryman did not share in his dream. Remember what Roku said, he and Sozin shared a lot of things, this dream of Sozin may have been there first disagreement or thing that they did not see eye to eye on. Sozin didn't have a wife when he told Roku about his idea, his father was already dead, it is unlikely that he had any children, and his mother was probably dead too. Roku was the only person in his life he could count on, and in Sozin's eyes, Roku let him down. Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming Roku at all for the way Sozin acted. We are all responsible for our own actions. I am just saying that maybe Sozin took Roku's rejection a little harder than it appeared. As for killing the Air nomads, this was pretty bad. From the stand point of a man with a dream, however, it was a necessary step to take. After his experience with Roku, Sozin realized that the Avatar could not be swayed from doing his/her duty under any circumstances and regardless of any past relationships. Since Sozin was indirectly responsible for his best friends death, I guess he figured that he might as well go for broke and continue down the path that he had already chosen. He had no way of knowning the exact Identity of the Avatar, so he did what any person with a lick of intelligence would do...wipe them all out. The fact that Sozin showed regrets of his past actions and thought about Roku on his deathbed showed Signs that Sozin could be redeemed and that he still maintained some of his humanity.
For Ozai and Azula, however, these traits are non-existant as they have never showed regret for anything.
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Post by dragonflly on Dec 27, 2007 1:26:34 GMT -5
Was he regretful about his friend or was it that he didn't get the Avatar and he did not see he incredible plan come to the light before he died? Seeing as how he was upset that he missed the Avatar during the genocide of the Air Nomads, that may have been th last thing on his mind.
He really didn't care what the other nations wanted or what they thought, he forced people to do as he wished and if they didn't, they paid for it. Anyone see anything wrong with that? I think he used the "sharing it with the world" comment as a cover up for his "expanding our empire" statement. That last one really makes an impact, for me. It was greed, not charity, that started the war. You can't force someone to take something they don't want, unless you don't care what they want. He had only one thing on his mind, and that was to rule the world.
As for the Air Nomads, they certainly didn't try to share anything with them now did he? He killed them like they were bugs. They were in his way, he didn't even give them a chance. Anyone who can justify this...........I can't even say. There is NO justification for genocide....period. He seemed to know what he was doing was wrong, and wanted to make sure that he wasn't stopped. Yep, no evil there at all.....um, right.
When he left his friend die, he lost his humanity and thus became evil. When he systematically killed the Air Nomads, it solidified his evil, there was no turning back.
We don't know much about Azulon, but he seemed to be big on tradition. He may have been carrying on the war because it was his dad's dream, or maybe he too felt the same. One thing is for sure, Ozai is evil!! He's carrying on the war simply to rule the world and Azula carries that trait. These two truely feel the FN is the strongest nation and no other nation has a right to live, unless they are their prisoners. Power trip to the extreme.
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Post by firelordsozin on Dec 27, 2007 17:27:32 GMT -5
Some valid points, but I still don't believe Sozin is as evil as we once thought he was. After seeing what he was like earlier on in his life, I still think that he had some good left in him when he died.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Dec 27, 2007 18:00:56 GMT -5
Sozin was more ambitious than evil...he just let his ambitions get away on him...and was willing to do just about anything to follow through on them...including leaving his best friend to die on the lip of a volcano.
The same could probably be said of Ozai...perhaps he truly believed he was teaching his son a lesson...but I'm not so sure about Azula...she seems to get a kick out of seeing others suffer.
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attonbitus
Blue Spirit
I'm in ur clouds, steel'n ur thundar
Posts: 2,121
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Post by attonbitus on Dec 27, 2007 20:25:48 GMT -5
What would sway me if he was evil or not would all depend if the FN struck all the air temples at once or one by one.
If they were all struck at the same time then he was evil, it was part of his plan to get rid of the avatar. If it so happened that he ordered the air nomads enslaved (like the benders in the southern water tribe) but it just so happened a blood thirsty general order their extermination. One could make the argument that Sozin after learning about knew the die was cast and he probably just went along with the aftermath.
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Post by dragonflly on Dec 28, 2007 0:31:24 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Sozin had them attacked. He says that he missed the Avatar, and spent the rest of his days looking for him, I even think he says that he ordered the Air Temples attacked. Could be wrong about that, I haven't watched eppie 6 in a bit.
Ambition is the root of evil, so in my opinion that was the start of the turn, I really don't think there was any good in him in the end.
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Zink
Ty Lee
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8
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Post by Zink on Dec 28, 2007 0:36:26 GMT -5
^ Uh, that's the love of money. The love of money is the root of all evil.
I think he committed acts of evil, like, say, allowing his best friend to die and starting a genocide, but I don't know if I'd call him evil, because we saw his doubts, and how he WANTED to help the other nations. It didn't turn out that way, but his intentions were good.
Then again, Hitler thought he was the savior of Europe.
I dunno, guys. It's a tough issue.
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Post by yasudaratsu on Dec 28, 2007 0:59:03 GMT -5
^Yeah, it all depends from which POV you see it, he was helping his people but perjudicating others in the process
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