Sozen: Is Evil Too Strong?

[+Javu+]

firelordsozin said:

I don't think Sozin was evil at all. Unlike some of his successors and their offspring(i.e. Ozai and Azula), he did not start off as a bad egg. I think what happened to Sozin is that he was probably hurt that his best friend in the world and fellow fire nation countryman did not share in his dream. Remember what Roku said, he and Sozin shared a lot of things, this dream of Sozin may have been there first disagreement or thing that they did not see eye to eye on. Sozin didn't have a wife when he told Roku about his idea, his father was already dead, it is unlikely that he had any children, and his mother was probably dead too. Roku was the only person in his life he could count on, and in Sozin's eyes, Roku let him down. Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming Roku at all for the way Sozin acted. We are all responsible for our own actions. I am just saying that maybe Sozin took Roku's rejection a little harder than it appeared.
As for killing the Air nomads, this was pretty bad. From the stand point of a man with a dream, however, it was a necessary step to take. After his experience with Roku, Sozin realized that the Avatar could not be swayed from doing his/her duty under any circumstances and regardless of any past relationships. Since Sozin was indirectly responsible for his best friends death, I guess he figured that he might as well go for broke and continue down the path that he had already chosen. He had no way of knowning the exact Identity of the Avatar, so he did what any person with a lick of intelligence would do...wipe them all out.
The fact that Sozin showed regrets of his past actions and thought about Roku on his deathbed showed Signs that Sozin could be redeemed and that he still maintained some of his humanity.

For Ozai and Azula, however, these traits are non-existant as they have never showed regret for anything.

I really like what you said. Do you mind if I take it a bit further?

firelordsozin said:

Remember what Roku said, he and Sozin shared a lot of things, this dream of Sozin may have been there first disagreement or thing that they did not see eye to eye on. Sozin didn't have a wife when he told Roku about his idea, his father was already dead, it is unlikely that he had any children, and his mother was probably dead too. Roku was the only person in his life he could count on, and in Sozin's eyes, Roku let him down.

So Sozen and Roku are best buds. Then Roku left to go train with the Air Nomads first. He made friends with Aang's teacher, Gatsu or something. Can't spell, sorry. Anyway. In the flashback, we saw that Roku was laughing and really having fun. Where as in the FN, Roku did have fun, but in everything, he seemed second best to Sozen. Is it possible that when Sozen attacked the Air Nomads, it wasn't just because of that he knew the Avatar would next be in the Air Nomads, but because he was a bit jealous of them?

[dragonflly]

mutantgoldfish said:

^ Uh, that's the love of money. The love of money is the root of all evil.

I think he committed acts of evil, like, say, allowing his best friend to die and starting a genocide, but I don't know if I'd call him evil, because we saw his doubts, and how he WANTED to help the other nations. It didn't turn out that way, but his intentions were good.

Then again, Hitler thought he was the savior of Europe.

I dunno, guys. It's a tough issue.

Yep, no wars have EVER started from ambition, just wanting more money.

Ambition is just like greed, you have it and you can't let it go. Ambition makes you do bad things and you can't stop, or maybe you just don't want to. It makes you think that everything you do is justified, when it's not. Ambition is the start of evil, if you don't stop yourself, there's no turning back.

[Zink]

^ No, sweetheart, it's not a philosophical argument. The saying "the love of money is the root of all evil" is from the Bible.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." -1 Timothy 6:10, New International Version.

I'm not saying that you have to accept it as fact because it's in the Bible, but you can't change the quote. If we all could do that, I have a new Great Commandment, "Love thy Zink as thyself."

Anyway, ambition is kind of a double-edged sword. Yeah, it makes people do bad things, but if no one had ambition, we wouldn't have a society. We'd have a bunch of people lying around all day doing nothing. And then we'd all die.

So ambition is necessary. It just can't get out of hand.


and ambition doesn't really start wars unless your intials are G, W and B.

[zutara234]

Karma for you my young friend!

[firenationstooge]

I'm one of those folks who believe that because of Avatar's main influence (Miyazaki), there are no pure evil or good character in the world. Granted this gets me into a bit of trouble with trying to explain characters like Azula and Ozai... But I still stand by my view.

Even though Sozin betrayed his life-long friend and plunged the world into a century of war, I personally don't think that he can be labeled as evil, since he has shown many good traits even during his later years (he did originally go to Roku's side to aide him, and only betrayed him when the opportunity was staring him in the face).

I just wish that the cause of the war, or at least the cause advertised to the general FN populace, was to correct a past injustice, as apparently hinted by "the darkest day in FN history." But as things stand now, it really seems like Sozin conquered just for the heck of it. I can't believe that the general population bought the argument of "spreading their glory to the world by force."

mutantgoldfish said:

and ambition doesn't really start wars unless your intials are G, W and B.

I C WHUT YOU DID THAR. >_>

[historyman12]

mutantgoldfish said:

^ No, sweetheart, it's not a philosophical argument. The saying "the love of money is the root of all evil" is from the Bible.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." -1 Timothy 6:10, New International Version.

I'm not saying that you have to accept it as fact because it's in the Bible, but you can't change the quote. If we all could do that, I have a new Great Commandment, "Love thy Zink as thyself."

Anyway, ambition is kind of a double-edged sword. Yeah, it makes people do bad things, but if no one had ambition, we wouldn't have a society. We'd have a bunch of people lying around all day doing nothing. And then we'd all die.

So ambition is necessary. It just can't get out of hand.


and ambition doesn't really start wars unless your intials are G, W and B.

hey! you're posting more!



anyway.


Evil might be a little strong. Someone, I believe Atmos or Attonbitus, said that Ozai was revealed in DOBS to not be neccesarily emuhuhahaha evil, but poisoned by ambition. Sozin, as I see it, is the same way, but much less. We don't know if he wanted to call it quits after a certain degree. We don't know if Azulon misinterpreted his ideals and kept thee war going too long. We don't know if Sozin was maladvised by his friends, we don't know if Ozai REALLY went "conquer the world"


So yeah, Sozin wasn't evil, but this whole war thing, when viewed only as Sozin's creation, makes him appear evil. Make sense?




oh, and, what is it with you people and Bush hating

[Zink]

^ Bush? I didn't say anything about Bush, now, did I? I was talking about Gerry Wilson Barber, warmonger extraordinaire. Yeah. Sorry for taking politics out of the CT boards. Please continue with your regularly scheduled programming.

FireNationStooge: Interesting point- I guess you could argue that Azula's actually just a product of brainwashing and such. She wasn't close to her mom, the "good" parent. Her father clearly praised her for her talent in Firebending, which started to lead into a competition with Zuko, and beating him was so much fun it whetted her hunger for conquest. Ozai seemed really distant as a parent (more of a disciplinarian than anything) and they probably didn't get much consequence for misbehavior after their mom died. She was pretty much a brat by then, and now she's pretty much a brat that follows Ozai's commands. Can she really be evil if she doesn't know wrong from right?

I have no comment for Ozai. Maybe he's poisoned by ambition, too, but I think he's just evil.