kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 17, 2007 14:09:34 GMT -5
If I'm weak, I'm weak, but that's life. There are people who break under pressure, and there are people who find the strength to rise above it. Besides, you never know how you'll really handle tragedy until you actually experience it.
Jet was eight years old when it happened, you don't tell a kid that age to "rise above their pain". That's just being cruel.
And, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can say that no one has a right to anything. Jet had every single right to despise the Fire Nation. If anything, they're the ones who should be asking his forgiveness.
We may not be helpless victims in the face of circumstances, but certainly circumstances can weaken us, where the boundries between what's right and wrong become messed up.
I'm not saying what he did is excusable, murdering the innocent never is, but his views were twisted at the time. He showed remorse for his actions though, that's enough for me.
I really want to drop the HP discussion, so forgive me if I don't respond to it, but it looks like we agree at least on one thing: Jet didn't have the time to get over his racism, unlike Dumbledore who lived a long, full life.
As for why I keep bringing in real life examples...if you can't understand it, than I can't explain it to you.
Forgiveness is mandatory? Maybe for the one who committed the crime, but certainly not for the victim! If they can find the strength of character to forgive those that have wronged them, than that shows true valor, but no, my dear, that is not normal to have to forgive people for their doing if they show not the slightest remorse for their actions. They aren't denied redemption because of that.
Ah, you're right about Sokka. Touché.
~Téa
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Zoya
Jet
Pappu Can't Dance Sala
Posts: 355
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Post by Zoya on Sept 17, 2007 15:06:27 GMT -5
I guess you could say Jet redeemed himself...
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Post by mike1921 on Sept 17, 2007 15:25:57 GMT -5
And everyone who voted for that concentration camp thing did something extremely rasicts. You know what? Your mother is a rascists. yea"somone of my race killed your parents I'm so sorry please forgive me" This is crap. He doesn't think that all of the firenation is inherinetely evil. Otherwise he wold've hated Jeong Jeong and he would've just assumed Iroh was lieing in the season 2 finale
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 17, 2007 15:39:06 GMT -5
A person can be excused for some sour feelings towards a nation that wronged them...
But holding such strong hatred that you willingly murder innocents of that same nation? No one has that right. That is racism. Flat out, balls to the wall, extreme racial hatred that goes way past refusing to marry someone from the Fire Nation, but being eager and ready to murder innocents from the Fire Nation who have nothing to do with the war.
Now, again....no one here claims Jet was Super Evil Villain McGee...we understand he was messed up in the head.
But does that excuse him?? No! Did he need to redeem himself? Yes! A murdering, racist terrorist could really use some redemption.
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nhldork87
Teo
icon made by earthtoph4 . thank you!!
Posts: 429
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Post by nhldork87 on Sept 17, 2007 16:06:52 GMT -5
Isn't Jet dead? How could he redeem himself?
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 17, 2007 16:08:26 GMT -5
LOL. "Sour feelings" Yiceman? Than I suppose when Sela and Lee turned on Zuko after he saved them, that was also just "sour feelings", right?
I didn't say what he did was excusable. It was outright wrong. However, as I keep saying, he showed regret. Does that atone for it? Yes. Does that "justify" it? No. Does it mean he'll burn in heck because of it? No.
He learnt from his mistakes. That's the main point. When he discovered Iroh and Zuko were Firebenders, he didn't go on a mass killing spree again. He did it the "right" way, if you will, by trying to find evidence first and report them to the authorities.
He is not a "murdering racist terrorist". He was once but he changed. Just like Iroh was once a ruthless general, but is now the sweet uncle we know him as.
Yes, he died still hating the Fire Nation, but does that mean he wasn't redeemed? I don't think so.
~Téa
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Post by mike1921 on Sept 17, 2007 16:21:54 GMT -5
Jet never found evidence that Zuko was a firebender and still attacked him if I remember correctly. I think he wanted evidence so longshot and smellerbee would help and/or support him. Who are Sela and lee?
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 17, 2007 16:43:11 GMT -5
No, he didn't, and that was cause he let his impatience get the better of him.
He didn't need evidence for Longshot and Smellerbee, he needed it so that the people would believe him, and more importantly, the Dai Li. If he was trying to prove to them that they were Firebenders, they would've been hiding with him when he took Iroh's spark rocks.
Lee is the peasant boy from "Zuko Alone", whom Zuko gives his knife to, and Sela is Lee's mother.
~Téa
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Post by Confettie on Sept 17, 2007 17:56:01 GMT -5
Why not just compare it to the KKK then? What was the reason the KKK hated African Americans again? Oh yes they believe that they white people were superior to color people. You know who else in the Avatar world believe this? The Fire Nation. You seem to act like the only people in the whole Avatar world that is racist is Jet. Well your mistaken. Kaibai brought up Lee and his mother. Zuko save Lee and his family, but once it was reveal that Zuko was a firebender Lee wanted nothing to do with him. How did Zuko this? He understood, why because he realizes that everyone in the Earth Kingdom hates the Fire Nation. Heres another question? Why did Zuko hide his identity? Did he really think the Earth Kingdom citizens would turn him to the Fire Nation? They hate the Fire Nation, why would they do any favors for Ozai? I'll give you the answer because all Earth Kingdom citizens hate Fire Nation people. Here is another person General Fong, he sure was racist too hah? You want to know what? That story was to back up this quote. So if your going to attack my arguments attack that, not my mother. I share that story hoping that people wouldn't take it literally and see how it was connected to Kaibai's quote. Real life experiences are better ways to back up an arguement then stuff from fiction. Want to know why? Because it's real, history always has a way of repeating itself. I can't even explain how tick off I am right now. So I'm leaving. Later! Good luck with the arguments Kaibai!
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Post by mike1921 on Sept 17, 2007 18:33:43 GMT -5
Did I ever say Jet was the only racists in the avatar world?"well there's alot of rascists here to so were aloud to be rascists" Your the one who broubt up your mother and told us about your mother hating vietemese? What if your mother was a member of the KKK? then would I have the right to call her racists? I believe the earth kingdom aint in love with fire nation people,and they might mostly be rascists. but Zuko had other reasons to not reveal his identidy,it's better that if Azula threatens the town and asks for Zuko no one knows. And the News " fire lords son turned against Fire Nation" would spread pretty fast since it is big words,and maybe Azula would hear the word somewhere.
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Post by conspiracytheorist on Sept 17, 2007 18:40:58 GMT -5
Geez, tempers are running a bit high here. Including my own, I'm sad to say... Sorry for lashing out at you before, kaibasgirl. I can't and shouldn't expect everyone to conform to the same beliefs that I hold. That's the trouble with a topic like this one; your answer depends a lot on your personal philosophy, and if there's a clash of beliefs, things can get ugly. Karma for being a good sport throughout the entirety of this debate.
I think that yes, circumstances can weaken us. But it's my belief that we must never give in to that weakness, and that it must never be used to excuse our actions. That's why I also believe that forgiveness is an imperative - because forgiveness is a demonstration of overcoming that weakness.
Well, it doesn't get more simple than that. We both recognize the facts for what they are, but we have totally different opinions. I've put my opinion out there, so I'll back out of this topic now (before I totally fly off the handle again lol). It's been fun.
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Sept 17, 2007 20:50:20 GMT -5
the lack of empathy in this thread is pathetic. no one could make the exact judgement jet made. how can you say he was right or wrong? when you have never been in a situation where your parents have been killed, your made an outcast, and you form a band that everyone is lookingup to you in. all the hatred and feelings continue to pour out and then you make an irrational decision. with all the pressure on you to do the right thing your going to make a mistake especially when you are that young and reckless with a lack of experience. he tried to make the right move and i'm sure he had thought about it for some time, i think it is very similar to the atomic bomb. if he had not flooded the town how many more lives would be lost? maybe the fire nation would burn the whole town down use a different kind of tactic maybe burn the whole forest down with it, just to rid the valley of the insurgence of jet and his gang. you don't know you were never in the situation. i don't know how we can judge him in that aspect when we have never been put in said position.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 17, 2007 20:57:52 GMT -5
LOL. It's okay conspiracytheorist, I had my nasty moments on this board too. The debates just get so good sometimes, people tend to lose themselves in the heat of battle.
I agree with what you're saying about never giving in, but I'm just pointing out that it's often easier said than done. It's difficult to expect from a character like Jet that he'll suddenly forgive the Fire Nation for what they did to him. He took a step in the right direction, and he put forth the effort, and if given the right amount of time, he might have actually been able come to terms with what happened.
I guess I'm just one of those people who believe that it's the effort that you put in that counts, not the ultimate result.
Hey, it was fun debating with you too! Let's try this again sometime! XD
~Téa
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 18, 2007 0:27:45 GMT -5
@kaibas--All I'm arguing against here is the idea that Jet didn't NEED redemption. Again, as I said like seven times, I don't think Jet was a villain and I do give him credit for feeling remorse, but I hardly feel he was a changed person when he died a racist. Since you yourself say that what Jet did is wrong, we're in agreement, yesh?
@krayzie--Why are we supposed to empathize with a guy who tried to murder 50 innocent people? Because his parents died? So what? Sokka and Katara had their parents taken away by the war...mother dead, father gone to fight. They're significantly better people.
Aang's ENTIRE RACE was murdered by the Fire Nation. But look at him.
I don't understand how you can claim that what Jet did is ok just because of what happened to him. The fact that he was wronged doesn't give him the right to return the wrong done on him tenfold. An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.
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Post by mike1921 on Sept 18, 2007 4:49:04 GMT -5
You mean the race, or the nation. The race in general didn't do anything to him,tell me, Did every person who was born in the firenation help murder Jet's parents? the nation(as in government)? Yea,but they did that to so many people they really don't have the time to apologize to jet.
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