The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Sept 13, 2007 10:24:38 GMT -5
Hey, good debate. yice, it's true that Jet was ordered to 'help' the gaang find Appa in the first place, but the actual helping, when he took them to Lake Laogai, was voluntary; he'd broken the brainwashing by then. I agree with fnstooge and conspiracy, that Jet finally saw how evil his own people could be, and that "it's the thought that counts" in attempting to redeem oneself... but could anyone really atone for attempted massacre? Jet's mind really was messed up by the horrors of war, and his behavior did improve when he was forced to forget those memories (in a really chiling scene). The limited experience of youth, combined with PTSD, might have caused his poor judgment in Season 1; as he matured, we could see him starting to learn and make different choices. Had he survived, he'd have a hard road if he intended to implement those changes permanently. However, I think the important point that holds whether one is discussing real life or fiction is that the people close to him, those who loved him, forgave him and understood.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 13, 2007 14:46:05 GMT -5
I guess, for me, I would have had to see a scene that shows him clearly getting over his racism. Risking himself to save someone from the Fire Nation, perhaps?
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Firework
Avatar Aang
Free like a butterfly instead of a flying boar... butterflies are prettier anyway.
Posts: 1,172
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Post by Firework on Sept 13, 2007 18:35:52 GMT -5
I don't think so; if Jet were to properly redeem himself, it would be saving Sokka or even Katara's life/ helping save Zuko and/or Iroh at the cost of his own life; yet Jet dies just by trying to strike at Long Feng... so it's not even a classical heroic death anyway. To some degree, by striking at Long Feng, Jet did slightly redeem himself... but certainly not in the right way. By which I mean that Jet didn't do a wrong because of Long Feng and he died because of Long Feng... Jet could only redeem himself by doing good for Zuko and/or Iroh. Instead, the gaang gets to forgive him before he dies.
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The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Sept 13, 2007 20:51:19 GMT -5
Eh, I think that what he died doing was helping protect the whole world ~ he was trying to help protect the Avatar. But you're right, yice, I would have liked to see him overcome his prejudice towards the Fire Nation. Awfully short time-frame to expect something like that of a person, though. That's why I like Avatar ~ so realistic. How many of us ever really get to redeem ourselves?
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 13, 2007 22:05:47 GMT -5
Yeah, but how many of us attempt acts of brutal terrorism?
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The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Sept 13, 2007 22:39:06 GMT -5
Lol... but then, plenty of everyday people do terrible things in their lives, and they and their families may or may not ever receive closure. We have to make our own closure. That's why Jet's story made me really sad, but made me also appreciate that the creative team didn't go with the standard cartoon easy-out. Like I said earlier, the key bit is that those close to him forgave him. Now, had he succeeded in his plot, he'd have a lot more people to beg atonement of, and many of them would be just as likely to be unforgiving, as he himself was unable to forgive. No one ever said it would be easy. But then, that's one of the things that makes this show great: it is unafraid to shoulder a heavy burden, and does it well.
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Post by Confettie on Sept 14, 2007 0:59:58 GMT -5
kaibasgirl great post, karma you for it, I agree fully. As a child of four years of age I witness my next door neighbor's dog eat my bunny. I was scared to death of dogs for a long time afterwards. All dogs too, big, small, what ever I was scared. I didn't get over it till I was much older and realize how stupid it was to be scared of all dogs.
Anyways to the point I don't believe Jet has done anything bad enough to think that he needs to redeem himself. Lets list it out.
Good Jet Deeds 1) Taking in homeless orphans 2) Mentoring homeless orphans 3) Feeding homeless orphans 4) Protecting homeless orphans 5) Guarding surrounding territory from the fire nation 6) Helping Aang get back Appa 7) Sacrificing his life, the one his parents gave away to save, to help Aang
Bad Jet Deeds 1) Threatening old Fire Nation man 2) Using Katara 3) Plaining on destroying Fire Nation held town, key ward plaining it never happen.
Bad Deeds the Fire Nation did to Jet 1) Kill mom and dad 2) Destroy town 3) Enjoy destruction of all that Jet holds dear 4) Conquering Earth Kingdom towns 5) Killing of all the parents of Jet's friends 6) Kidnapping of Earthbenders (a la Haru) 7) destroying Jet's hideout after his plain was found out. 8) Forcing Jet to leave his home and head to Ba Sing Ce 9) Starting pointless hundred year war.
If anything the Fire Nation needs to "redeem" themsleves.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 14, 2007 1:24:30 GMT -5
You don't think attempting to commit mass murder is bad enough for him to require redemption as a character?
The guy pulled the trigger. He had the gun against the Fire Nation town's head and he pulled the trigger. The only thing that saved those people is Sokka.
Imagine a terrorist in this day and age rigging a bomb with the intent to kill hundreds. But the authorities learn of it and evacuate the building.
So what, the guy gets off free? Just because, out of nothing but the work of the police, he didn't actually manage to kill anyone? C'mon now...
The fact that Jet had the full intent to murder all of those people is enough to incarcerate him.
As I said, he pulled the trigger. He gave the signal when Katara had him trapped. The dam was blown on HIS order. Sokka saved those people.
Yet as I was saying earlier, I give him some credit because he truly seemed to feel regret for his actions. However, there was just nothing in a narrative sense that they could do to make up for what he did and redeem him that wouldn't soak up more time than they had to give. That's why he HAD to die.
The Fire Nation killed his family...that's a motive. That's why he's not a full-on villain and just a disturbed person. It doesn't justify his actions. Not at all..
Just like if, for years after the death of your rabbit, you killed every dog you came across, would not be justified.
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Post by Confettie on Sept 15, 2007 0:30:07 GMT -5
The era that Jet currently lives in is totally different. He living in a time of war, not just any war, but one that has been going on for a hundred years. In Six years of battle from World War II 620,000,000 people died. So how many people do you think died in this war? That has been going on for a hundred years. Lets see all of the Air Nomads, the Southern Water Tribe just has women and babies, and I'm quite sure that the Earth Kingdom is about to collapse. They live in war so the motto is Kill or be Kill.
Why else would the Fire Nation round up Earth Benders and put them in concentration camps. So they can't be killed by them. Why did the Fire Nation strike the Air Nomads first. Well obviously because the Avatar is there and he alone can stop the chaos. Mentioning the Avatar, he's the one who's suppose to keep order. Sadly the Avatar has been missing for a hundred years so there is no order. The laws of the land seem to be bow to the Fire Lord or die.
Also you mention terrorist, to me a terrorist is someone who uses fear for political agenda. What possible political agenda does Jet have. A homeless kid who lives in a forest with no education. So I guess Jet was blackmailing Ozai, leave the forest or I'll destroy your town. I personally believe Ozai does not care. Everyone saw how Ozai willing to sacrifice his troops for victory. A la how Zuko got his scar. Shoot he even punish his own heir for bing against him, talk about ruthless.
It's a time of war, those people living in an occupy Earth Kingdom town should have known they were in danger. They're right in the front lines, even better they share a town with the enemy. Did they seriously believe that the oppress Earth Kingdom citizens were just going to stay down forever? I doubt it, those family were probably military family so they knew the risk they were in.
The only reason that they probably didn't take Sokka warning seriously is because Jet and his crews were just orphan children. Why would a big bad Firebender be scare of some homeless kids. Though when did finally realize the threat they were in they went in there and destroy Jet's camp. Is it fair for those kids who live there? The Fire Nation took away their parents and first home. Then the Fire Nation came back and took away their new family and new home. When you live in a time of war nothing is fair.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 15, 2007 14:59:12 GMT -5
^But is that right? Is that...decent? "Why did you murder all of those innocent civillians, Jonny?" "Because there's a war going on." "Oh, ok." No. There are rules of conduct, and unwritter laws of basic human decency. The heroes are evidence of this...even Zuko is. They all show mercy. None of them have gone out of their way to kill, if they can avoid it, even when the person is trying to kill them. You can't justify what Jet did...the handful of soldiers in that village does NOT make it ok for Jet to destroy the whole place. Did you see how many innocent women and children were in there? Look...those are the people Sokka saved...the people Jet tried to kill. War or not, do you see ANYONE there in a military uniform? And Jet wanted to murder all of those people. As for a terrorist...no, not always just politics. Look at the current war in Iraq. Exteremists blow things up daily with the simple message to American troops: "get out." That's what Jet's doing. And, like them, more innocent lives get taken because of their actions than soldiers. So, how was Jet not in need of redemption?
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Post by conspiracytheorist on Sept 15, 2007 16:57:23 GMT -5
As for a terrorist...no, not always just politics. Look at the current war in Iraq. Exteremists blow things up daily with the simple message to American troops: "get out." That's what Jet's doing. Those scenarios are quite different, actually. Extremists blow things up because they want us out. But their motive for wanting us out is that they don't want American values ( political, social, etc) to spread its roots. That's politics. Anyway, before I start some unnecessary 'War in Iraq' debate, let me comment on the post I came into this thread planning to reply to... If one man's sins are greater than another's, is the other man blameless? Heck no. Jet's parents dying at the hands of the Fire Nation doesn't give him the right to kill anyone. Not those Earth Kingdom women and children, and not FN soliders. If you would maintain that Jet didn't need any sort of redemption to break out of his role as a bad guy, then you can't criticize the Fire Nation for killing innocents, either.
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Sept 15, 2007 17:29:17 GMT -5
^But is that right? Is that...decent? "Why did you murder all of those innocent civillians, Jonny?" "Because there's a war going on." "Oh, ok." No. There are rules of conduct, and unwritter laws of basic human decency. The heroes are evidence of this...even Zuko is. They all show mercy. None of them have gone out of their way to kill, if they can avoid it, even when the person is trying to kill them. You can't justify what Jet did...the handful of soldiers in that village does NOT make it ok for Jet to destroy the whole place. Did you see how many innocent women and children were in there? Look...those are the people Sokka saved...the people Jet tried to kill. War or not, do you see ANYONE there in a military uniform? And Jet wanted to murder all of those people. As for a terrorist...no, not always just politics. Look at the current war in Iraq. Exteremists blow things up daily with the simple message to American troops: "get out." That's what Jet's doing. And, like them, more innocent lives get taken because of their actions than soldiers. So, how was Jet not in need of redemption? In owrld war II we bombed the crap outta german civilians
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 15, 2007 18:32:27 GMT -5
And that was a bad thing...Dresden is something that educated Americans look back on with shame.
Heck, we felt bad right after dropping the Atomic Bomb, even though the cost of both American and Japanese lives could have potentially been even worse if America was forced to execute an invasion.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 16, 2007 2:32:45 GMT -5
Yiceman, let me ask you this: Do you see Severus Snape redeemed in "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows"?
And, I'd like to point something out, Jet is sixteen when he makes the decision to wipe out that villiage. Meaning, he's a teenager.
Teenagers do stupid things. They make stupid (and sometimes fatal) decisions. In Jet's case, his views at the time were twisted. He believed that "sacrafices have to be made in war" or, well, to quote Dumbledor, "For the Greater Good".
It's not necessarily justified per se. Really though, not trying to get personal here, but assuming that you went through puberty, and did stupid things when you were a teenager too (cause that's what most teens do, though there are those exceptions, and if you are one of them, please accept my humblest apologies for assuming that you aren't), can you justify every single one of your actions?
I know I can't, but there you have it. You can't really do anything to change the past, you show remorse, and that shows you've learnt from your mistakes and are putting in the effort to become a better person.
That's how I see it with Jet. He did something extremely stupid. He was cocky, thought what he was doing was completely right and the best for everyone all around.
Than Katara gave him a good smacking and "opened his eyes" so to speak. He learnt from his mistakes, showed regret for what he thought was right and realized it was wrong.
The fact that he died a racist?
Asking Jet to accept the Fire Nation is like asking a Holocaust survivor to accept the Germans.
There are wounds that run too deep for healing, and some that just don't heal at all.
~Téa
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Sept 16, 2007 9:26:46 GMT -5
Yiceman, let me ask you this: Do you see Severus Snape redeemed in "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows"? And, I'd like to point something out, Jet is sixteen when he makes the decision to wipe out that villiage. Meaning, he's a teenager. Teenagers do stupid things. They make stupid (and sometimes fatal) decisions. In Jet's case, his views at the time were twisted. He believed that "sacrafices have to be made in war" or, well, to quote Dumbledor, "For the Greater Good". It's not necessarily justified per se. Really though, not trying to get personal here, but assuming that you went through puberty, and did stupid things when you were a teenager too (cause that's what most teens do, though there are those exceptions, and if you are one of them, please accept my humblest apologies for assuming that you aren't), can you justify every single one of your actions? I know I can't, but there you have it. You can't really do anything to change the past, you show remorse, and that shows you've learnt from your mistakes and are putting in the effort to become a better person. That's how I see it with Jet. He did something extremely stupid. He was cocky, thought what he was doing was completely right and the best for everyone all around. Than Katara gave him a good smacking and "opened his eyes" so to speak. He learnt from his mistakes, showed regret for what he thought was right and realized it was wrong. The fact that he died a racist? Asking Jet to accept the Fire Nation is like asking a Holocaust survivor to accept the Germans. There are wounds that run too deep for healing, and some that just don't heal at all. ~Téa oh man that deserves a karma. waht a great post. yeah as a teenager myself i make stupid decisions all the time. while they are not as extreme as killing a bunch of people it happens, sh** happens. he can't change hwat he did but he can look back on it as a mistake. he does look back on it as a mistake, so that is good enough for me, maybe i'm the only one who thinks this but most people deserve a second chance. oh and talking about the lives taken in germany and japan. i look at these things as necessary risks at least in japan maybe not germany. if we had not dropped the bomb we would have done more firebombings which wiped out thousands of people each time not to mention the american soldiers lost lives in the invasion. think of the same thing as jet, yeah he had to kill earth kingdom civilians but he saved others from the fire nation soldiers there.
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