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Post by Blind Bandit on Dec 10, 2007 1:52:18 GMT -5
I agree to a certain extent I dont think we should push our Morals, ethics, and lifestyle on them, Just our Goverment... Edit Last Post: I meant to say Global not globa Sorry The problem is we are still pushing our ideals on others and I won't support that and as several already said democracy and the desire to charge and reform has to come from within.
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Post by Sokkas Sarcasm Student on Dec 10, 2007 5:59:48 GMT -5
I see what Minato is saying though. He's not saying we need to force our morals, decisions, or government on other people. He's more or less saying that we need to give those, who would otherwise do nothing, a shove in the right direction. Not as forceful a shove as has been done, obviously, as it has turned into a mistake, whether it's admitted or not by those who first supported it, but a shove none the less.
I'm not sure who said this, but I remember a quote, "Evil men prosper when the righteous do nothing". That might be biblical...I don't really know though.
It doesn't really matter where it came from, as it's true. I'm not saying everyone other than America is evil either, so please don't misinterpret, I'm just saying that we need NOT let those who would terrorize others continue their acts.
Stopping them at all costs is a commendable goal, but if you go about it the wrong way, you can, in turn, become part of the very cause you were trying to stop in the first place.
-s.s.s.
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 10, 2007 15:39:34 GMT -5
The people have to be ready for democracy. 1918 Germany was forced into it when the people would have rather kept their Kaiser, and look what a mess came off it! actually, that was because the allies, against Wilson's will, imposed a whole cr@pload of restrictions on Germany. and their economy fell apart. but that's off topic.
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Post by CountessRachel on Dec 10, 2007 20:15:20 GMT -5
I agree to a certain extent I dont think we should push our Morals, ethics, and lifestyle on them, Just our Goverment... It's less about government freedom and more about economic security. Cuz lord knows that's lookin pretty shaky for us. Thing is, government is composed of morals and ethics. (And morals and ethics through religion to a certain extent.) With Iraq, and the whole middle east, they were a long established sovereign nation with plenty of economic stability. Their government, though quite different from ours, worked for them. They have funding to fight us seeing as how war this day and age is a money game to see who can last the longest financially. What with our economy going to China and the Middle East+OPEC, democracy there is our last ditch effort, I would assume, to keep our head above the water before we experience economic fallout.
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Post by aangstheone on Dec 10, 2007 21:15:06 GMT -5
I agree that with government comes Morals, and ethics but there is always room for improvement and or a way to make things fit in their country, they can have a democracy just it would have their morals and their ethics...
@ SSS- That’s exactly what i was trying to say, thanks, people in Iraq were discouraged to speak what they wanted if they did bad things would happen (Consequences such as getting their tongues cut off, or getting stoned to death are some examples). They need a shove, and if push, comes to shove, then I guess it comes to forcefully pushing them if they don’t want to...
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Post by Gran Gran on Dec 10, 2007 21:23:18 GMT -5
I agree that with government comes Morals, and ethics but there is always room for improvement and or a way to make things fit in their country, they can have a democracy just it would have their morals and their ethics... @ SSS- That’s exactly what i was trying to say, thanks, people in Iraq were discouraged to speak what they wanted if they did bad things would happen (Consequences such as getting their tongues cut off, or getting stoned to death are some examples). They need a shove, and if push, comes to shove, then I guess it comes to forcefully pushing them if they don’t want to... Hmmm, now they got it made...if they don't keep their mouth shut they get kidnapped and killed...their house blown up...the fact of the matter is - plain and simple - you can't force democracy on some body! And because you don't like their ethics and morals does not make them wrong either. it is true you best not draw attention to yourself in the Iraq of Saddam, but at least the people could walk down the street without getting killed or blown up! This mess of a war blew the foundation out of the country. As in physics, you have a vacuum, it's un-natural, so other things rush to fill the void. There was a horrible oversite by not anticipating it. You can't bomb a country into the stone age and expect that a Hershey bar is gonna bring a smile to every body.
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Post by aangstheone on Dec 10, 2007 21:28:37 GMT -5
The people of Iraq wanted a better government, look at what kind of a leader Saddam Was he hid in the ground, he played Opossum. The best thing to do was to make things better, people always want something better, but in order to get it some sacrifices have to be made. Sacrifices were made and are still being made by our soldiers and the people of Iraq.
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Post by Exorcist on Dec 10, 2007 21:37:50 GMT -5
So? the people of china, burma, cuba, north korea wants a better government. Let's start world war 3.
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Post by Gran Gran on Dec 10, 2007 21:38:21 GMT -5
The people of Iraq wanted a better government, look at what kind of a leader Saddam Was he hid in the ground, he played Opossum. The best thing to do was to make things better, people always want something better, but in order to get it some sacrifices have to be made. Sacrifices were made and are still being made by our soldiers and the people of Iraq. The changes were made by the wrong people for the wrong reasons! Some sacrifices are too great. We have not seen the full extend of the fall out the removal of Saddam has done to the region, especially with no plan in place to replace him. There was a reason Desert Storm 15 years ago stopped where and when it did! Shortsightedness blew the lid of it this go around. Sometimes you have to deal with Belzebub to defeat the devil...here the Belzebub was fed to the devil... I like to liken the invasion to the following: A drunk man is crawling around under a street light. A passerby asks him what he is doing "I am looking for my car keys" 'Oh,' says the passerby 'I help you search, you lost them here?' "No, I lost them over there by my car, but it's so dark there you can't see anything" DUH....all evidence pointed to Afghanistan...but Iraq was picked as target - based on lies and faulty intelligence, as we know now. Fishy, very fishy. Their morals also where not a reason, because if for that, Afghanistan would have been on the invasion radar 20 years ago. (The Russians tried to bring some sort of 'Civilisation' to the Hindukush, but the West opposed the idea and actively supported the same people they are now fighting against!)
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Post by CountessRachel on Dec 11, 2007 0:12:43 GMT -5
The people of Iraq wanted a better government, look at what kind of a leader Saddam Was he hid in the ground, he played Opossum. The best thing to do was to make things better, people always want something better, but in order to get it some sacrifices have to be made. Sacrifices were made and are still being made by our soldiers and the people of Iraq. Though Exorcist touched on it, he's right. There are MUCH worse things happening to people in Africa and Latin America and there are MUCH worse, corrupted leaders running those countries compared to Saddam. I would think that if it were really freeing the people of an oppressed nation, Iraq would be about 59 on our list.
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Post by aangstheone on Dec 11, 2007 22:18:56 GMT -5
Hey If you want to help those other countries so much then should activate the draft again... we cant help every one at the moment, one thing at a time, steady wins the race, It simple, people want to help Iraq and then when we help them people cry and nag that It was the wrong choice, we might as well not help anybody... I think America will get stronger by helping Its sister/brother countries,
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Post by Exorcist on Dec 12, 2007 0:24:38 GMT -5
We're not brother and sister countries with Iraq. Also we're not saying we want to help everybody. Its just that we have better things to do. Also America didn't want to help Iraq, we wanted some kind of revenge for 9/11 and Bush press much of the blame on Iraq. CountessRachel is right. The liberation of Iraq should have came later.
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Post by Gran Gran on Dec 12, 2007 8:37:06 GMT -5
Hey If you want to help those other countries so much then should activate the draft again... we cant help every one at the moment, one thing at a time, steady wins the race, It simple, people want to help Iraq and then when we help them people cry and nag that It was the wrong choice, we might as well not help anybody... I think America will get stronger by helping Its sister/brother countries, Unfortunately there has been nothing of the sort: Iraq has been blown into oblivion. It's most unstable right now and has fueled anti American sentiments in the region and has weakened the US. The stance of 'if you are not with us you are against us' as alienated countries that are otherwise on the US' side, as the European NATO partners. because Bush wants it, they are not going to get the chestnuts out of the fire for him. The whole situation is a mess. When Yugoslavia imploded and all those things went on over there, there was no rush to get in...or other countries around the world...there is nothing th\o reap, but trouble...so the big guys stay away from them. Afghanistan is rugged terrain, not so easy to fight in as it is in Iraq, and no oil... The motives of invading Iraq, a sovereign country with no ties to the events of 9/11 have nothing but not one thing to do with democracy or human rights or whatever... but it did serve nicely to slide a few bills in under the radar that chiseled away on our rights granted to us by the Constitution of the United States of America.
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Post by aangstheone on Dec 16, 2007 22:56:15 GMT -5
We had a reason to go into Iraq, Get Saddam... I don't think we went there to get Oil, we were getting it from there anyways. Afghanistan has allot more in common with terrain in the Mid-Western States of the US The mountains get snow, but the plains get nothing but sun. Why did we help Vietnam, they were struggling. Why did we help Iraq, They were struggling. Vietnam and Iraq have allot in common. Most people hated the War in Vietnam, Most people hate the War in Iraq. Were helping them, let me use Immigration in the 1700’s as an example, Those people wanted a better life because they were struggling. Once they were in the US they struggled to get money, but eventually they made money and built upwards in the economy. Those people had to make sacrifices such as leaving things behind, loosing family members, etc. We are losing our friends, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, and mentors in Iraq all for a better outcome. This is My Opinion… For each thing there is bad and good, thats why I like this song. The day is comin', The drums are drummin', If you know one, say a prayer. There's mothers cryin', And fathers sighin', a-huh, War is in the air. The trains are fillin' up with boys, Who've left behind their favorite toys, They're goin' over there, over there, Where someone has to die. Over there, over there, Where ours is not to reason why. Over there, over there, Where someone has to die. written and performed by Chris Gerolmo OVER THERE 2005 FX
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Post by Exorcist on Dec 16, 2007 23:46:29 GMT -5
Vietnam is different, they were already at civil war and the U.S. offered help to any countries struggling with communism. Iraq wasn't in our way at all, their government cooperated with the U.N inspection and everything was fine. You want to help take down all the corrupt governments but we just can't do that. People need to solve their own problems, thats how life goes.
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