The Blue Chibi
Cabbage Merchant
you cannot push the river... nor can you hold it back
Posts: 4,130
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Post by The Blue Chibi on Sept 26, 2007 12:48:13 GMT -5
This is such an excellent debate, and I have loved reading it. Even though I am of the opinion that Azula, present for narrative purposes, is not likely to follow a redemption path within the given story arc, I cannot quit thinking about all the people I do know in real life who exhibit similar characteristics. I would hope for 'redemption' for them, but is that unfair of me to determine what is "right" for another? Regardless of what happens on a TV show that someone else wrote, I've always wondered how best to respond to someone who is clearly so goal-oriented, so driven. (And I shall refrain from calling it WWUD: What Would Ursa Do?) Y'all please keep up this lively debate, remember to play nicely, and I hope we're all still friends at the end of it all. (Meanwhile, I think I'm going to start a parallel thread on how to interact with the Azula-like people in our own lives, because we love them, and this is RL, not a story.)
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 26, 2007 13:26:10 GMT -5
Well, I've already given my thoughts on this, so to avoid going around in circles, I'll just re-state that I think she will be redeemed, and, no, I don't think it would be a mess-up of the storyline. ~Téa Then you've lost this debate. You have completely failed to provide a single good reason for why and how Azula would be redeemed, while there have been no end of solid arguments for her utter defeat. In a court of law, if your case was simply "I just think I'm right, and I'm sticking to my story", then your case would be tossed out! The judge and jury would find against you, and your client would be found guilty! Unless you can provide a solid argument, or the show suddenly goes a completely different direction than we've been saying it will, this discussion is over. Azula will not be redeemed! You are free to believe whatever you wish, but as far as this debate goes, it's over! -- SpiritBender Well then, it's a good thing my major isn't criminal justice, huh? XD No, this debate is not over, and I haven't lost. Even in a "court of law" it's not over until the jury casts the final vote. So, until season three is over, and we're given solid evidence that she is/was not redeemed, this debate is still up and open for discussion. I have my reasons for believing she'll be redeemed. I simply choose not to share them with you, that's all. And, SpiritBender, knock it off with the hostility. I hold nothing against you for thinking Azula's demon-spawn, so too I expect you won't hold it against me for believing she has a good side. ~Téa
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Melis
Long Feng
hay baby wanna get away on my bison?
Posts: 3,293
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Post by Melis on Sept 26, 2007 13:41:37 GMT -5
But that's thing though. I don't mean to be rude, but how can you convince me otherwise if you don't share your thoughts/ideas/views? Personally, I cannot see her being redeemed because in doing so, it would basically strip away her character. You say she can be redeemed, but...you don't say how or why.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 26, 2007 13:55:48 GMT -5
Good point, lol.
I have shared some of my views already, just not all of them, because I'm tired of arguing this.
~Téa
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Sept 26, 2007 14:06:06 GMT -5
Which is bad...cuz are we not the jury ourselves? And some of us in the end, may vote biased-ly. XD
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Sept 26, 2007 14:22:21 GMT -5
I have shared some of my views already, just not all of them, because I'm tired of arguing this. But can you understand how you're coming across as evasive, Téa? None of us are meaning to accuse you of anything; we merely want to know your opinions on the matter -- which, if we're to take seriously your careful wording, are monumental reasons for Azula's 180° turn in characterization. To say you have reasons that "you don't wish to share", or "take too long to type up"... it makes one wonder why you even chose to enter the debate. Also, I don't recall you listing Azula's "positive" characteristics. This is very important, because sociopaths such as Azula are sorely lacking in that department, and the other side is curious about your views! If you feel with assured certainty that you're right, why not indulge and enlighten us?
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avatar:tla-lover
Meng
candybender ;) Avatar also made by Princess Yue!
Posts: 250
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Post by avatar:tla-lover on Sept 26, 2007 14:34:28 GMT -5
EDIT: Agreed GOZ And grandmastertheo, it's not only SpiritBender here... I respect the thought of kaibasgirl, yet I'm eager to know why and how she feels about this and what her POV is.... I've tried it in the last page, but with no success, nobody likes those points.... (from what I can see -_-'') Maylene, at least didn't like it either (no prob about the whole offended-thing, you have the right to get mad if you feel offended) and I think you didn't as well.... The problem is... those are the only ways I understand how you are thinking kaibasgirl... but I don't know how you're feeling and I can only assume you don't like the ideas/reasons I gave in the last page.... but I'm not sure because you never gave specific reasons for it... so I don't know.... and I'm totally freakin' out here. Because I want to know kaibasgirl.... and I do understand why SpiritBender is getting a bit tired of this... you never gave reasons and I'm not offending you, but I'd like you to share it with us, pretty please. After all, we have to discuss about Azula here..... right? If you still don't want to give any specific reasons kaibasgirl, I'll just give up since I can't force you. It would really mean the end of this thread... which is a shame because I still don't know your POV...... Really, I didn't mean to offend you here, but I'm intrested in you and your thoughts about Azula, see it as a compliment, really. Half of the time I spend on this forum is to meet the members of DH and understand them better, and discuss what we have in common and what not. I hope you'll post an explanation kaibasgirl... and whatever it may be I respect it, even if I might not agree with it. There... I can't stand this anymore, so if this is going in circles forever everytime, I think it should be locked... it's becoming cliché after a while, really...
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 26, 2007 14:43:09 GMT -5
@final Boss or whatever you're going to change your name to next O.o--Ok...how can you possibly, in any way shape or form, in any lifetime, NOT think Azula is a good villain? Please tell me who IS a good villain, in your opinion, and why. Maylene--And those old monarchs sound like bad people. Just like Azula. Now...it's precisely BECAUSE I recognize that Azula is a fictional character that I think redeeming her is a horendous idea that won't ever happen in this dimension. If she was real, then it would not be my place to make such harsh judgements. Real people are capable of change. But there are unspoken bedrock laws in storytelling. For a character, if they pass a certain point then to change them would just be inconsistent writing. It would be confusing and probably irritate the viewers because it leaves many things unresolved. Now I'm going to quote one Mr. Terry Goodkind, who wrote the rules I have on my sig below. You can decide whether it actually relates to this discussion... "...the only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason. The first law of reason is this: what exists, exists, what is, is and from this irreducible bedrock principle, all knowledge is built. It is the foundation from which life is embraced. Thinking is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts nor are they a means to discover them. Reason is our only way of grasping reality; it is our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss that we refuse to see. Faith and feelings are the darkness to reasons light. In rejecting reason, refusing to think, one embraces death." "A contradiction can not exist in reality. Not in part, nor in whole. To believe in a contradiction is to abdicate your belief in the existence of the world around you and the nature of the things in it, to instead embrace any random impulse that strikes your fancy – to imagine something is real simply because you wish it were. A thing is what it is, it is itself. There can be no contradictions. Faith is a device of self-delusion, a sleight of hand done with words and emotions founded on any irrational notion that can be dreamed up. Faith is the attempt to coerce truth to surrender to whim. In simple terms, it is trying to breath life into a lie by trying to outshine reality with the beauty of wishes. Faith is the refuge of fools, the ignorant, and the deluded, not of thinking, rational men. In reality, contradictions cannot exist. To believe in them you must abandon the most important thing you possess: your rational mind. The wager for such a bargain is your life. In such an exchange, you always lose what you have at stake." kai--Yes please...forget our bet. If I win...just send me something that'll make me laugh. That's all I want. Funny picture, funny story, funny joke. If I win I'll still write the fic...even though Sokka is my favorite character and I'd hate to do that to him... If you're going to continue the discussion, please, please tell us WHY. Give us some arguements. You not only say that she could be redeemed, you say that she WILL. And you don't provide any arguements or reasons to back it up. If you want us to take you seriously, please give us soemthing concrete.
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Sept 26, 2007 14:47:53 GMT -5
Is it just me? But I miss that game we were playing about why we like Azula. And maybe, you can correct me Kaibasgirl if I am wrong--please do, she does not share her views because she is afraid her words will be twisted around and be used against her. I don't know...but I wish you did share your views Kaibasgirl. EDIT: yiceman: and yet a lot of people remember Queen Elizabeth I for doing great things. Now I just read the avatar magazine a couple nights ago, and they acknowledge that Azula could switch sides--so why not? (rhetorical question) XD
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 26, 2007 14:56:45 GMT -5
Only twisty words can be twisted. Of course we'll argue, but if your reasons are solid, we won't be able to break them.
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SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
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Post by SpiritBender on Sept 26, 2007 14:57:48 GMT -5
^^This is a debate, so any arguments that people put forth are subject to be picked apart and countered and reinterpreted. I don't mean to come across as hostile, but it is pretty pointless to have a debate if someone doesn't offer a counter-argument. If you make a statement, and have no logical argument/examples to back it up, then that statement doesn't really hold. It's not much of a debate at all! If a good reason was offered for Azula to be redeemed, or why she is the best bender in spite of the fact that she doesn't know how to defend against a skilled waterbender , then I might accept that argument. But if no argument is offered at all, then it's pretty much like saying "I throw in the towel! I'm not fighting!" It's a forfeiture. If somebody doesn't want to debate, then they don't have to, but if you continue to assert a given opinion then it's expected to be supported with argumentation. Otherwise, there's no point in having this discussion at all. Also, I really shouldn't have to say this, but please don't take anything I say personally. I do get passionate about these debates because I love this show and have strong opinions, but there is no need to take anything I (or anyone else) says as a personal attack. -- SpiritBender
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Sept 26, 2007 16:15:51 GMT -5
Grandmaster: You deserve a karma! I watch Naruto once and awhile, and fortunately I watched enough to know what you mean. Never knew Orochimaru used babies...ewww. I'm guessing this was the Third Hokage that let him go?
Angel of Darkness huh? That song sorta fits Azua...lol
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tg
FN Toph
The mysterious lurker of Musogato
Posts: 1,684
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Post by tg on Sept 26, 2007 16:29:38 GMT -5
^ As everyone else said before me, no one is trying to start a real flame war or anything. We're just stating our own opinions in response to your question. Hehe. ^_^ Why don't I consider Azula to be a great villain? The answer is simple, really. It's because of her lack of character. There's nothing there. She doesn't bring anything to the overall plot when she shows up. She's just there; she's just someone for the main characters to fight against. She have no motives for what she's doing; she has no goals that are exclusive to her; and she have no real relationship with Aang, the main protagonist of the show. This isn't Naruto though. This isn't a shonen anime where each character is fleshed out right to the bone with character development that includes the villains. Or another manga/anime example would be that this isn't MAR with some of its characters helping other villains and decide not to become bad guys anymore. This is Avatar. It has only 20 episodes per season as oppose to 24-26 which is very very normal in Japan. Yes, we'll still see some flashbacks of Azula, but I don't think it's going to be exactly what you're thinking of for her. There is a reason why we don't see much about her is because... she is what she is. She isn't a "gray" character and she doesn't have that ability to suddenly go save someone out of some hidden deep secretive compassion in her cold heart. From my side, it doesn't matter if you consider her great or not. The point is.... she is a villain. Doesn't need a past to describe her nature. Ah-no but M&B can give her one if you like. If she was to play double edged sword with her personality, we need a backstory or something very fleshed out in the episodes that'll make her really change her perspective. At this point, that really looks out of character for her.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 26, 2007 22:03:34 GMT -5
I don't follow Naruto, but I've seen a number of episodes, and as tg said, it's a very different show. I saw an episode where two guys are fighting (so much talking in between for like 3 minutes of actual combat!) and it goes all into this minor bad dude's past, building and building up and then bugs block up his hands and his arms explode. I'm not a huge anime fan for this reason. Way, WAY too much exposition. Avatar is more compact. No matter WHO the major villain is, he or she won't get that kind of attention because it's not important to the overall plot and we don't have time. It just isn't necessary. Azula's motives? Did you see the Awakening? She's DEFINITLY planning something, and her motives will become clear enough if they aren't already. Aang vs a robot? Hello...she KILLED HIM! If it isn't personal between them now, I don't know what is. Azula probably terrifies Aang now. Azula single handedly took over Ba Sing Se. She's a great villain, because she's excellent at her role. When she appears on screen against the good guys, we feel genuinly concerned for them. When she's planning something, we KNOW it'll be deadly. What Azula USED to do is irrelevent compared to what she DOES do. And I don't think that anime shows or comic books can really be compared to shows like this for the simple reason that they don't have time restraints. Anime shows and comic books just go on willy-nilly with no real end in sight, so they have no restrictions, to the point where the minorest of minor characters gets a backstory that we didn't need. But in a story like this, where the ending was writtin before the show began, things are different. So name a villain from a book, tv or movie that has a clear ending. That way we can track their entire arc. Here, i'll name one from the book series written by the guy I quoted earlier... Emperor Jagang is a Dreamwalker. What does this mean? It means he has the power to invade your mind. He can seep into your brain with a thought, and gain complete control over you. He could kill you with a thought, or force you to do his bidding. He can track you through your dreams from all corners of the world. He used this to gain himself influence in a land that populates millions, and eventually became their leader. He enforced the ideals that he was born with upon them. He preaches that mankind is an evil, unholy creature. Each person's only purpose is to contribute to the greater good. Often, the greater good calls upon women to allow themselves to be raped so that the soldiers can be happy as they fight. The greater good calls on everyone to live in exactly the same position....near poverty. No man can rise above this (excluding Jagang himself of course and his priests). He is convinced that this life is meant to be lived in utter service and devotion to the Creator. Happiness and self-expression are not needed. Happiness will come in the afterlife, and the afterlife can only be achieved by submitting yourself to their cause. He has a massive army of devoted followers. Basically, at this point in the book series, there is no way at all that the good guys could win by militaristic means. And Jagang himself is way too powerful for anyone to get close to killing him. He's basically taking over the world to spread his beliefs...that mankind is miserable, and should be, and must live in utter devotion (ignorant faith) in order to get into the afterlife. The hero, a man of reason, proclaims that happiness should be achieved for the glorious life we live now, instead of a fantasy afterlife. Jagang terrifies me. The only way to counter his power is to fall under the protection of the protagonist, who can resist it. Anyone else could have their brain tear itself apart in their heads on his whim. He has no concern for life, because he does not believe this life is important. He allows his men to rape and brutalize anyone who resists them. Basically, they make Ozai and the Fire Nation look like used car salesmen. Here, try this...read chapter 17. It is a tough read, but it's supposed to be. This is where the hero is given a firsthand vision of what Jagang's armies do. It's rough, but powerful. LinkNow, how much development did Jagang get? Diddly. We know why he's doing what he's doing...he's blinded by his faith. Do we know what he did as a child? No. Do we need to know? No. He's one of the most brutal and terrifying villains I've read of, and it's because of his actions within the books themselves. ~ ed. link
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SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
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Post by SpiritBender on Sept 26, 2007 22:17:36 GMT -5
Hmm...Azula's motives, Azula's motives, Azula's motives...what on earth could they possibly be...Could it be, maybe, just maybe that Azula wants to... RULE THE FIRE NATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it maybe, just maybe even slightly possible, or am I watching a show completely other than Avatar -- The Last Airbender??? Am I going that far out on a limb??? -- SpiritBender
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