Growly
DOBS Katara
The Jester of Multishipping
The Mod behind the Myth
Posts: 6,059
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Post by Growly on Jun 15, 2007 18:59:24 GMT -5
Also, I have to point out that Zuko's behaviour is almost the antithesis of handling hardships with dignity and grace. When he runs into trouble, he whines and moans or else he gets ticked off and lashes out - regardless of who might be hurt by it. He doesn't use his head and makes stupid decisions, and he belittles the people who actually care about him or are trying to help him. Even later in the show, he tended to avoid attempts at bettering himself and his life unless it was practically forced upon him (his behaviour when he was sick hardly counts). I'd hardly call that dignity and grace in the face of adversion.
I know many people (and fictional characters) that I would consider to have those qualities, and Zuko is nowhere on that list. He spent more time running away from his troubles and denying them - not to mention lying to himself - than he did trying to find some proactive way of handling them. He had to be led by the hand like a young child (figuratively) and at times even be dragged kicking and screaming towards the changes that would make him into a better person. That's not mature and it's definitely not dignified.
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Post by luthien on Jun 15, 2007 19:12:26 GMT -5
Oh no, definitely not, which is why I also sympathize with him, oddly enough. He's such a typical teenager (though I realize "typical" doesn't apply to a lot of teens) - lashing out at those who help him, obstinant to the point of self-destruction, mad at the world. And truthfully, when you see the way he's been treated in the past, and the examples set forth to him of "good" behavior (Azula and Ozai, held up as Fire Nation perfection), you can see why he's so screwed up. I feel he's lashing out at everyone because he's ultimately mad at himself - but of course, he's projecting. It's clear he's angry primarily at Zuko - he does view himself as a failure, a disgrace - a loser, basically. So he's mad at the world.
Not the most mature way to act, mind you, but then again he's only 16, so I will give him a pass. Doesn't mean I don't want to smack him in the head sometimes, though! I've even yelled at the TV sometimes, "Zuko, you idiot! What are you thinking?"
But there are bright spots that shine through, and I appreciate that part of him. The part that decided to abandon chasing Aang twice in favor of the welfare of others. The part that apologized sincerely to his uncle and to Katara. The part that put up patiently with Lee, taught him how to wield the dao instead of yelling at the kid for taking his swords, patched the roof for a poor farming family, and took up for the kid when he was kidnapped. And I admire Zuko for, when the whole town turned against him, simply walking away.
He has lapses in judgement but I don't think he's beyond redemption. And I sincerely want him and Aang to spend more time together, because I feel Aang has a lot to teach him about how to handle his anger and pain the right way. That firebender could do with some airbender philosophies.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Jun 15, 2007 19:16:40 GMT -5
But he IS a child. He was a pampered and sheltered little prince, and then he was banished. I don't think he's grown emotionally since. He doesn't cope well because he doesn't posses the coping skills to do so. I like to think his regret at his decision in the season finale will see him accept the responsibilities of his own actions and deal with his problems in a healthier manner.
Of course, I may be interpreting his character in a way that I want to see him develop...if he doesn't, well, I'll probably lose interest in the series entirely...after all, I already am...
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 15, 2007 19:29:59 GMT -5
But there are bright spots that shine through, and I appreciate that part of him. The part that decided to abandon chasing Aang twice in favor of the welfare of others. The part that apologized sincerely to his uncle and to Katara. The part that put up patiently with Lee, taught him how to wield the dao instead of yelling at the kid for taking his swords, patched the roof for a poor farming family, and took up for the kid when he was kidnapped. And I admire Zuko for, when the whole town turned against him, simply walking away. And trying to save Zhao, who had tried to murder him.
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Post by mahatista on Jun 15, 2007 20:54:01 GMT -5
I think the times that Zuko has shown kindness or honor are the things that hook people -- mainly the girls. Most women are rescuers which is why you often see nice girls with jerky guys. Zuko seems saveable whereas Zhao did not. How many people like Zuko more than Haru? Haru was gorgeous, but he was nothin' but nice. Gone. Forgotten. Not interested. But Zuko shows a vulnerable moment, like when Zhao is berating him in episode 3 (also shows a buff body) and the girls go wild. The Storm clenched it. He's just a poor lost lamb who is lashing out. At least that's the way people see it.
Zuko's fans are mainly girls because he seems to need a good woman. Which is also why Zuko fans are also usually Zutarians rather than Maikoians.
When he hooks up with Mai (which I firmly believe he will) it's possible that he will lose many fans and Aang will take the lead again.
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Post by luthien on Jun 15, 2007 21:03:43 GMT -5
Well, that may be the case for most Zuko fans, but not this one. I want him redeemed by only one person, the person that matters most - himself. Otherwise his redemption is nothing. The only person who needs to save him is himself, which is what I hope happens.
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Post by demonofthewest on Jun 15, 2007 22:03:16 GMT -5
Also, I have to point out that Zuko's behaviour is almost the antithesis of handling hardships with dignity and grace. When he runs into trouble, he whines and moans or else he gets ticked off and lashes out - regardless of who might be hurt by it. He doesn't use his head and makes stupid decisions, and he belittles the people who actually care about him or are trying to help him. Even later in the show, he tended to avoid attempts at bettering himself and his life unless it was practically forced upon him (his behaviour when he was sick hardly counts). I'd hardly call that dignity and grace in the face of adversion. I know many people (and fictional characters) that I would consider to have those qualities, and Zuko is nowhere on that list. He spent more time running away from his troubles and denying them - not to mention lying to himself - than he did trying to find some proactive way of handling them. He had to be led by the hand like a young child (figuratively) and at times even be dragged kicking and screaming towards the changes that would make him into a better person. That's not mature and it's definitely not dignified. I don't recall him ever being dragged kicking and screaming. Iroh's yelled at him once during the entire series, and it's not as if he threatened to burn him alive if he chose unwisely. One thing that's been stressed in the series is that Iroh lets Zuko makes his own decisions, even if they're not smart. Zuko belittles people who care about him? One person cares about him. Iroh. And yes, he has belittled Iroh before. But he's also rescued him from danger when he had the chance to go after the Avatar. It's clear that Zuko does love his uncle and respect him, even if he does act childishly at times. Zuko does act angrily when things don't go his way. Of course, every firebender we've seen has acted selfishly and angrily, excluding Iroh. The firebenders are a very passionate and dramatic race. Iroh, because he is enlightened, doesn't feel the same way they do. And Zuko has not been "running away" from his problems. His entire development in Season 2 was a journey of self discovery. He tried to find out who he is, rather than hide in a hole and mope. Yes, his development took a step backwards, but I have faith he'll recover.
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Post by mahatista on Jun 16, 2007 1:25:30 GMT -5
Well, that may be the case for most Zuko fans, but not this one. I want him redeemed by only one person, the person that matters most - himself. Otherwise his redemption is nothing. The only person who needs to save him is himself, which is what I hope happens. I agree. But that doesn't mean he can't be helped by a good woman. But you're right, it won't mean anything if he doesn't have his own epiphany. There are all kinds of theories where he realizes Azula's using him or he finally gets Aang and still doesn't get his honour back and that's what changes him, but I don't like those ideas much. He has to come to the realization rather than have it be based on a disappointment or to please someone else. However I do think that Zuko is so popular because girls go for guys who need saving. Aang's covered, Zuko's not. I think Zuko fans are Zutarians because they feel like she'd be good for him. I think they're extremely anti-Maiko because she clearly won't be good for him unless she has a major change of heart herself. It won't be satisfying at all though if he doesn't come around to the right side because it's right and nothing more.
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Post by luthien on Jun 16, 2007 3:56:56 GMT -5
That's true - it won't be satisfying if he converts to the "good" side because he has no other choice. Ultimately I'm hoping it's a situation where Zuko does indeed get all he wants - then realizes that it's not a satisfying life for him, and that what he's been chasing all this time is just the ghost of a past that was never really that great to begin with.
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aracia93
Zuko
Obsession calms the soul~
Posts: 111
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Post by aracia93 on Jun 16, 2007 7:47:57 GMT -5
well, i'm a Zuko fangirl (and proud of it) but i don't think zuko could have been the ONLY hero, i like him for the role he is. Aang is still suitable for the leading role. He's the Avatar, the show is "AVATAR: The last AIRBENDER". sorry, i don't mean to hurt people, but i still think Aang is the suitable leading role. Zuko is still my fave BUT i think he should just play the role he was assigned to. He's doing a Bang Up job with it too
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 16, 2007 8:23:58 GMT -5
Well, that may be the case for most Zuko fans, but not this one. I want him redeemed by only one person, the person that matters most - himself. Otherwise his redemption is nothing. The only person who needs to save him is himself, which is what I hope happens. I agree. But that doesn't mean he can't be helped by a good woman. But you're right, it won't mean anything if he doesn't have his own epiphany. There are all kinds of theories where he realizes Azula's using him or he finally gets Aang and still doesn't get his honour back and that's what changes him, but I don't like those ideas much. He has to come to the realization rather than have it be based on a disappointment or to please someone else. However I do think that Zuko is so popular because girls go for guys who need saving. Aang's covered, Zuko's not. I think Zuko fans are Zutarians because they feel like she'd be good for him. I think they're extremely anti-Maiko because she clearly won't be good for him unless she has a major change of heart herself. It won't be satisfying at all though if he doesn't come around to the right side because it's right and nothing more. Not all Zuko fans are Zutarians. I'm not. I don't really like Katara very much, and if Aang wants her he can have her I didn't like Mai much at first, but she's grown on me. I think the Maiko ship will turn out alright, because Mai won't try to change Zuko, she already likes him as he is. If that pisses some people off that they'll stop being Zuko fans so be it. While I do kind of like the idea of Zuko capturing Aang and presenting him to Ozai, and still not getting his honor restored, I also like the idea of him getting his honor and everything he thought he wanted so he can stop obsessing about it. Because it seems Zuko's good side comes out when he's not obsessing about the avatar and his honor. If he is allowed back home, gets some acceptance from Ozai (however grudgingly) and gets his honor and birthright back, he may start thinking and listening to his conscience and that would start him on his redemption. Perhaps.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Jun 16, 2007 8:47:00 GMT -5
Indeed...Zuko fangirl does not equal Zutarian...and even though I am strongly anti-Maiko its becoming reality won't stop me being a Zuko fangirl...it might lessen my enjoyment of the show, but so have other things...so long as we get to see more of Zuko Alone Zuko I'll be fairly happy...
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Post by Kosuke on Jun 16, 2007 9:35:32 GMT -5
Indeed...Zuko fangirl does not equal Zutarian...and even though I am strongly anti-Maiko its becoming reality won't stop me being a Zuko fangirl...it might lessen my enjoyment of the show, but so have other things...so long as we get to see more of Zuko Alone Zuko I'll be fairly happy... I believe Zuko fangirls doesn't equal Zutarian, nor Maiko, nor any type of relationship that involves the banished prince, even while knowing Maiko can be the real deal. Or sort of. And yeah, I agree with you. More of "Zuko Alone" and I'll be happy too. Okay, back to reality. Maybe it's because fire indeed is a dramatic element? I think the creators chose the best characteristics for the Fire Nation citizens, because it fits perfectly with what fire actually is. (With "dramatic" I mean that it can take "life" and destroy whatever its on its way with a simple way it frightens, that gets enpowered with air, earth can feed it and water "kills" it, and so on.) Zuko's not an exception, but what's different with Zuko is that he sometimes shows kindess and compasion. And sometimes he acts by impulse, but come on, which teenager hasn't? (No, really!) At 16 an average teenager doesn't show mature signs yet, or I mean most of them. But he's a teenager. Let's leave it pass.
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Post by mahatista on Jun 16, 2007 15:02:44 GMT -5
I have to disagree about most Zuko fans being girls. I would think he'd just be kind of annoying to guys.
But I do think it's an interesting phenomenon that the anti-hero usually ends up stealing any show. Look at Pirates of the Carribean. I think originally Jack Sparrow was clearly an anti-hero and Will Turner was a classic hero. But who ended up being the romantic focus for so many ladies? Smelly, bizarre Jack.
Are straight ahead heroes boring? I don't know. I hope not.
Kasuke - who's the third troubled guy in your sig? I recognize Zuko and Sasuke, but who's the third?
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Post by demonofthewest on Jun 16, 2007 17:12:34 GMT -5
The 3rd guy is Heero Yuy of Gundam Wing fame. BTW, nice sig, kosuke. Sasuke isn't my cup of tea, but Zuko and Heero side by side is just too cool.
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