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Post by Revitalize Book on Jul 31, 2006 23:22:12 GMT -5
Awright! xD Maybe we can add more of these to the front page when we're all done. =)
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Post by sapphirestar on Aug 1, 2006 1:51:01 GMT -5
Yes, very good benefits. I agree that Song doesn't think that all Fire Nation people are bad; she realizes that anyone can be corrupted by too much power so therefore she's accepting, understanding, willing to help, and not very judgmental. She knows that people can't help what family/life/circumstances they're born into (but hopes they will make the best of it) and that most Fire Nation children are raised with the belief that the war is right and justified, as was the case with Zuko, but now he is seeing and experiencing first hand another side of the war: the impoverished, innocent peoples' of the rest of the world. He's finally realizing just how much of a negative effect his nation's war is having on these kind and humble people and that he's not the only person who's been negatively affected by it. He's struggling now with what he was taught to believe is good and right including what he wants for himself, and what he's beginning to see as wrong and unjust which is exactly what he originally thought was perfectly fine. Song would understand this and aid him in his journey of discovering the truth, giving him hope and would eventually help him see that it's his responsibility as heir to the Fire Nation to help the Avatar bring peace once again; and once peace has been reached, he can then rule the Fire Nation in harmony with the rest of the world, which is better than having a constant war to always worry about and having few friends whom he can trust. Song seems to be pretty much at peace with herself and with those who caused her pain ("It's okay...they've hurt me too."), so I think she'd be very patient with Zuko in helping him find his way to the "right path", so to speak, and in accepting who he is, what's happened to him, and help him move on to better times. Once he's past his turmoil and has found peace (which will probably take a long while), it will bring Song much joy. She can give Zuko hope and peace and he in turn can give her happiness because he will have finally found happiness.
Okay. I'm done. I don't want to mull this over anymore, hehe.
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Aug 1, 2006 13:23:50 GMT -5
well, I was looking more for how Song would benefit, so I'll throw this in the pot.
She'll get character development. XD That's what we need to see of her more than anything before something happens. Frankly, I'd love to see her develop more without Zuko, but realistically speaking, I doubt this will happen. But I do think it's important that Song be an influence on him in the future, as I think Zutara is not believable and Maiko first off seems like it'd detriment Zuko's sway over to the good side as of right now.
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femaleairbender
Blue Spirit
Just a fool to believe I have anything she needs...She's like the wind...
Posts: 2,165
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Post by femaleairbender on Aug 1, 2006 13:52:38 GMT -5
That's true, inuyatta. I also agree with the Zutara and Maiko thing. Mai seems way too loyal to the bad side.
Also, I really don't think Mai's feelings for Zuko are more than just a crush. Personally, if I loved someone with all of my heart, I would NOT want to capture that person and their uncle. Obviously, Mai doesn't feel the same way.
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Post by sapphirestar on Aug 2, 2006 3:01:21 GMT -5
I too agree. Zuko has never seemed to show any interest in Mai and she just had a childhood crush on him.
Anyway, how Song in particular can benefit from being with Zuko? Well, I would like to see her develop more without Zuko as well, although yeah, that most likely won't happen. But I think she'd grow stronger as a person in the sense that she'd be with/helping the prince of the very nation that took her father away, so she'd have to grow and put that aside and realize (as I think she already does in some ways) that not all Fire Nation people are like the ones who took her father. Also, her life would definitely get spiced up since she'd be traveling the world so she'd get more cultured. She might also become firmer in a way by not letting people (including Zuko) step all over her and take advantage of her when she shows them kindness and generosity. I dunno....
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femaleairbender
Blue Spirit
Just a fool to believe I have anything she needs...She's like the wind...
Posts: 2,165
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Post by femaleairbender on Aug 2, 2006 12:57:21 GMT -5
I agree!
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daydream11
penguin
"I love you, Bolin! AHHHHH!!!"
Posts: 2
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Post by daydream11 on Aug 2, 2006 15:06:43 GMT -5
Man, I love you guys. Excellent points Sapphire and Inuyatta and FAB (haham that's actually a word). I agree with them.
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Post by gambitia on Aug 2, 2006 22:37:24 GMT -5
Don't die, War Room!
I need to make more Soko icons...I think I'll get on that now. There are too few good caps to work with though...so I need to go cap more.
EDIT: So, I now have 550 new shiny Song and/or Zuko screencaps from CoTL. Yay! But now I have to go to bed...
But I was wondering...what do you think Song and Zuko talked about after she showed him her scar? Did they sit in silence? Did they make small talk? I personally think they got into an argument about hope, because Song said "I know you don't think there's any hope left" later, and she has a peeved expression in the caps when Iroh and Zuko are leaving, and Zuko seems pissy (but then, he's always pissy)...
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Millie
Jet
Maiko and Kataang flag-waver, Captain of the Tokka Troops
Posts: 383
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Post by Millie on Aug 3, 2006 2:51:55 GMT -5
I'm not going to try to get into an argument here. But since people can very well get into the Maiko thread and comment on my arguments against ZukoxSong, then I can very well get into this thread and comment on the arguments against Maiko. Fair enough? I'm not even going to post my thousand and one arguments against ZukoxSong, because this camp and the Maiko camp have a very amicable relationship,and actually have common members.
Regarding Mai being too loyal to the 'bad side' and Maiko becoming detrimental to Zuko's 'goodness', a fair amount of people think the opposite: that Maiko might be one of the factors for Mai [and as a consequence, Ty Lee] to betray Azula. I am actually not a big fan of that idea, but I have to agree with the point of that argument: Mai and Ty Lee don't have a lot of loyalty to Azula. Some viewers think that only Ty Lee would hold some resentment for Azula, but I am one of those who argue that is probably not the case. The most obvious clue to this is how Azula [and Ty Lee] ganged up against Mai as a child. [It is also notable that when they ganged up against Mai, she was rescued by none other than Zuko. Foreshadowing? Very possible.]
Also, that whole scene with Mai 'forsaking' her little brother upon Azula's command could stand for several things, one of them being an illustration of the power play within their group. Azula is obviously not above testing her subordinates' loyalty, or exercising the full extent of her powers [as shown with her treatment of Mai's father]. Mai isn't necessarily evil, she's a girl who was in a difficult situation and reacted in a way that most consider strange/unfeeling.
But consider this: Mai isn't an ignorant country girl who would clearly show her emotions on her face, she was brought up in an imperial court--and two of the most essential things one needs to survive in court is the ability to hide behind a mask and employ doublespeak. Don't be expecting her to proclaim her resentment against Azula and her love for Zuko,because that's just going to get her killed. I'm not saying she'll definitely betray Azula but this is a case wherein we have to wait and see what she will do in the end.
And please note that Mai volunteered to join Azula without knowing what the mission entailed. And then, having given her word to Azula, she would have to go with her--whether she wanted to do such a mission, or not.
Mai and Ty Lee have also been separated from Azula in her critical 'evil moment': attacking Iroh in "The Chase". This puts us in the dark as to whether or not they would have betrayed Azula [despite the obvious consequences they would suffer if they do betray her] after she has committed such an act. I have also seen it mentioned by a number of very observant and intelligent fans that one of the main themes of the episode is coming to ones' allies' aid. Katara,Sokka and Toph came for Aang, Iroh came for Zuko--who came for Azula? Not Mai and Ty Lee. Foreshadowing? Could be.
Additionally, if Mai's feelings for Zuko are merely a childhood crush [therefore, transient],then what is the point of showing said feelings? Mai is a secondary character, there would be no point in showing her feelings [let alone, mutable ones] if they weren't to be of some importance to the plot and/or a main character. While this is a reality of life, it's just not done in fiction, wherein intratextual harmony and unity is of the essence. Which makes it more likely that her feelings persist.
As for Zuko thinking of Mai only as a girl who had a crush on him,I would say this: The more telling point is not that Mai was shown only in one scene, but that she was shown in a scene at all. In one of Zuko's memories no less. I have already discussed in the Maiko thread that Zuko keeps so much of himself, that even the most important things about him [the Agni Kai,his inferiority to Azula, his mother] are revealed bit-by-bit.So disregarding the possibility that Mai might be something more to Zuko just because he hasn't 'said anything about it' is very unwise considering the nature of his character.
And after everything I've said, the most important thing that needs to be said is the shortest and very canon: Mai is the only character who has ever shown a romantic interest in Zuko.
Thank you for your time.
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Post by sapphirestar on Aug 3, 2006 4:38:11 GMT -5
I'm not going to try to get into an argument here. But since people can very well get into the Maiko thread and comment on my arguments against ZukoxSong, then I can very well get into this thread and comment on the arguments against Maiko. Fair enough? I'm not even going to post my thousand and one arguments against ZukoxSong, because this camp and the Maiko camp have a very amicable relationship,and actually have common members. Regarding Mai being too loyal to the 'bad side' and Maiko becoming detrimental to Zuko's 'goodness', a fair amount of people think the opposite: that Maiko might be one of the factors for Mai [and as a consequence, Ty Lee] to betray Azula. I am actually not a big fan of that idea, but I have to agree with the point of that argument: Mai and Ty Lee don't have a lot of loyalty to Azula. Some viewers think that only Ty Lee would hold some resentment for Azula, but I am one of those who argue that is probably not the case. The most obvious clue to this is how Azula [and Ty Lee] ganged up against Mai as a child. [It is also notable that when they ganged up against Mai, she was rescued by none other than Zuko. Foreshadowing? Very possible.] Also, that whole scene with Mai 'forsaking' her little brother upon Azula's command could stand for several things, one of them being an illustration of the power play within their group. Azula is obviously not above testing her subordinates' loyalty, or exercising the full extent of her powers [as shown with her treatment of Mai's father]. Mai isn't necessarily evil, she's a girl who was in a difficult situation and reacted in a way that most consider strange/unfeeling. But consider this: Mai isn't an ignorant country girl who would clearly show her emotions on her face, she was brought up in an imperial court--and two of the most essential things one needs to survive in court is the ability to hide behind a mask and employ doublespeak. Don't be expecting her to proclaim her resentment against Azula and her love for Zuko,because that's just going to get her killed. I'm not saying she'll definitely betray Azula but this is a case wherein we have to wait and see what she will do in the end. And please note that Mai volunteered to join Azula without knowing what the mission entailed. And then, having given her word to Azula, she would have to go with her--whether she wanted to do such a mission, or not. Mai and Ty Lee have also been separated from Azula in her critical 'evil moment': attacking Iroh in "The Chase". This puts us in the dark as to whether or not they would have betrayed Azula [despite the obvious consequences they would suffer if they do betray her] after she has committed such an act. I have also seen it mentioned by a number of very observant and intelligent fans that one of the main themes of the episode is coming to ones' allies' aid. Katara,Sokka and Toph came for Aang, Iroh came for Zuko--who came for Azula? Not Mai and Ty Lee. Foreshadowing? Could be. Additionally, if Mai's feelings for Zuko are merely a childhood crush [therefore, transient],then what is the point of showing said feelings? Mai is a secondary character, there would be no point in showing her feelings [let alone, mutable ones] if they weren't to be of some importance to the plot and/or a main character. While this is a reality of life, it's just not done in fiction, wherein intratextual harmony and unity is of the essence. Which makes it more likely that her feelings persist. As for Zuko thinking of Mai only as a girl who had a crush on him,I would say this: The more telling point is not that Mai was shown only in one scene, but that she was shown in a scene at all. In one of Zuko's memories no less. I have already discussed in the Maiko thread that Zuko keeps so much of himself, that even the most important things about him [the Agni Kai,his inferiority to Azula, his mother] are revealed bit-by-bit.So disregarding the possibility that Mai might be something more to Zuko just because he hasn't 'said anything about it' is very unwise considering the nature of his character. And after everything I've said, the most important thing that needs to be said is the shortest and very canon: Mai is the only character who has ever shown a romantic interest in Zuko. Thank you for your time. Wow...thanks for sharing that, I appreciate it. It was eye-opening because I never cared to give a thought to the deep complexities of Mai and her life and/or Maiko because quite honestly, I don't care too much for Mai (although she does kick butt) and I don't ship Maiko. You gave me a whole new perspective though. I suppose I don't view Mai as quite so heartless anymore. On Mai and Ty Lee possibly betraying and leaving Azula, I can really only see Ty Lee doing so, at least from what we've seen so far. Even if Mai turns out to be not very loyal to Azula and holds resentment, she still seems to be extremely loyal to the Fire Nation and betraying Azula would mean betraying the Fire Nation. Also, Mai seems to have absolutely no problem with killing people, as she definitely tried to kill Katara with her weaponry in order to help Azula get what the Fire Nation needed. As for Zuko 'saving' Mai when Azula and Ty Lee ganged up on her, I suppose that yes, that could be foreshadowing, but again, Mai seems way too loyal to her nation to do anything that would contradict what Azula wants in order for Zuko to do any saving. As for the part in The Chase when neither Ty Lee nor Mai came to aid Azula, you make a valid point, but Sokka and Katara had Appa to travel on in order to make it to Aang quickly, Toph and Iroh had already been pretty close to where Aang and Zuko were (since Zuko was already at the abandoned town and Iroh was close behind tracking him), but Mai and Ty Lee weren't and their lizard things seemed to have disappeared (correct me if they were still with them), so maybe they just couldn't reach Azula in time even if they tried. I understand your point about how Mai's feelings for Zuko might not be just a childhood crush; I just always percieved the part in Return to Omashu when Ty Lee said "It'll be interesting seeing Zuko again, won't it Mai?" and Mai gave a small smirk, as her just reminiscing about how she once liked Zuko. I like what you said about Zuko's flashback with Mai, Azula, and Ty Lee as well (although I don't understand how he could have known that Mai blushed under that tree when he walked by not even looking in that direction, haha), but I think he would have tried to knock a burning apple off of anyone's head, not just Mai's because deep down he has compassion. I also felt that that flashback was more to show Azula's cruelty and manipulation towards her best friends (showing that if she's willing to be that mean and inconsiderate to her own friends, there's no telling the cruelty she'll be willing to inflict on those whom she doesn't consider 'friends') and Zuko and how he doesn't fit in and how Azula always has the upper hand and loves to make him look like a fool, but you do make a good point; Zuko does keep his thoughts and important memories very much to himself. Yes, the romantic interest Mai showed in Zuko is canon, yet I think Song's friendly feelings right now towards Zuko could grow into something more. She is afterall very intrigued by his mystery and wants to get to know him more and to me she is a person whom he can trust and find peace in because of her patient, caring, understanding, helpful, and accepting nature. Thanks again. You get karma. ;D
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Post by sapphirestar on Aug 3, 2006 4:48:06 GMT -5
Sorry for the double post. Don't die, War Room! I need to make more Soko icons...I think I'll get on that now. There are too few good caps to work with though...so I need to go cap more. EDIT: So, I now have 550 new shiny Song and/or Zuko screencaps from CoTL. Yay! But now I have to go to bed... But I was wondering...what do you think Song and Zuko talked about after she showed him her scar? Did they sit in silence? Did they make small talk? I personally think they got into an argument about hope, because Song said "I know you don't think there's any hope left" later, and she has a peeved expression in the caps when Iroh and Zuko are leaving, and Zuko seems pissy (but then, he's always pissy)... Hmmm...I always kind of thought that Zuko quickly wiped his look of shock and concern off his face after seeing Song's scar and that they just sat in silence for a little while since Zuko is not much of a talker, especially with people he doesn't know. Either that or I agree that Song could have just talked to him a bit about hope, never giving up, fighting for what's right even though it's hard, that she doesn't think all Fire Nation people are bad, etc. But I don't really think he spoke to her; rather he just held his emotions in like always and put a cold, serious look on his face. Song could have then taken his silence, coldness, and seemingly indifference as meaning that he'd pretty much already given up on hope (which is true in many ways) and so that's why she later made the "I know you don't think there's any hope left" comment. And yeah, Zuko is pretty much always pissy and he kinda was then too because hope for him used to be in the Avatar's capture, not return, and now he's trying to come to terms with the fact that capturing the Avatar won't help him anymore. Basically, he's got a lot of self-discovery and growing to do before he can have true hope again, but by then he'll hopefully have decided to do what's right and then his hope can lie in helping the Avatar defeat his father to restore peace and then he can rule the Fire Nation in peace. Right now I don't think he's given up all hope though; he is a fighter after all. Meh, I'm tired.
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femaleairbender
Blue Spirit
Just a fool to believe I have anything she needs...She's like the wind...
Posts: 2,165
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Post by femaleairbender on Aug 3, 2006 10:00:31 GMT -5
Excellent points, guys! I liked your defense of your ship, Millie. But what really stood out to me was Mai hiding her feelings because she was brought up in a court. That was interesting. I always thought Mai got accustomed to keeping her feelings a secret due to her training as an assassin (or is she a ninja?).
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Post by gambitia on Aug 3, 2006 12:20:27 GMT -5
What arguements? Feel free to share, it (a) keeps the SWR on the top of the page, (b) is wicked fun to debate, and (c) teaches people about other perspectives.
Nice rant. I'm still waiting for Mai and Zuko to interact to start either shipping/not shipping Maiko. I like it in theory...but it just doesn't quite have that emotional pull that I like in ships. They need to encounter each other...
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Post by ~|EarthbenderM|~ on Aug 3, 2006 12:49:10 GMT -5
This is my back-up ship, actully.
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Aug 3, 2006 14:48:04 GMT -5
Millie, you made a nice long post, with a lot of good theories--but again, like most of our Zuko/Song arguments--most of them are only speculation. However, at the moment, I think we (as in SoKo) shippers feel that there's a bit of hope for this ship based on what we've seen of the characters and their interactions thus far.
I think it's fair of me to say that based on what I've seen of Mai so far (without making too many speculations, because remember, this is mainly a kid's show, they're probably not gonna make everyone think really really hard on someone who is not a main character)--that she's not going to turn from Azula anytime soon, and that regardless of whether or not her feelings for Zuko are genuine, she's still aware of what the mission is now, and that is to hunt. Them. Down. And since we weren't shown any sign of hesitation from Mai...there's really not much there to defend Maiko at this point. Note I say 'at this point'.
Just in case you get all in a tizzy (there were arguments against SoKo? Srsly? *gasp* ;D)--I'm not dead-set against Maiko, but like with any Zuko ship, I need to see more development and interaction first before I make an opinion on it. As it is right now, just based on what we've seen, SoKo wins by default because there was actual interaction in the present time. Maiko has yet to show me anything, so I'll have to wait and see. Fair? ;D Nobody's bashing Maiko in here, so if you're prone to getting upset at the sight of opposition, don't worry--we're not gonna spork you. <3
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