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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 14, 2008 17:59:51 GMT -5
I felt that wasn't what she should have been angry at him for. He betrayed her, and she made it clear at the beginning of the episode that it really upset her. In the crystal catacombs, I feel she was directing her anger about her mother at Zuko, but she let go of that after he said he lost his mother as well. She forgave him, as she said in TSR, and he betrayed her. I was really confused when they made the episode about her anger at Zuko being misdirected because of her mother's death. It seemed out of place and Katara was acting very out-of-character. If she was bitter toward him because of his betrayal in Ba Sing Se, which it seemed at the beginning and from her mentioning his betrayal in WAT as well, it would have made sense. That's why I didn't like it.
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Aug 15, 2008 0:01:11 GMT -5
I think some people bring some pre-established "rules" of how relationships should be written ("Opposites attract," so Fire and Water MUST go together) to the table; the same thing caused the Harry/Hermione shippers to get their hopes up (because they thought "The hero and the female friend of his trio MUST fall in love"). But if there's one thing Avatar's good at, it's breaking all the rules. I don't know... "The hero and the female friend of the trio MUST fall in love" sounds suspiciously familiar to Kataang... I don't ship Zutara just because it's a fire/water pairing, or because Katara was the "only option." Trust me, I don't stick to "the rules" when I'm shipping. Hence the Mai/Zhao icon. Even from their first interactions early on in season 1, I saw something between them that was just more interesting to me than the other ships.
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jillrg
Avatar Korra
By Fialleril at LJ
Posts: 1,067
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Post by jillrg on Aug 15, 2008 7:58:34 GMT -5
^ J.K. Rowling broke that rule; that didn't stop shippers from thinking the mistake was hers and not theirs. Avatar broke the arbitrary "opposites of fire and water go together" assumption of their shippers. Arbitrary because there were never any hints of it whatsoever. For a list of non-shipping related rules Avatar has broken, I once wrote this fic: www.fanfiction.net/s/3270308/1/Lets_Break_Some_Rules
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Post by ZamKenobi on Aug 15, 2008 9:15:15 GMT -5
^ Avatar broke the arbitrary "opposites of fire and water go together" assumption of their shippers. Arbitrary because there were never any hints of it whatsoever. But the thing is I've never seen it as a rule like "hero/heroine" but more of a preference. There are couples in canon like Zutara, but those opposites attract couples aren't nearly prominent enough to make them a rule. I've never seen anyone argue that as a rule for why a pairing should become canon (in fandoms other than Avatar, I haven't looked for arguments among Zutara fans on why it would be canon because I didn't really care). I've just seen it as an argument for why they like the pairing or why they think it would work.
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Post by nymphadora on Aug 15, 2008 10:10:00 GMT -5
I don't know why you're calling it a rule, but the "hero/heroine" getting together is more of a "rule" than the "opposites attract" rule.
I wouldn't call Maiko "opposites attract" either. They are definitely different, but not opposites. The example you gave jill is a bit of a difference in them, but they're not total opposites.
And I know this isn't really on topic, but in Harry Potter I think JKR completely "followed the rules." Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Ginny are the main characters in the younger group and they end up paired up. She paired them the only way she could without insect or slash.
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jillrg
Avatar Korra
By Fialleril at LJ
Posts: 1,067
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Post by jillrg on Aug 15, 2008 10:43:20 GMT -5
I don't know why rabid-symbolism-is-everywhere!Zutarians think it's a rule, either.
"Insect"?
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Post by nymphadora on Aug 15, 2008 11:37:01 GMT -5
You know I meant incest. There is symbolism for Zutara in the show but a lot of the times we're kidding. If anyone's like "OMG that guy's wearing a red shirt and he's in the blue water so Zutara must happen!!! " then it's a joke. A lot of stuff could stand for Zutara but that doesn't mean we always think that that is a reason why Zutara could become canon. And what rule are you talking about?
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jillrg
Avatar Korra
By Fialleril at LJ
Posts: 1,067
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Post by jillrg on Aug 15, 2008 11:58:54 GMT -5
Sorry - I thought it was some web lingo like "slash." There is symbolism for Zutara in the show but a lot of the times we're kidding. If anyone's like "OMG that guy's wearing a red shirt and he's in the blue water so Zutara must happen!!! " then it's a joke. Oh. Not the ones I've encountered. Are the makers of "Zutara Evidence for the Intellectual Dummy" joking, too?
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Post by nymphadora on Aug 15, 2008 12:22:03 GMT -5
I've actually never seen those videos...I'll go watch one now though. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'll admit that there has not been too much Zutara evidence. Things like The Waterbending Scroll are great Zutara episodes, but not neccessarily romantic. That type of episode made me into a Zutara shipper and I loved it, but did not scream CANON STEAM BABIES!ZUTARA to me, though I would have liked it to. The Zutara evidence that we've got, like in the finale, is showing more of a bond between the two in my opinion. I don't really ship Zutara based on canon evidence anways. Here and there there are Zutara moments, but they're obviously not a main thing on the show. I ship Zutara on a gut feeling. It just felt right to me and I love Zutara. Even without canon I will always like it SO much more than Kataang and Maiko. EDIT: Were those Zutara Evidence Lessons taken off youtube?
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
Posts: 5,061
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Post by Ana on Aug 15, 2008 13:24:25 GMT -5
I felt that wasn't what she should have been angry at him for. He betrayed her, and she made it clear at the beginning of the episode that it really upset her. In the crystal catacombs, I feel she was directing her anger about her mother at Zuko, but she let go of that after he said he lost his mother as well. She forgave him, as she said in TSR, and he betrayed her. I was really confused when they made the episode about her anger at Zuko being misdirected because of her mother's death. It seemed out of place and Katara was acting very out-of-character. Oh, well, disliking the reason for her anger is different than not getting it. Again, I thought the episode got the point across very clearly. Before the catacombs, Katara just saw Zuko as an enemy rather than a person. After they bonded over their mothers, that opinion changed but right after that Zuko spit on that bonding with his betrayal. That betrayal did hurt Katara but obviously the fact she shared an important part of herself with him and Zuko couldn’t care less hurt her more. I also disagree with your opinion that Katara was acting out-of-character. Katara has been to known to hold a grudge and have a black-and-white morality. Bryke seriously blew everyone away with their whole "hero/heroine" thing. I know, right? Kataang has a ton of stuff that you don’t usually find in main hero/main heroine. She is older, taller and less naive. He is the chosen one, but she is the one who protects him. His knight in shining armor. I wouldn't call Maiko "opposites attract" either. They are definitely different, but not opposites. I kind of agree. Mai and Zuko are different but they aren’t opposites as they have a lot of similarities too. But I can see why people would think of Maiko as "opposites attract". Their differences balance each other out (Zuko stops Mai from feeling too little and Mai stops Zuko from feelings too much) and that’s how those types of couples usually work. As for shipping "rules", I wouldn’t say there are any. Stuff like "enemies in love" may happen a lot but that just means they’re cliche's. Every pairing, I think, can fit into and break some type of cliche' so I don’t think about them when I decide what to ship.
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Post by ZamKenobi on Aug 15, 2008 13:45:25 GMT -5
EDIT: Were those Zutara Evidence Lessons taken off youtube? Yes, they're here now. I agree, I think a lot of Zutarian symbolism is jokes. I haven't watched them in a while, but honestly, they're farfetched, but I wouldn't go as far to say they're crazy. Just a bit of over-analyzing. It kind of bothers me when people label fans rabid because of things like this. I know that's not what jill said, but I've seen people point to the maker of these videos as crazy and rabid and it just isn't true. She's just a little overly enthusiastic. It's not like these things hurt anyone. As for shipping "rules", I wouldn’t say there are any. Stuff like "enemies in love" may happen a lot but that just means they’re cliche's. Every pairing, I think, can fit into and break some type of cliche' so I don’t think about them when I decide what to ship. I agree with this. Just because something happens more often than others doesn't mean it can be used as proof that it will happen in this scenario or others. Kataang was obvious from pretty early on not because of any rule but because there was foreshadowing and they never introduced any other viable love interests. I like Zutara and actually thought it had a chance in Season 1, but that's just the way it happened.
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 16, 2008 2:33:40 GMT -5
I didn't say I didn't get it. The why was a rhetorical question I used to make a point on how that reasoning didn't seem right to me.
I know Katara has a black-and-white view on things, but I was referring to the way she acted. The way she talked to Aang and Sokka was not like her at all, and you could even hear it in her tone. I think once she got away from those two and it was her and Zuko, she was a little less extreme and more believable, but I really didn't think it was like her to be so rude to Aang and Sokka, despite her feelings about her mother's killer.
I agree completely. Being rabid and looking too deeply into something are different. I disagreed with a lot of her points, since she seemed to analyze them in a way to fit Zutara, when it really doesn't have anything to do with the pairing.
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aurawind
Iroh
Proud supporter of Jai !!
Posts: 191
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Post by aurawind on Aug 17, 2008 8:42:37 GMT -5
I support Zusong, but between Maiko and Zutara I prefer Zutara.
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
Posts: 5,061
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Post by Ana on Aug 17, 2008 10:16:28 GMT -5
The way she talked to Aang and Sokka was not like her at all, and you could even hear it in her tone. I think once she got away from those two and it was her and Zuko, she was a little less extreme and more believable, but I really didn't think it was like her to be so rude to Aang and Sokka, despite her feelings about her mother's killer. Katara's tone didn't say that to me. It said Katara was clearly in a terrible place full of terrible rage and was letting that drive her. She lost her mother and then her father went off to war. That is going to leave scars and frankly, if someone hurt or killed my mother, I'd want revenge too. As for Zuko, they actually brought out the worst in each other in The Southern Raiders. In his want of Katara's acceptance, and probably his own Mommy issues, he indulges in the kind of cynicism he had been trying hard to move past. That's why (also, this is getting back on-topic and everyone needs to follow) he needs Mai and not Katara. Zuko and Katara both have such passion and "my way or the high way" view that getting them together would just be explosive. But Mai and Zuko pull each other into the middle so they aren't caring too much or too little. Not funny. Next time add something helpful to the topic.
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Post by Amira on Aug 17, 2008 21:43:55 GMT -5
I agree, Ana. Katara and Zuko in TSR did bring out the worst in each other. Katara's attitude was horrible and Zuko only fed it, even to the point he ridiculed Aang and his notions of forgiveness (which to me was just awful because the Gaang and Aang had forgiven him!). She had no check. Aang was her check. Just as Mai and Zuko check each other and you saw that in the Beach. You saw it in TBR. There is a sense of checks and balances with Mai and Zuko, neither is afraid to call out the other's behavior or stupidity.
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