Ana
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Post by Ana on Aug 10, 2008 15:22:43 GMT -5
There was no buildup to it, only a flashback that revealed a childhood crush Mai had for him. Well, no there was Mai's smile in "Return to Omashu" and Zuko White Knighting Mai in said flashback. I really do get why you're frustrated with the lack of introduction, but there is a big difference between "wtf where did come from" and "this lack of context frustrates me". It didn't really though. I wouldn't call Maiko just randoms "Maikouts" post The Headband. Every other episode they were in after we saw a new side of their relationship and the relationship grew. Seriously, I don’t see how going from this where they really aren’t expressing their feelings all that well to this where Mai shows her feelings well enough that she giggles includes no development. Mai never said there were perks to being his girlfriend. She said "I guess there are some perks that come with being royalty. Though, there is annoying stuff too, like that all-day war meeting coming up." . As for "ordering more servants around", Mai saw Zuko being happy while ordering servants around before so I don't see why she wouldn't think it'd make him happy again. And she mentions benefit of her boyfriend being the Fire Lord as a means to get her out of jail. Honestly, I find the idea of Mai using Zuko silly since she made her most romantic declaration about him when he was considered a traitor. What I'm getting at, though, is you used Mai's risking of her life as proof of love, yet you said friends risk their lives and save each other all the time. That means Mai risking her life from Zuko means nothing more than any other time someone's risked their lives. That's where you contradicted yourself, though I'd like to know if you have an explanation, or if I read something wrong. Well, I'm not jillrg so I can't clarify any contraindication she may have made but I'm going to say why I think Mai saving is a sgin of love and Zuko saving Katara is just something friends do. My reason is: that's what the show told me. When Mai saved Zuko, she still called him the "jerk who dumped her" but she risked prison guards and Azula because, well, he was still her jerk. Also note that Mai was able to do that in the first place because her love for Zuko helped her express herself. But Zuko saved Katara because he's so good now that he wouldn't have let Azula hit anyone. Not to downplay his feelings for Katara but that was an instance (among many instances!) that showed the great-ness of love other than romantic love. Actually, IMO it would be awful if it was romantic love because that would imply something that great can only come from romantic love and Mai's sacrifice would have been for nothing. That said, my vote obviously goes to Maiko. Zuko and Katara's relationship did go through more change than Mai and Zuko's relationship but they wouldn't work well romantically at all. "The Southern Raiders" showed they don't have compatible personalities but "The Beach" showed Mai and Zuko do have compatible personalities. Tons of episodes showed how Mai and Zuko love each other and how it was benefiting to them but "The Ember Island Players"/"Sozin's Comet: The Old Masters" in particular showed how Zuko and Katara don't like each other that way and would much rather be friends. Not to mention, with Mai Zuko has a person who loves him the most but Katara is so focused on Aang he'd just end up just being second best.
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Aug 10, 2008 15:48:12 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I just can't look at all the Zutara in the last few episodes and think nothing of it.
People have brought up the point that Maiko is realistic because they act like how teenagers act when they're in a relationship.
I'd like to point out in Ember Island Players... Zuko makes Aang scoot over so he can sit next to Katara. If that's not realistic, I don't know what is. All the time I see people making sure they sit next to their crushes, etc. Then later, they're always denying being a couple. Though it's true, I've witnessed loads of people do things exactly like that when really they have a crush on the person. Zuko also asked Katara specifically to come fight Azula with him. Personally, when I have a crush on someone, I take every chance I can get to be with them.
And then there is the sacrifice. Zuko was willing to have himself killed to save Katara, and he did it without thinking. He saw Azula was going to hurt her, and couldn't think about anything but saving her. He couldn't reason out enough to just redirect the lightning. I personally feel that this wasn't about showing the greatness of non-romantic love. It seemed like something deeper.
And I don't buy the ending. There was a lot of subtext pointing one way, and the ending was the total opposite.
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 10, 2008 16:48:23 GMT -5
That's my problem with the canon couples. It seems like the only reasoning for them is that the creators made it happen. It's like they are together, therefore they don't need any development. The development is all assumed or created by imagination.
Zutara on the other hand, they have all this development for their relationship, yet they don't end up together. For me, character and relationship development is very important. I would say that's a reason I loved Zutara, because of how their attitudes toward each other (particularly Katara) built on events and changed throughout the series. For example, he betrayed her and she held on to those hurt and bitter feelings.
Seeing them as a couple or seeing her have a crush on him does not count as development to me. Development means building and changing based on interactions and events. Maiko, from what I saw, had none of that. Mai was mad at Zuko for leaving her without even talking to her face, but we don't see why those feelings changed. From what it looked like to me, it wasn't a real change, it was just a temporary anger at Zuko for what he did but she got over it because she realized she still loved him anyway. Zuko was with her when he came back and was in the fire nation, but then he left all that behind to join Aang. Going back to Mai seems like backtracking. She was part of his life when he was in the Fire Nation at the beginning of Season 3, where he was the perfect son, but not himself.
I don't know if I explained that real well, but basically that it seems like he's going back to what he was at the beginning of season 3 by going back to Mai. It's not that extreme, but the symbolism of it seems that way.
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jillrg
Avatar Korra
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Post by jillrg on Aug 10, 2008 17:06:40 GMT -5
I'd like to point out in Ember Island Players... Zuko makes Aang scoot over so he can sit next to Katara. Actually, he tells Aang, "Just sit next to me." That's Zukaang.
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Post by mindbender18 on Aug 10, 2008 17:14:35 GMT -5
.....So? He didn't do that just to sit next to Katara, he just sat down, completely oblivious to everything that was going on. But then again.....he did tell Aang to sit next to him, so i'm guessing Aang's the one he has a crush on, yes? Anyway, there's wasn't anything that even remotely pointed to Zuko having a crush on Katara. In fact.... Oh yes, Zuko's practically drooling over her . Seriously, this is another case of Zutarians seeing what they want to see. It was made clear as the scar of his face that Zuko didn't want anything more from Katara than her friendship and that went double for Katara. ....Or maybe the reason could be because Katara is a very powerful bender who could aid him in the fight. -_- *facepalm* Katara is Zuko's friend and ally, so of course he tried to save her. Believe or not, Zuko is actually a decent guy and wouldn't want any of his friends to be harmed. This doesn't have a d*mn thing to do with "crushing on Katara." He would've done the same exact thing if that person was Aang (especially), Sokka, Suki, or Toph. *shrugs* It doesn't really matter what you buy, the fact is Kataang/Maiko obviously happened and Zutara obviously didn't. All of that "foreshadowing and subtext" bullcrap was confirmed to be just that, bullcrap. A case of people pulling stuff out there behind. (which was made even clearer at SDCC) Okay there was absolutely no romance between Zuko and Katara in the finale, so I haven't a clue what you mean. Positive interaction =/= destined to be together and make steambabies. Having Zuko and Katara fight together was just a nice full circle ending from when they fought against each other in the other two finales. It's not M & B's problem that people twisted it into something it wasn't supposed to be and got mad when it didn't happen the way they wanted. There wasn't any deception, so stop crying about it.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 10, 2008 17:19:23 GMT -5
Karma, mindbender.
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Aug 10, 2008 17:28:28 GMT -5
I'd like to point out in Ember Island Players... Zuko makes Aang scoot over so he can sit next to Katara. Actually, he tells Aang, "Just sit next to me." That's Zukaang. Again, there is a funny thing called subtext. You have to look beyond the "what"s and think about the "why"s. All of them walk in, and Zuko goes and sits in between Katara and Aang. Aang protests. That's why Zuko said "You can just sit next to me." He wasn't saying it in a flirty tone of voice, or like it was his ultimate goal to have Aang sit next to him. It was dismissive, telling him to just let it go. Not Zukaang. Now think: what would be Zuko's motivation for this? Maybe he just wanted to be on the front row? Well, then he wouldn't have protested to scooting over and letting Aang sit where he wanted. So what else could it be? Hm, well. We know from the Beach that Zuko likes passionate girls. And he did just come back from a ninja mission with the very passionate, pretty, and powerful Katara. They bonded and even hugged. But, of course, Zuko couldn't possibly have a crush on her. He's too busy fawning over his ex, whom he locked up and hasn't mentioned in several episodes. mindbender- I didn't say deception. I said subtext. I'm getting really sick of people putting words into my mouth. I didn't say anything about steambabies, and I'm not crying because Zutara didn't happen. I don't think I've ever said that I cried because I didn't get the ending I would have preferred. Generalizations about the entire population of Zutarians don't always apply to every person in every discussion. I believe we've had this problem before. I know I'm in no position to say this, but you should really add more to your post than just that. It didn't add to the discussion, and I believe it says specifically in the rules to put more in your post than just "I'm giving you karma."
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 10, 2008 17:39:00 GMT -5
He would have sat next to Aang either way. The only difference is he was on his right rather than his left.
The whole thing about them denying liking each other is not completely valid either. Katara said that Aang was just a good friend earlier in the season, so by that reasoning then Kataang shouldn't happen either, but it did. Also the reason they both deny it is because they aren't boyfriend/girlfriend, that doesn't always mean there's no feelings. I see it all the time where two people like each other but when someone mentions them as girlfriend and boyfriend, they deny it. It's because the other person doesn't know your feelings, and usually you're trying to hide it. I'm not saying they do have feelings for each other at this point, but they said they weren't the other person's boyfriend/girlfriend, not that they didn't like them. Ember Island players, the same thing goes. They scoot away because it's awkward. It doesn't show any clear feelings other than how awkward it is, being that they aren't actually together.
I would like to say mindbender made some decent points, but the rude way that you presented them made it harder to accept seriously. The subtext was Zuko and Katara's connection, and how their relationship grew, which it did. The end relationship was not romantic, but I think it very well could have. The "bullcrap" also was not pulled out of our behinds. We interpreted things differently, and for all we know the writers and animators working on those parts put it in. We know Mike and Bryan wanted Kataang and Maiko, but they did not dictate every part of every episode, so for all we know someone on the writing staff is a Zutarian who just dropped little hints in. With how big and popular the ship was, it's hard to believe that it was entirely pulled out of nowhere. I saw something that could be between the two characters, and because there are so many other people who saw it too, I know it's not just my own interpretation.
edit:
BPT: I'm glad you cleared that up. I didn't think you were "crying" or complaining about "deception" though I couldn't make any comments about that since it wasn't me. I agree, though, it's what I meant about Zutarian interpretation, which is the interpretation of certain events and the characters not something pulled out of our "behinds."
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Post by Purplejay on Aug 10, 2008 17:52:12 GMT -5
I believe that the development for Zuko and Katara's relationship was just for friendship. They were enemies at the start, and now, they're so close that they don't give a second thought about saving each other. They've come a long way, once you think about it, and I think that's purely what the development was supposed to show: two enemies becoming friends. Romantic development would likely be along the lines of Kataang- friends in the beginning, and the relationship progressing from there. Zutara actually could've been plausible if the Katara/Aang relationship hadn't already been in play. But with Mai and Zuko, they've already had that backstory. They weren't enemies when they were younger, they were acquaintances, victims of Azula's persecution. Yet, Mai had been Azula's close friend, one of the only people she trusted, and I believe that her betrayal of that friendship- choosing Zuko over Azula- was the building and changing that led up to the high point of Mai and Zuko's relationship. Zuko was bent on defeating Azula, and would've tried to do it no matter what. At the point of the Agni Kai between the two, Katara was closer to Zuko than Azula was, and he didn't have as much conflict with himself when choosing to save her life and give up his for her. However, when Mai chose Zuko over Azula, she was giving up a lifelong friend and companion for her boyfriend. It might have been impulsive, it might have been just because she changed her mind about Zuko at the last minute, but the fact that she chose somebody who left her over one of her only friends was the point. And the "I love Zuko more than I fear you." You could easily say that Zuko loved Katara more than he had respect for Azula, and you would be right. Azula was his nemesis, his rival, and he wanted to beat her at all costs. But in Mai's case, Azula had been her companion. She hadn't been an enemy to Mai, hadn't done anything life threatening to her. But she chose Zuko over her anyways, and she knew the consequences of breaking bonds with the Princess of the Fire Nation, her friend. It's actually interesting- both Zuko and Mai were willing to risk getting shot full of lightning by Azula to save people they cared about. And as for Zuko going back to Mai and returning to his lifestyle as the "perfect prince", I believe that it's not the case. Mai was the hardest thing to leave behind, like jillrg said earlier. It was easy to let go of his father and turn traitor against him, but it was hard to leave Mai, somebody who genuinely cared about him. Zuko realized that his father wasn't the person he had thought he was and regarded Azula with nothing more than suspicion. Mai was the only person he knew who really cared for him, besides his uncle. Returning to their relationship doesn't mean that he's reverting to what his father expected him to have been, because all the things that caused him to say that about himself- his father, Azula- are all gone. I'm not trying to attack anybody, if it sounds like it! I just wanted to address some of the points I've heard stated here. Sorry.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
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Post by nandireya on Aug 10, 2008 18:02:42 GMT -5
I know your feelings about Maiko, but since when do you hate Zutara? I've never liked it, I've just never been as vocal about it...the rabid Zutarians scare me. It has slightly more appeal...with it's potential Han Solo/Princess Leia feistiness...but it's main drawback, for me at least, is that Katara has never appealed to me as a character. I can't really see my favourite main character with my least favourite main character. That said...these are the only two Zuko ships that I don't care for...outside the major crack and slash ones. Toko, Soko, Zujin, Zue, Suzuki, Zulee...you'll find me in all those threads. These two...never go into them
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
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Post by Ana on Aug 10, 2008 18:09:14 GMT -5
That's my problem with the canon couples. It seems like the only reasoning for them is that the creators made it happen. It's like they are together, therefore they don't need any development. The development is all assumed or created by imagination. That's not... what I was trying to say. I don't just accept the canon blindly, you know. I entered the fandom shipping fanon couples and in most of my other fandoms that's what I ship. But in Avatar, the relationships are done and developed so beautifully that I couldn't help but fall in love with them. That's what happened with Maiko though. For instance, take their interaction in the finale versus their interaction in The Headband. Zuko's "So does this mean you don't hate me anymore?" was a callback to when their relationship wasn't much beyond non-hatred. Then Mai says "I think it means I actually kind of like you" and it shows their relationship grew past that and she forgave him (which I doubt she could have done back then). Maybe he just wanted to be on the front row? That's what I think. Honestly, I get subtext but even with that I think Zuko having a crush on Katara doesn't make sense. Zuko looks at the ground to get to his set in EIP when he could have shot little glances at Katara. When it's suggested Zuko and Katara could be an item, he makes "eww" faces instead of secretly enjoying the idea. When he sees Mai again he looks utterly ecstatic and goes in for a hug instead of, like, missing Katara. Actually, we learned from The Beach Zuko likes it when Mai is passionate. There's a difference. You are correct. I am in the position to say this so: jillrg please follow this and add more content to your post. Also, mindbener, please add more respect to other members in your post. Katara said that Aang was just a good friend earlier in the season, so by that reasoning then Kataang shouldn't happen either, but it did. Katara said this earlier in season three? The only time I can think of when she said something like that is "He's not my boyfriend!" in the second episode and "He's a sweet little guy just like Momo" in The Fortuneteller. And those were before Katara start seeing Aang That Way so it makes sense.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 10, 2008 18:16:48 GMT -5
I know your feelings about Maiko, but since when do you hate Zutara? I've never liked it, I've just never been as vocal about it...the rabid Zutarians scare me. I definitely sympathize. It has slightly more appeal...with it's potential Han Solo/Princess Leia feistiness...but it's main drawback, for me at least, is that Katara has never appealed to me as a character. I can't really see my favourite main character with my least favourite main character. That said...these are the only two Zuko ships that I don't care for...outside the major crack and slash ones. Toko, Soko, Zujin, Zue, Suzuki, Zulee...you'll find me in all those threads. These two...never go into them Yes, Toko is so adorable and sweet. I'm not a big Star Wars fan, but I actually get a Solo/Leia vibe from Maiko. They're both... well, this page describes the relationship best: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellExcuseMePrincess
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 10, 2008 18:25:30 GMT -5
The thing is that they didn't show any of the development. Mai was gone after TBR and we don't see any reasoning for why she forgave him. It was almost like she only decided to get back with him because now he was the Fire Lord, which she even mentions that perk. She was referring to getting out of jail, but she mentioned her Uncle pulling strings before that, so I'd assume that was the main reason. She wasn't technically with him because they were broken up until this point, which is why the wording bothered me.
Forgiveness and that whole path is appealing, but only when we see that development. I didn't see that with Maiko. We have to assume she forgave him, but why? She hadn't even seen him throughout this whole thing, so it was all just her own decision based on her own feelings and the past, not anything he did for her. We know he didn't get her out of jail, her uncle did. This is also a reason I didn't like Southern Raiders. Katara forgave Zuko, but why? Because he went on a mission with her to get revenge? They didn't interact very much, and I just didn't see anything that would trigger her to forgive him after how hurt and angry she was about his betrayal.
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say "series" not "season." I was referring to The Fortuneteller. And it was before she saw him that way, so the point I'm making is why could it not be that this is just before Katara sees Zuko that way? They haven't been friends as long, so for love to emerge by the finale wasn't realistic, and I didn't expect it. I am just saying in fanon, it's still easy to imagine that their friendship is only a beginning. The series is over, so what happens after is just left to our imagination, and I see nothing wrong with each shipper to imagine it how they want.
I mean, for Zutara, since it didn't happen, it's all about potential now. Zutarians are going to think that there is still potential for them because of the good friendship end they got.
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
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Post by Ana on Aug 13, 2008 23:11:14 GMT -5
The thing is that they didn't show any of the development. Mai was gone after TBR and we don't see any reasoning for why she forgave him. It was almost like she only decided to get back with him because now he was the Fire Lord, which she even mentions that perk. She was referring to getting out of jail, but she mentioned her Uncle pulling strings before that, so I'd assume that was the main reason. Yeah, they did. They showed it in TBR when Mai was mad as heck at Zuko but still saved his life. They showed that Mai already forgave him because she loves him (you know, more than she feared Azula which resulted in Azula’s meltdown). Zuko only asked because their arc show was pretty much about Zuko's insecurity about her love for him and whether she would still love him when all was said and done. Which, of course, she did and that’s another reason the whole Mai using Zuko for the perks is so silly. Her uncle may have gotten her out of jail (also, more bonus points for Maiko: they both have cool Uncles that love them more than their dads) but being involved with the new Fire Lord doesn’t hurt your chances at things. Huh? The text explained why Katara forgave Zuko in the episode very well. Remember when Zuko was talking with Sokka and said "I think.. she’s misplacing her anger about her mother with anger with me"? Well, that’s what happened. Katara placed of all her anger and pain from her mother’s death on Zuko and when he took her on that mission she finally separated the two. She forgave Zuko because she forgave herself for not saving her mother. Because at the end of The Fortuneteller Katara has a revelation that Aang is more than just a sweet little guy and is a potential boyfriend. If Zutara was meant to happen this revelation would have happened with Zuko too. Yet in the finale Katara just had another revelation about Aang and wasn’t confused about her feelings for him anymore. You are right that in the sense you have enough emotional moments in the finale to change the Z/K relationship however you want. It is okay to want some other romance than what the canon gave you. But, for me, the canon romances and the canon Zutara friendship is so perfect that I’ve... kind of grown to resent Zutara. I mean, I know I shouldn’t rebuttal days later to say something that rude but it's very important to me. I just love the fact that Mai isn’t your typical plucky heroine but still gets her happy ending and everything finally came full circle for peace at Katara’s "I think I should be thanking you. *smile*". With that, Zuko is one of them forever and ever. If you want to make it more that’s fine but it was really perfect as is for me.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 14, 2008 8:00:03 GMT -5
I just love the fact that Mai isn’t your typical plucky heroine but still gets her happy ending Me, too. I'm glad the writers of Avatar know it takes more to make a three-dimensional female character than being just "plucky." If they talk about that in that presentation on the Season 3 dvd boxed set, I'll probably buy it. everything finally came full circle for peace in general at Katara’s "I think I should be thanking you. *smile*". With that, Zuko is one of them forever and ever. If you want to make it more that’s fine but it was really perfect as is for me. Exactly; that wasn't an "I love you" conclusion; it was a "The arc of my struggle to forgive you has come full circle" conclusion. I don't think Katara ever would have been shipped with Zuko if she hadn't been the only main female character in the cast in the first season. A (n intentional) fangirl magnet like Zuko "needs" to be paired with someone, and Katara was the only option. I mean, Zuko was being shipped with Jun once the existence of her character was announced before that episode ever aired. Even I entertained the thought of Zuko and Katara, all the while knowing it would never work because Katara was clearly interested in and clearly written to be with the hero (who was so sweet and lovable, he deserved his girl more than Zuko). I think some people bring some pre-established "rules" of how relationships should be written ("Opposites attract," so Fire and Water MUST go together) to the table; the same thing caused the Harry/Hermione shippers to get their hopes up (because they thought "The hero and the female friend of his trio MUST fall in love"). But if there's one thing Avatar's good at, it's breaking all the rules. ...Actually, they didn't break the opposites attract rule ("Your temper's out of control! You blow up over every little thing!" "Well, at least I feel something!") or the "People in love have to spend time shouting at each other and driving each other crazy" rule with Mai/Zuko. I still think canon Mai/Zuko has everything fanon gives to Zutara but more because Mai is so interesting.
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