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Post by superdoglac on Aug 9, 2008 14:34:41 GMT -5
Zutara.
Even if I didn't support Zutara I wouldn't like Maiko anyways. It was such a boring relationship and it seemed Mai just used Zuko to get what she wanted XP.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 9, 2008 15:26:10 GMT -5
it seemed Mai just used Zuko to get what she wanted XP. Such as...? If she was "using" Zuko, why would she risk her neck to save his lfie in TBR? At least she never (seriously) threatened to kill him.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 9, 2008 16:04:58 GMT -5
Yet, what do Zuko and Katara do in Zutara fan fiction?
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 9, 2008 16:17:27 GMT -5
Huh?
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Post by notreal on Aug 9, 2008 16:23:57 GMT -5
You can't exactly use fanfiction as your point during a debate. Shipping comes down to canon and canon alone, although many do like a certain ship when it comes down to the fandom's creations. Gacs' point is that Zutara's fans most likely support the chemistry in the show rather than that of fanfiction, which can not be used as a life line for any shipping debate.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 9, 2008 16:51:23 GMT -5
But if Zutara fans don't like Mai and Zuko's chemistry, why make Zuko and Katara act just like that in fan fiction? My point was there is a double standard, but I was trying to say that gently.
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Post by notreal on Aug 9, 2008 17:02:26 GMT -5
However, the few Zutara fan fics you have read do not equal the entire Zutara fandom. Plus, actions such as "Maikouts" do not equal Chemistry, however strongly you may think so. A lot of people just don't like Maiko as a ship, fan fiction does not play into it and I'm wondering how it could be used as a plausible argument other than the huge generalization that you just came up with, lulz.
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 9, 2008 19:37:21 GMT -5
Shay those are great points, and I agree with what you said.
I get what jillrg is trying to say, because there are Zutara fans who simply use lust in fanfics and such, and love it for the "sexual tension" or stuff like that. However, most of the fans, at least most I know and including myself, like Zutara because of a deep connection we see develop between them, and because of a chemistry we see between the two character types. If Zuko and Katara had gotten together and were making out all the time out of nowhere, I wouldn't like it. It's why I hate Maiko. There was no buildup to it, only a flashback that revealed a childhood crush Mai had for him.
Honestly if there was a buildup and I could see a connection Zuko and Mai shared, I would be more accepting of it. I might not really like it, just because I'm a Zutarian, but it would at least make sense for them to end up together. TBR was the only episode that gave the couple any justice, and I got a better view of them as a couple. I was just disappointed it took that long to give us anything besides random "Maikouts" for them.
And the whole Mai just using Zuko for getting what she wanted, I felt that, too. When Zuko asked if she could have anything in the world she orders some elaborate fruit platter or something, when she mentions the perks of being his girlfriend, and when he's troubled she brings up "ordering more servants around" as a way to make him feel better, though it seemed it was just something she wanted to do. It was scenes like that that made me go from thinking the couple was just random and boring to actually hating them together. Even in the finale when he gets back she mentions the benefit of her boyfriend being the Fire Lord. It just seemed that was more important since she brings it up and takes advantage of it so much.
I could go on even further as to why I don't like them and why I thought it was random and awkward that they ended up together, but I don't want to make my post too long...
But anyway, my vote is obviously Zutara because of their connection and potential I see for them. I also love the whole path that their relationship took. They were enemies, and then she is the first to see him as more of a person and not just an enemy. She learns that he lost his mother like her, and forgives him. He betrays her, and it greatly affects her. She has an even stronger feeling and opinion about him, and is the most emotional when he tries to join the group. Then he earns her forgiveness again, and they become close friends. There's a clear development of their relationship, and a whole path to it. I know it only ended in a friendship, but even then it seemed to leave an open end for it to eventually lead to romance, at least in my own imagination it would ;]
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Post by notreal on Aug 9, 2008 20:11:08 GMT -5
Thank you, SE. That was a great post and I find myself agreeing with the majority of what you said.
It is stupid to hate a ship just because it's your "rival ship." Honestly, it's not so much that I dislike Maiko because it's Zutara's rival, it is that I don't like how it was presented. Over all, S3 Maiko was about superficiality and just...making it canon without bothering with character development.
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ilyFiRE<3
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Post by ilyFiRE<3 on Aug 9, 2008 20:15:38 GMT -5
i dont really support zutara or maiko...but i'd choose MAiKO. theyre both weird in their own way which makes them a cool couple XD
aaand i couldnt really imagine zutara...sorta....[iono]
(just my opinion...dont yell at me X])
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Kana
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Post by Kana on Aug 9, 2008 21:12:13 GMT -5
Shay those are great points, and I agree with what you said.
I get what jillrg is trying to say, because there are Zutara fans who simply use lust in fanfics and such, and love it for the "sexual tension" or stuff like that. However, most of the fans, at least most I know and including myself, like Zutara because of a deep connection we see develop between them, and because of a chemistry we see between the two character types. If Zuko and Katara had gotten together and were making out all the time out of nowhere, I wouldn't like it. It's why I hate Maiko. There was no buildup to it, only a flashback that revealed a childhood crush Mai had for him.
Honestly if there was a buildup and I could see a connection Zuko and Mai shared, I would be more accepting of it. I might not really like it, just because I'm a Zutarian, but it would at least make sense for them to end up together. TBR was the only episode that gave the couple any justice, and I got a better view of them as a couple. I was just disappointed it took that long to give us anything besides random "Maikouts" for them.
And the whole Mai just using Zuko for getting what she wanted, I felt that, too. When Zuko asked if she could have anything in the world she orders some elaborate fruit platter or something, when she mentions the perks of being his girlfriend, and when he's troubled she brings up "ordering more servants around" as a way to make him feel better, though it seemed it was just something she wanted to do. It was scenes like that that made me go from thinking the couple was just random and boring to actually hating them together. Even in the finale when he gets back she mentions the benefit of her boyfriend being the Fire Lord. It just seemed that was more important since she brings it up and takes advantage of it so much.
I could go on even further as to why I don't like them and why I thought it was random and awkward that they ended up together, but I don't want to make my post too long...
But anyway, my vote is obviously Zutara because of their connection and potential I see for them. I also love the whole path that their relationship took. They were enemies, and then she is the first to see him as more of a person and not just an enemy. She learns that he lost his mother like her, and forgives him. He betrays her, and it greatly affects her. She has an even stronger feeling and opinion about him, and is the most emotional when he tries to join the group. Then he earns her forgiveness again, and they become close friends. There's a clear development of their relationship, and a whole path to it. I know it only ended in a friendship, but even then it seemed to leave an open end for it to eventually lead to romance, at least in my own imagination it would ;] YOU DESERVE KARMA FOR THAT AMAZING POST. What I prefer about Zutara is in fact that they actually went down a road in their relationship, that we the viewers saw. Unlike Maiko, where we see in a flashback that Mai had a crush on Zuko. Whats even worse is that we the start of their romance in a comic, and not in the actual show. You'd think that if they were truly meant to be we would actually see their relationship's start. The only real development between the two was in The Beach and The Boiling Rock, and even then Mai never seems to really understand Zuko fully. Another reason is that Azula seems to be the one behind Maiko, seen in the comic "Going Home Again". Azula manipulation Mai and Zuko to get Zuko to go back to the Fire Nation.
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Post by supersexybeastie on Aug 9, 2008 21:44:12 GMT -5
Shay those are great points, and I agree with what you said.
I get what jillrg is trying to say, because there are Zutara fans who simply use lust in fanfics and such, and love it for the "sexual tension" or stuff like that. However, most of the fans, at least most I know and including myself, like Zutara because of a deep connection we see develop between them, and because of a chemistry we see between the two character types. If Zuko and Katara had gotten together and were making out all the time out of nowhere, I wouldn't like it. It's why I hate Maiko. There was no buildup to it, only a flashback that revealed a childhood crush Mai had for him.
Honestly if there was a buildup and I could see a connection Zuko and Mai shared, I would be more accepting of it. I might not really like it, just because I'm a Zutarian, but it would at least make sense for them to end up together. TBR was the only episode that gave the couple any justice, and I got a better view of them as a couple. I was just disappointed it took that long to give us anything besides random "Maikouts" for them.
And the whole Mai just using Zuko for getting what she wanted, I felt that, too. When Zuko asked if she could have anything in the world she orders some elaborate fruit platter or something, when she mentions the perks of being his girlfriend, and when he's troubled she brings up "ordering more servants around" as a way to make him feel better, though it seemed it was just something she wanted to do. It was scenes like that that made me go from thinking the couple was just random and boring to actually hating them together. Even in the finale when he gets back she mentions the benefit of her boyfriend being the Fire Lord. It just seemed that was more important since she brings it up and takes advantage of it so much.
I could go on even further as to why I don't like them and why I thought it was random and awkward that they ended up together, but I don't want to make my post too long...
But anyway, my vote is obviously Zutara because of their connection and potential I see for them. I also love the whole path that their relationship took. They were enemies, and then she is the first to see him as more of a person and not just an enemy. She learns that he lost his mother like her, and forgives him. He betrays her, and it greatly affects her. She has an even stronger feeling and opinion about him, and is the most emotional when he tries to join the group. Then he earns her forgiveness again, and they become close friends. There's a clear development of their relationship, and a whole path to it. I know it only ended in a friendship, but even then it seemed to leave an open end for it to eventually lead to romance, at least in my own imagination it would ;] Wow... You took the words right out of my mouth *karma!* I really do think that if Maiko had more development and build up, it would have been an interesting ship. Although, I'm not saying that if maiko was more developed, I would like it. I'm a Zutarian through and through. And even though it wasn't made cannon, I still love it. Bryke made the show the way they wanted to, and I'm adult enough to accept their choices. Besides, friendship!zutara had so much development that there is no way I could be upset with the results.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Aug 9, 2008 22:35:11 GMT -5
I see a lot of depth to Maiko. Courtly love, for starters - the prince and the governor's daughter. Then there's the complication of them both being villains (when they get together), and the heartbreak it leads to when Zuko changes sides. His relationship with Mai made Zuko's changing sides hard when the choice otherwise would ahve been easy, since he'd been disillusioned about his father and his nation and the cause of the war. It wasn't hard to leave any of that, but it was hard to leave Mai behind.
And it's realistic; couples in the real world make out and hold each other and talk goofy, especially teenagers. Mai can hardly be blamed for having a crush on Zuko, and Zuko can hardly be blamed for enjoying being in love. I find it refreshing they're so open about their feelings from the start, unlike most couples (like Aang and Katara) who take an entire series to even get together, let alone have time to behave like a couple in love.
And people don't risk their lives for a shallow love they're in only to get fruit tarts. Katara threatens to kill Zuko, Mai saves his life. No contest IMHO.
P.S. I infer from the existence of the Zutara ship and others (particularly in anime fandoms like Evangelion) there's supposed to be something romantic about hate and death threats and deeply held grudges, but once again, that's unrealistic.* It may be interesting to watch, but not to experience. From Mai's and Zuko's point of view, their relationship is the best. It makes them feel so happy. That's what love should be like.
* I realize Katara and Zuko have become friends and fought together and no longer hate each other, but characters on this show fight and risk their lives for each other and protect each other from certain death all the time. Any friends would.
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fuego
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Post by fuego on Aug 10, 2008 0:35:49 GMT -5
Most people who have a problem with Maiko...is mostly because of Mai in general and how the viewers react to her.
Though I do find it funny that there a girl name name Mae who the voice actor for Katara and then there a character name Mai. So is Zuko the new kevin bacon game ;D
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Post by Scarlett Ember on Aug 10, 2008 0:49:05 GMT -5
jillrg you seemed to contradict yourself, there...
You mentioned that Mai risked her life for Zuko, which means it wasn't just about getting perks. The way you said it, it seems as if that proves that she loves him (which I won't argue, because she said she loved him. I still believe she was presented to be very interested in the perks of being with Zuko, which bothered me). Zuko risked his life for Katara. He took Azula's bolt for her, which seemed like a higher risk than fighting off prison guards. One difference is Mai knew going into it what she was doing. She had to make a conscious decision to go and save Zuko. He left her, she was really upset with how he dumped her and then he goes and locks her up. I'm sure it wasn't a clear choice to save him, I'm sure she debated it because of what he did for her. That's not a point I'm trying to make, though, since that's just speculation. What I'm getting at is she had a chance to think and figure out what she was going to do, and weigh the risks. Zuko acted on impulse, and to me an instant reaction for someone shows their true colors because it's pure instinct.
That's how I see that, but it doesn't at all prove one way or the other, just something I wanted to point out. What I'm getting at, though, is you used Mai's risking of her life as proof of love, yet you said friends risk their lives and save each other all the time. That means Mai risking her life from Zuko means nothing more than any other time someone's risked their lives. That's where you contradicted yourself, though I'd like to know if you have an explanation, or if I read something wrong.
I know that couples in the real world do what Mai and Zuko did. They were a couple, so I'm not surprised that they did. But that's all we really see of them. Granted there are couples in today's world that don't have any deep connection, but they don't last.
Zutara is not appealing because of the hatred between them. It's appealing because of the development between them. Redemption is a big part of that, and I think that's what's very appealing.
The other thing is that Zuko leaving Mai was hard, but I saw it a little different. Being with Mai seemed to just be something to confirm is position back at the fire nation. He was back home dating a fire nation noble and doing everything a good prince should do. But as Zuko said, being everything his father wanted to be wasn't him. When he left to join Aang he left Mai as well, so it seemed she was part of all that. It's why him going back to her after he went out and saved the world was so random and didn't make sense to me.
Ok it's late and I was doing something else between writing this, so sorry if there are any holes or if I missed something....but I'm too tired to read through it...x.x
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